tsunami

LiamC

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That's not the "think of the children" argument, that is a possibility of radioactive contamination. Note the use of "possibility" in that statement. Also note the use of "may" in the statement you quoted. They are qualifiers and there for a reason.

Personally, I think it's you that has brought your own prejudices to the conversation, and misconstrued what I have posted.

Nowhere have I used absolute terms like will, definitely, or "think of the children". It's a possibility that may need to be planned for, which would drive up the cost of nuclear power, impacting or negating one of it's primary benefits. Again, note the use of qualifiers in that statement.
 

LiamC

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That's an interesting link, but it's a little light on in details. The pdf states things like safe to 1600 (C). Is that indefinite time at 1600? 20 minutes? A day?

Also, the assumptions used in calculating accident probabilities don't seem to be documented anywhere. Perhaps I missed it? As such it looks a bit "fluffy". Can you confirm that they are building such a reactor in Arizona?
 

LiamC

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Even if this goes to a "7", and we have four a century, it will still be less harmful than coal as an energy source.

Or lead mining. Oil & gas—Deepwater Horizon, Piper Alpha anyone? The trouble as I see it is that too many people just look at the simplistic setup costs for any resource use. But in this country at least (which is why I mentioned lead), the people are demanding more stringent safeguards on how we mine, transport or process these materials, which will only drive up the cost of the finished resource. Of course, the same people then complain about taxes or the higher cost of living. Go figure.

If the spent fuel rods prove (as it's seeming) "troublesome", then it won't be Chernobyl in popular memes, it will be Fukushima.
 

time

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WTF do people make of this news report?

It's "mistaken" yet it's "confirmed". And yes, if you do the math, the 10 million times is right.

This is hideous. They've convinced those workers that they're laying down their lives for the greater good, when in fact they're just buying time for the company/government.

Is anyone surprised that other governments told their citizens to get the hell out of there, and that importation of Japanese produce is now being blocked? These f**kers are going to kill any possibility of more or better nuclear power in our lifetimes. They flat out can't be trusted. Sh*t, at the very least, the board of TEPCO should be up against the wall. This isn't just an accident, it's murder.
 

Mercutio

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This is hideous. They've convinced those workers that they're laying down their lives for the greater good, when in fact they're just buying time for the company/government.


I'd just like to point out that that is definitely part of the Japanese cultural mentality to sacrifice in the name of the employer's interest. Certain death on the job is probably the cultural ideal of martyrdom there.
 

LunarMist

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I'd like to have a job like that, assuming they get benefits.
 

LiamC

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WTF do people make of this news report?

It's "mistaken" yet it's "confirmed". And yes, if you do the math, the 10 million times is right.

This is hideous. They've convinced those workers that they're laying down their lives for the greater good, when in fact they're just buying time for the company/government.

Is anyone surprised that other governments told their citizens to get the hell out of there, and that importation of Japanese produce is now being blocked? These f**kers are going to kill any possibility of more or better nuclear power in our lifetimes. They flat out can't be trusted. Sh*t, at the very least, the board of TEPCO should be up against the wall. This isn't just an accident, it's murder.

See my post #40 in this thread. This surprises me not at all.
 

time

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With you on the first one, but I'm thinking you must have pretty sober, dependable media if the second even raises an eyebrow. ;)
 

Handruin

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I took the second one easier. It was just annoying that they even ran the piece and didn't give numbers or details. I'd rather them not say anything at all because now people will be talking about how there is radiation in the water in my area and it'll spawn in the wrong direction.
 

time

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Meanwhile, the misinformation spin that provides fertile ground for that kind of idiocy continues unabated. After a PR blitz claiming that 10 million times was a mistake, and that they really meant 100,000 times, Tepco came up with two alternative stories:

a) It was only 100,000 times for water that had been used to cool a reactor core (!)
or b) the level it reported for iodine-134 was actually for another radionuclide with a longer half-life and therefore a lower activity rate

Tepco also said there was no evidence that the contaminated water had reached the sea. Yet NISA (Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency) said that radioactive iodine-131 was discovered just offshore from Unit 5 and Unit 6 at a level 1,150 times higher than normal.

I can't believe that any other government would sit back and put up with the mushroom food that these assholes are spreading. The only contribution I've heard from the Japanese government is to 'temporarily' raise the legal exposure limit for nuclear workers. The whole thing stinks of corruption at the highest levels.
 

MaxBurn

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That was a good one but really truth and facts dont matter in media and sometimes courts if they arent presented right. Im just glad people can think for themselves. Sometimes. If they want to.
 

Pradeep

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Meanwhile, the misinformation spin that provides fertile ground for that kind of idiocy continues unabated. After a PR blitz claiming that 10 million times was a mistake, and that they really meant 100,000 times, Tepco came up with two alternative stories:

a) It was only 100,000 times for water that had been used to cool a reactor core (!)
or b) the level it reported for iodine-134 was actually for another radionuclide with a longer half-life and therefore a lower activity rate

Tepco also said there was no evidence that the contaminated water had reached the sea. Yet NISA (Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency) said that radioactive iodine-131 was discovered just offshore from Unit 5 and Unit 6 at a level 1,150 times higher than normal.

I can't believe that any other government would sit back and put up with the mushroom food that these assholes are spreading. The only contribution I've heard from the Japanese government is to 'temporarily' raise the legal exposure limit for nuclear workers. The whole thing stinks of corruption at the highest levels.

TEPCO is like the Japanese version of BP in the Gulf. Just can't be trusted. They could end up being nationalised.

Latest problems seem to be "where to put the highly contaminated water that we are pumping out of the reactor basements, as the condensers are nearly full to capacity." And they still have to keep water going into the buildings to stave off meltdown.

Did anyone notice the recent TEPCO posting "the likelihood of re-criticality is not zero"?
 

Bozo

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You have to remember that until yesterday they didn't have any electricity. All their metering equipment didn't work. The cameras and other monitoring equipment didn't (doesn't) work. They are making the best of what can only be described as a worst case senareo. Even Three Mile Island had electricity.
It seems every network and news show has their expert (Dr so and so) second guessing the people that are working on the problem. Why aren't these experts over there helpng? This is a global problem, not a Japanese problem.
 

time

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Perhaps because Tepco has so far not allowed anyone else near it? Plenty of expert bodies have offered assistance, and the Japanese government has made appreciative noises, but I've yet to hear of foreign experts being involved in any way. Happy to be proved wrong in retrospect.

The only interesting thing about plutonium being found in soil samples is the question of how it got there - the levels are ludicrously small and about as much concern as US water contamination, i.e. none.

The story about a full meltdown is pure conjecture. It's a bit hard to believe given that the coolant temperature readings I've seen peaked at 400°C and most recently 150°C for reactor 2, which is clearly nowhere near what would be required to melt the container. Though no-one doubts that there are leaks.
 

Howell

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I suppose it is possible that some metal fractured due to temperature shock, releasing small amounts of radiation laden water.
 

time

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[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12945525]BBC News[/url] said:
On Friday, US Energy Secretary Steven Chu said about 70% of one reactor core was severely damaged as was about 30% of another. He said those figures were estimates because high radiation levels prevented workers from getting a close look at the damaged units.

Officials at Tepco and the nuclear safety agency would not confirm that assessment, AP said.

Meanwhile, Tepco is looking for 'jumpers'.

Want to earn $5000 for less than an hour's work? Come on down!
 

Handruin

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I remember watching video series on Chernobyl (Inside Chernobyl's Sarcophagus) and the robot vehicles failed due to the radiation and getting trapped. The second part of the video shows some of the teams of people that were tasked with running in to throw radioactive pieces (graphic blocks) off the roof. Start at 2:16 to see the reference regarding the robots.
 

time

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Level 7

It seems to me, that the people who claimed that there was nothing much to worry about should be apologizing profusely to those they publicly denigrated. All I can hear are crickets chirping.
 

Stereodude

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Congratulations on being right and cheerleading and gloating over the results of a natural disaster.

I hope you're happy now that you got the outcome you've been longing for.
 

time

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That's actually too bizarre for me to be able to take offense. :dunno:

I was more concerned that I was in a glasshouse throwing stones:
Well, it's clearly worse than Three Mile Island (due to radioactive emissions and number of reactors) but nowhere near Chernobyl (and never could be). I guess it's worth a six if conditions worsen.

However, at this point my feeling is that there's been enough decay to get them out of the extreme danger zone. The breach to reactor 2 could keep emissions happening for a few days, but it doesn't look like they're going to get super-serious (famous last words).

My concern has been the extraordinary propagation of disinformation, only partly due to the language barrier and lazy journalism. There have been almost no reliable media sources in this sorry saga - either through sloppiness or pushing an agenda for one point of view or another. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it, and that frightens the hell out of me.

The effects will be to raise blanket mistrust of nuclear power for a generation. It doesn't matter how good a thorium reactor or other improved design is, there will now be widespread opposition around the world. People simply won't believe assurances of safety - and who can blame them?
 

Tannin

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This wasn't an accident. It was a gamble. Some people thought the risks too remote and rolled the dice...

Nailed the crux of the matter right there, Bill.

Mind you, just saying that something is a gamble shouldn't rule it out. Gambling with our future is something we humans often do, sometimes with good reason. But we should at least be clear on what we are doing.

Besides, the Tsunami has kill far more people than any of those reactors.

Almost certainly not. We really have no idea of the likely toll from this disaster, but we do know that the Chernobyl disaster has already killed a lot more people than the Tsunami - we can't say exactly how many, but possibly as much as an order of magnitude greater.

Even if this goes to a "7", and we have four a century, it will still be less harmful than coal as an energy source.

I am not convinced of that, but I certainly recognize the rolling disaster that we call the coal industry, and agree that it too has massive long-term costs. Whether those costs are greater than or less than the massive costs of the nuclear industry, who really knows? Right now, you'd have to say that coal has done a lot more damage. But on the other hand, we have used coal for a lot longer, we use a lot more of it, and many (not all) of its effects are quite short-term.

In any case, arguing whether coal is worse than nuclear merely begs the question. What we should be asking is "what are the best routes forward?" - not "wick of these bad routes is even worse than the other bad route?"

The pro nuclear people are all madly running around saying "oh, but we can do it better in future" (which is undoubtedly true), and many of them are still pretending that things are not as bad as they really are (they do this every single time - lying about disasters for as long as possible must be something they teach in Nuclear Engineering 101, 'cause they do it every single bloody time - and then, later, when they want something new, they complain about the "stupid" public not believing them!).

The anti-nuclear people are all running around saying "I told you so" and that the potential for more disasters is just too high, and that all the proposed new safeguards are still not good enough (which is true) - but they practically never look at the context. In particular, they don't look at the costs associated with non-nuclear alternatives.

Intelligent people sidestep all those arguments because we simply don't need them in order to make practical decisions. Intelligent people look at the total cost of generating electricity with nuclear power, applying all the appropriate safeguards, and run away from it at the speed of a farting butterfly, 'cause when you do the sums, nuclear ain't just expensive, it is mega-expensive electricity, and we have much, much cheaper, cleaner ways to do it. We don't need to work out if the disaster risks of nuclear power are bearable or not, because there is no economic case for it at present.

Nuclear people, come back and talk to us again if and when you have figured out a way to deliver a product that is not only safe, but also affordable and practical.And stop asking for bloody subsidies!
 

Stereodude

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...but we do know that the Chernobyl disaster has already killed a lot more people than the Tsunami - we can't say exactly how many, but possibly as much as an order of magnitude greater.
I don't suppose you have even the slightest shred of evidence to back up this wild claim do you?
 

Stereodude

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The effects will be to raise blanket mistrust of nuclear power for a generation. It doesn't matter how good a thorium reactor or other improved design is, there will now be widespread opposition around the world. People simply won't believe assurances of safety - and who can blame them?
So, instead they will get stuck with old reactor designs that are less safe because there's nothing to replace them. The irony is strong. Their opposition to building new and safer reactors because they're blindly anti-nuclear simply results in the continued use of old nuclear plants which admittedly could be safer.
 
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