Thoughts about educational systems

[Mercutio]

Goodbye random off topic thread in the Computers forum.

Also, maybe this should be stapled to "Something Random."

I have thoughts on topic but I shall post them at some time that isn't bedtime.

 

[udaman]

WTF? How is an educational background related to implementing a SSD? It doesn't take an Ivy League PhD to appreciate the benefits.

WTF LM, where did that SSD comment come from, I don't see anything related in this thread?

Btw, I think I scored higher than Steve Jobs (but of course Bill Gates was higher )...cause he didn't take it, or finish or something like that. But who's the smart one after all. SAT's LSAT's don't define success or intelligence.

Brooke Shields, was going to Princeton same time jtr was, she's got a supposed IQ of 160, pure genius; have you ever seen the woman interviewed, only Paris can make her seem smart .... :rotfl:

What's wrong with Berkeley LS? One of the most difficult LS's to get into is UCLA, cause the tuition is 1/2 what a private school like USC is. Think of all the 'winners' who graduated from Loyola Marymount LS. And then there is that wonderful white people's school, Pepperdine Univ in Malibu. Is Ken Star still there?

Oh then besides LMLS, there's Wash DC's Georgetown, that really smooth, posturing (like Johnny Cochran, with no flair) faux emotionalism attorney that was opposing council in my case, graduated from Georgetown...Fin' bastards. Want to rant Santilli, lets talk about how corrupt and 'good 'ol boys system the legal system in the USA is. What a complete joke it is, and i haven't had a drink all day...yet. How frivolous lawsuits are condoned and really encouraged by both Superior Ct Judges *and* the Appellate Ct Justices. I was before one of the most seasoned and acclaimed Appellate Division in CA., and they just ignored every damn thing, accually (I think a LS grad student intern must have written the decision) they truely took the pitbull female 250lb bitch attorney for the plaintiff's brief and wrote an exaggerated (as though it was being stated as fact, when there was no such wording in the record of the case!) *intentioally* because they new it would work wonders against me when I filed my lawsuit against all these scam artist attorney's just going through the motions, taking care of each other (one attorney blatantly committed perjury in a declaration he submitted in support of getting an emergency TRO against me---which I so carefully pointed out time and again in my briefs to no avail, and all the judges just looked the other way... I was astonished, Ken Star would say this attorney should be disbarred, but no...that's not how the game is played behind the scenes in the real world of the legal profession...where the good ol boys *all* take care of their own, most of the time).

Good thing I'm not drinking or this would go on for another few pgs, lol. Geez, I'm getting so worked up my contacts are drying out, can see what I'm typing now... hehe.

 

[udaman]

whew, ok, just had my 1st glass of wine tonight.

Back to schools. UCSB is the renowned party school of the UC system. UCSC, back before GS, was the laid-back, earthmother school to Berkeley's politicism (sure are a lot of hot Asian babes @Berkeley though, I should have gone there instead of UCLA, course if I was born a few decades later, UCLA would be good enough). All the enviro conscious people went to UCSC, least all the ones I knew from my h/s. Went to try to find cuttie (mentioned in SD's thread on film scanners) as she went there, she had an old Fiat 850 convertible, was living off campus in an old house with a bunch of bearded 'manly' guys, I think, wasn't there when I stopped by looking for her (umm, stalking her ). Was a kick, had to use the restrooms, only to find they were co-ed, everything was co-ed there. Guess they wanted to have lots of sex for the students or somethin???

Ah yes, can remember driving the old hand me down '66 Plymouth station wagon, which SC PD gave me a citation for excessive smoke (rings needed replacing), girl I knew from h/s a year ahead of me, white chick who was pretty thin, but had big hooters, was friends with another 'earthmother' type of homely looking girl in my case I was friends with for a while. Yeah, she recognized me on campus as she was floating around, lounging in the sun IIRC. Asked me if I would give her a ride back to her parents home in LA. How could I say no . Recall her bouncing, dancing like that Mitsubishi TV commercial, though to that song "Brick House"...good think I was able to focus on driving and not look at her while she was bouncing to the beat, would have crashed, lol. 6hrs with her, can't remember much of that, though it must not have been eventful, cause even though it was 30+ yrs ago, i still remember. Yeah, it was on my way back from a summer exploratory trip to Oregon to see if I wanted to attend Oregon Univ in Eugene or OSU in Corvalis.

OSU was so strange, for this city slicker. The international student body, and perfect strangers asking me if I needed help when I had the hood up in the parking lot, needed to tweak the choke on the carb for the SW...this was a grrrl co-ed asking me if I need help, and she wasn't homely tomboy either. How my life would have been different if I would have sucked it up and attended OSU...memories. I later learned they had a fair amout of Asian cutties there too, damn! I'm sure in another life I must have done something really bad, karma has fooked me up in this one.

 

[Handruin]

WTF LM, where did that SSD comment come from, I don't see anything related in this thread?

This entire thread was originally in the SSD thread and I moved all these posts out. That's why Lunar's comment is related to SSDs.

 

[Stereodude]

I think Udaman and Santilli are long lost cousins or something.

 

[Mercutio]

Here's my main thought on education in the USA:

Secondary Schooling (high school) needs to be longer, with a second degree awarded for completion of a full six years of schooling.

Associate's Degrees are largely not worth the paper they are printed on.
Jobs that 20 years ago did not require a degree now often require a four year degree.

I see job postings that include "4 year degree" but also "ability to clearly write and speak English" and "ability to follow written instructions."

Which speaks to the inflation of educational requirements as well as the devaluation of a college education.

My thought is that some of the stupid shit that colleges make every Freshman do should be rolled back into high school. "Communications 101?", "Intro to Microsoft Office?", Basic English composition and grammar, let alone remedial English and Math? Why are these things college-level subjects?

The truth is, a lot of that stuff is necessary for employment.
But four years of student loans shouldn't be.

It makes a lot of sense for a lot of those topics to be rolled up and presented to everyone at the high school level, especially when they're part of almost everyone's first couple of semesters of college, anyway. We could use the time to more fully re-mediate math and English skills, if need be, and to give students the time to get "bullshit" requirements out of the way.

It just seems like a win to me, if only because it might return some of the value to AS and BS degrees, and help people get more of a leg up on their university studies.

 

[Chewy509]

I guess all the above certainly highlights the deficiencies in modern education systems, where political statue weighs more than the need and/or capability of the individual student.

The Australian system basically works like this:

4-5 yr old - pre-school / prep (optional in some states)
6-12yr old - primary education
13 - 18 yr old - secondary education (aka high school).
Completion of high school, denotes completion of 12 yrs study.
18 - 22yr old - teritiary education (TAFE or University).
TAFE is rough equivalent of community college, where courses are more trade/hands-on focused than theory based.

Primary/secondary education is government funded, however you can choose for a private education. Tertiary education is primarily funded by students with some limited government funding, (government grants are available where applicable to students to assist).

TAFE awards maximum diploma level (equivalent to completion of 1st year or 2nd year University degree depending on subject).
University is required for degree and higher, eg Masters, PhD, etc. Most degrees are minimum 3 years, with 4yr being average for most Bachelor of Science/Engineering degrees.

As far as I'm aware, tertiary education is solely based on applicant capability (with some weight given for minority groups, but you'll never see a minority group get a course slot just because they are a minority). However in saying that, some University have a reputation for taking students simply because they can afford to pay for the course upfront (without the need for HECS (student loan)), irrespective of other applicants. Overseas students who barely speak English tend to take this route to get degrees in accounting, engineering, math, IT, etc.

ADF (Austalian Defence Force) runs it's own education system for those in the forces, and most 'trades' have equivalent TAFE/University qualifications. My personal equivalent is Adv. Diploma in Communications (ICT + RF), gained via the ADF.

Is the Australian system fair and workable, probably not ideal, but it does seem to work out ok.

But like the US, it's not uncommon to see requirements for University degrees for jobs that were typically done by high-school drop-outs 10-20 yrs ago. (eg, especially in public sector admin, bank clerks, etc).

 

[Chewy509]

My thought is that some of the stupid shit that colleges make every Freshman do should be rolled back into high school. "Communications 101?", "Intro to Microsoft Office?", Basic English composition and grammar, let alone remedial English and Math? Why are these things college-level subjects?

It may have been to the lower lever schools are so political bound, that they must pass everyone, so even a child who can not read at an adult level makes it through. Colleges are having to compensate for that.

"No child left behind" policy seems to ring a bell. (Yep, we even heard about that one, here in Oz).

 

[LunarMist]

We don't need no education.
We don't need no thought control.
No dark sarcasm in the classroom.
Teacher leave the kids alone.
Hey, teacher leave the kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall...

 

[jtr1962]

0.7GPA plus 1540SAT != Stanford.

I don't get why. I scored 1320/1600 on the SAT (570 verbal, 750 math), made Princeton and Yale (chose the former), and was wait-listed at MIT (ultimately didn't get in). No GPA at my high school. We used numerical marks with 100% being the highest. IIRC my average was about 96.1. Regarding the subject at hand, a good black female friend of mine in HS with scores very similar to mine did in fact make MIT. Yes, I was royally pissed even if I was happy for her. I know exactly what Greg is going through.

Oh, and it looks like I'm the village idiot now given my SAT score. But then again I only took it once. I know people who took it a few times, boosting their scores each time.

 

[ddrueding]

JTR, you managed a 96.1%....mine was closer to a 56% (just passing the absolutely mandatory classes with the minimum grade while not even attending those that were not required for graduation - I did the math.

I was able to work 40hrs/week through my last 2 years (age 15-17)

 

[jtr1962]

My average came at the expense of a lot of sleep. No free time to work or do anything else but study. Most of my friends were the same. My social life mostly consisted of the hour train ride home from school with my friends. Believe it or not I still miss those days. Something about working hard towards a future which is still a blank slate brings out the best in people. You thought anything was possible. You weren't yet jaded by life's usual setbacks. It's the optimism of me and my friends which I miss the most. I went from that into a paranoid skeptic who is actually surprised when things don't go wrong. I'm guessing Greg is probably also at that point, if not past it.

 

[Howell]

I applied to MIT. After meeting their graduates, I'm very glad that I didn't get in.

One of my friends was valedictorian at MIT. He's one of the more normal PHds I know.

Me: 1110/2.58

 

[Howell]

Me: 1110(SAT)/31(ACT)/2.58

Went to Purdue, denied at NCState, never heard back from Auburn. Really should have applied to GaTech as an in state student. I only applied to schools that did not require an essay.

Misplaced priorities anyone?

 

[udaman]

I don't get why. I scored 1320/1600 on the SAT (570 verbal, 750 math), made Princeton and Yale (chose the former), and was wait-listed at MIT (ultimately didn't get in). No GPA at my high school. We used numerical marks with 100% being the highest. IIRC my average was about 96.1. Regarding the subject at hand, a good black female friend of mine in HS with scores very similar to mine did in fact make MIT. Yes, I was royally pissed even if I was happy for her. I know exactly what Greg is going through.

Oh, and it looks like I'm the village idiot now given my SAT score. But then again I only took it once. I know people who took it a few times, boosting their scores each time.

Lol, jtr's score is *way* higher than my mediocre scores. But hey, I came from grade inflation era, and back then you only needed a 3.5 GPA, and I was @3.75. So in my application to UCLA, I refused to write the 'personal' paragraph (had to take remedial English, ie English 4 dummies in freshman year) saying that my GPA assured me of getting in...smartarse I was. Think my combined was something like <1100, can't recall. Higher in math but not that high. I remember some of the 'brains' in my high school senior class, some of them aced it, got perfect 1600, others pretty close. David what's his name, straight A's near 1600 on the SAT, I recall he was smokin weed in his senior year...while I never took any drugs in high school.

As smart as some of my classmates were, they never really impressed me with anything other than they were really good at studies. They didn't seem to be smart in any other ways, no street smarts, crappy taste in music or fashion, you know, the important stuff . Couldn't fix a engine problem, or get their hands all greasy.

While I was always the tinkerer, always inquisitive, how things work, engines, computers, biology, cameras etc. And somehow, those smart people, well they didn't seem smarter than me. Few years into college, while visiting with a friend, I met one of his friends who had a new g/f. Not the prettiest, not the smartest or in anyway appealing as far as I could see, but huge knockers, like Pam Anderson. And yet this guy of 19 was starting med school, after graduating with straight A's from UCLA in just 3yrs, as he was of 'genius' IQ.

Brings me to the dSLR thread, and person I mentioned with the D3 and Gitzo tripod. Just did a Google search on him (yeah, I'm a stalker with low IQ and SAT scores )...:rotfl: I did not realize he was *that* much of a character:

Here's a pix of his now recently retired D2x? I don't see how he could get by with that thin leather strap, I wouldn't use that even on my lightweight OM-1:

http://www.willamette.edu/cla/classics/VIPs/karp.html

At the age of 20, while majoring in Medieval Studies at Wesleyan University, he published a translation of the 6th-century Latin author Venantius Fortunatus.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2002/08/19/020819fa_fact_seabrook

passage from brilliant Upper East Side private-school kid to heroin addict was a sad but familiar story. ...father, was an extraordinarily successful businessman. ... published a translation of the sixth-century writer Venantius Fortunatus when he was twenty. Not only did he get 800s on the S.A.T.s, but he got 800s on a friend's S.A.T.s too, and did it while coming down from LSD. ... worked on Wall Street in risk arbitrage and option trading and was fired in 1984 after drugs were found in his desk. ... went on to indulge in a life total hedonism until the money ran out and his parents put him in detox. ... has been completely sober for almost twelve years

Hey, he's my new ^ essential hero(inside joke jtr might get, in reference to 'her'...be careful who you idolize ). What a tale, no Efin way that part could be true! .

Actually he's a pretty nice guy, just a polar opposite to my personality- he's very, very hyper without any foreign substances in his system. Energizer bunny for sure. Mind never seems to slow down, hard to keep up with him.

And yet, with 5yrs on a D2x, and months on a D3, $20k in lenses; he had trouble getting the AF to work while trying to hand-hold a shot @FM of a cluster of grapes. Deciding not to use the images because they were not in correct focus. Me wondering if he's taken the time to understand how AF's work, or the AF segmenting in the D3

 

[MaxBurn]

I disagree, there is plenty of opportunity but you have to look and work for it. I didn't buy into the whole ivy league thing either.

I was honest with myself and I knew I couldn't handle any form of college, let alone pay for it. Because of this I looked into the military. I never took any standardized testing but I know I did the ASVAB and was told I could do whatever I wanted, the Marines offered me the best deal with a guaranteed MOS in point to point microwave ground communications. I got a little over a year of electronics and radio theory training from them and in turn I did five years of boring work, this was in a time when nothing was going on 94-99'. I thought long and hard about what I wanted to do with my life and used the time to prepare. While I was in I found Tuition Assistance (paid for 75% cost at my time) and entered a decent on campus B.S. program with Southern Illinois University in Electronic System Technologies. I was even recognized with special permission to remain stateside my last year to continue with the SIU on campus program that I was in (USMC wanted to send me to Okinawa, standard for our MOS). In 99' I got out with zero debt and my junior/senior years of my B.S. done. I worked for a couple years and got nowhere on my degree in after hours school so I quit. I moved back in with my parents which was a big mental setback but I returned to college a little over full time and worked part time at auto parts stores and finally Best Buy fixing computers. For three years I survived off the G.I. bill, about ten hours a week work at $14/hour and free housing.

What I am saying is the opportunities are out there. I wouldn't recommend the military as strongly these days because it is unlikely you will get anything done education wise while you are in, plus they can suck you back to active duty and erase your inactive reserve time but they do offer some big piles of money for signing bonuses, MOS specific technical training if you qualify and of course the G.I. bill.

As for Ivy league colleges? I make as much or more than my friends that went to the big name colleges. Sure there are one or two that had the connection and did really well but there are an equal amount or more that got sucked into a black hole somewhere with kids or drugs. I am happy to play that long average and make it just fine trending toward that upper middle.