TV card suggestions

jtr1962

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My brother asked me what I needed for my birthday. I told him a TV card would be a good idea. I'm basically looking for something to enable me to transfer VHS tapes and/or record programs to DVDs. I'd prefer a component connection to my cable TV box for best signal quality. If possible, I also want something that can enable me to record in HD. It would be nice if I could send a signal to the TV so I could playback either DVDs or video files on my PC but watch the picture on a TV. Any ideas, preferably for about $40 or less? Any cards that can transmit a HD signal to a TV yet?
 

Mercutio

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There are cards that will do HD, and there are cards that have component input; those are not cards that cost under $40.

Under $40, you'll get Svideo, which is essentially the same picture quality as component as long as you're looking at standard-definition TV (there's a big jump between Svideo and composite. Very little difference between component and Svideo).

Basically, you can spend $60 - $70 to get something that does hardware encoding, or you can get a $35 cheapie that uses your CPU to do all the work. HD-capture stuff starts at around $100.
 

jtr1962

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Is any card in particular better for SDTV? Would a card that uses the CPU for encoding overtax my XP2500? What about HDTV? Any card you would recommend? I might put in the difference between what my brother is willing to spend and what an HDTV card costs. Is 2GB RAM sufficient for HD video encoding?
 

Mercutio

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HD Encoding is all about hard disk write speeds and some kind of staggering amount of disk space. We all hate RAID0 but it's the best way to go to actually do that kind of work. I'm not sure of CPU requirements but I'm guessing something with a modern system bus (hypertransport) is probably desirable. I haven't done any HD capture myself; next time I teach a video editing class I'll probably expense something-or-other.

I like Conexant 878s better than Philips analog capture cards, but that has more to do with how well the drivers behave than anything else.
 

Pradeep

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Generally all of the PCI cards that receive OTA HD can record the streams, if you don't re-encode them they will save as .ts (transport stream).

I use a MyHD120 myself, works great for watching and recording OTA HD. Uses hardware decoding. I believe the 130 version (current) can tune unencrypted QAM from cable. Dongle provides component output to TV (DVI output is available via daughterboard).

The cheaper HD cards use the CPU to do the decoding, if you aren't doing to many things at once this can give you acceptable results.

I don't think you are going to get anything that can encode HD via component input for less than $2K.
 

Pradeep

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Forgot to ask, what type of TV do you have? And what cable package? It may only cost you another $5-$10 per month to switch to an HD DVR from your cable co, this will allow you to record two HD programs whilst viewing a previously recorded 3rd stream. Some of the newer HD DVRs also have a SATA port so you can expand storage.
 

CityK

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For any type of input signal feed into any type of tv/capture card, the signal flow and processes which must occur are pretty much the same, albiet with some variation depending upon the application (i.e. digital vs analog; software vs hardware). Making and understanding the distinctions of these processes goes a long way in understanding the nature of all things video capture related. I will do my best to elucidate those and provide a general conceptual framework.

Lets consider an analog TV input signal

Analog TV transmissions are composite (YUV) singals placed on an RF carrier. In order to display the video signal on your computer, the cards must very first convert the analog signal into a digital bitstream. The following steps are performed by the analog tvtuner card/device for such matters:
  • Step 1: The card's tuner picks up a selected broadcast channel's RF signal, performs Automatic Gain Control and converts it into a standard intermediate frequency (IF) ....the video portion of the signal being denoted by V-IF and S-IF for the audio portion.
    .
  • Step 2: Next, the IF is then routed through the device's demodulator where the composite signal is recovered from the carrier wave. Specifically, V-IF is input into the demodulator and CVBS (Composite Video Baseband Signal) is output from the demodulator. Similarily, the S-IF is converted to baseband left and right channels.

    Note – A receiver = tuner + demodulator. The receiver portion of the device is also referred to as the frontend. Frontends are often entirely contained within a tin can, known as a NIM (network interface module). Although, the move to silicon components will see the tin can designs soon disappear. Likewise, ICs are becoming far more integrated (i.e read multi-funcitonal), so a given capture device might not contain all the individual components (listed in red bold) that are contained in my description. Nonetheless, it is the concepts of the description that is important, as the devices will indeed still perform the same operation stages no mater whether one, two, three, or many IC's perform all the necessary tasks. So, in essence, what I am describing is the generalized design ... think of it as the block diagram.
    .
  • Step 3 - This CVBS is then routed to the card's decoder chip. The decoder performs analog digital conversion (ADC), where by the composite (YUV) signal is converted into an uncompressed digital bitstream (either RGB or YcbCr)...similarly, the audio signals would be digitized by a decoder .... if a single decoder IC is used for the ADC of both audio and video, then it is referred to as (surprise, surprise) an A/V decoder

    Note - in the computer world, YCbCr is commonly, yet incorrectly, referred to as YUV when spoken of in terms of codecs etc

    Note – here's the subtle key about what constitutes “encoding” and “decoding”:
    • Decoding transforms a signal into a “raw” bitstream that can be natively rendered to the system's display device (i.e. an uncompressed signal in the RGB or YCbCr colourspace)
    • Encoding transforms a signal into a form which can not be natively displayed on the system's display device ... generally speaking, compression formats like mpeg2 etc etc
    So, as in the above description, since the analog YUV signal is converted into an uncompressed RGB digital bitstream, it is referred to as a decoding operation, and hence why the particular dedicated hardware IC on the capture card for this task is called a decoder.
    Conversely, with a video card that has TV-out, an encoding operation is performed whereby an analog YUV (composite) or Y/C (s-video) or YPbPr (component) signal is created from an uncompressed RGB bitstream; and hence why you find a TV-encoder (DAC) on the card (if such functionality is not natively incorporated into the GPU of the video card)
    .....note that an encoding operation kept strictly in the digital domain was referred to just above (i.e converting the uncompressed RGB or YcbCr bitstream into a compressed bitstream format; like conversion to mpeg2 etc)
    .
  • Step 4 - As mentioned above, in respects to the video signal portion, the resultant output from the decoder IC is a raw component bitstream, and it can be sent over the system bus (PCI, USB ...depending upon that which the capture card/device is situated upon) and piped to:

    a) the video graphics device for immediate display or

    b) Alternatively, one can save the digitized stream to file on the disk. Saving the file on disk obviously allows for later playback (either much later, or perhaps soon afterward the capture ala PVR style for timeshifting functionality etc). Unfortunately, even in the case of standard definition resolutions * the raw, uncompressed digitized bitstream tends to be quite large. For ease of storage and playback, the stream is generally saved in a compressed format (such as MPEG2 etc), necessitating the need for an encoder

    Note - In PCI designs, it is the A/V decoder that functions as the bridge device to the PCI bus. In USB designs, a USB bridge IC will usually be employed, as A/V decoders currently (generally) lack such interfacing capabilities

    Note - * standard definition refers to digital formats of specified resolutions ... in this case, it implies that the analog signal has been converted to a digital file format ... quite often you will see individuals refer to analog as sdtv, but analog is not sdtv (analog is, er, analog!). But you most certainly can capture an analog signal and convert it to a digital standard definition format (compressed or uncompressed).
    .
  • The encoder can be either software based (i.e. the host cpu performs all encoding tasks based on a particular software encoder's algorithm) or come in the form of a dedicated hardware IC contained on the capture device. In the case of a hardware based solution, the signal flow is from the A/V decoder to the encoder IC, which will have some associated RAM for buffering and calculation operations. Afterward the encoding operation, the compressed bitstream can then be routed across the appropriate system bus (so either the bridge work is handled by the encoder, or the encoder flows the processed signal back through to the A/V decoder for a conduit to the system bus).

    Note 6 - Those who want PVR functionality tend to choose capture cards with an onboard hardware MPEG2 encoder (there are a large number of such cards). Hardware based encoding cards greatly assist timeshifting capability (and, as well, most viewing apps don't support timeshifting unless a hardware encoding card/device is used). As the host cpu in the system does not have to end up performing the mpeg2 encoding, it is of course free to perform other duties.

    Note - Not all encoders are created equal. In particular, with MPEG2, this is true due to the fact that encoding processes are defined by a framework, rather then by standardization. This is true of both hardware and software solutions. Having a hardware solution does not guarantee a superior quality capture over a software solution --- I say this only because far too often the PVR community throws out blanket statements like "hardware cards produce better quality then software cards", in a manner of speaking as if having hardware somehow (because of some law of physics) magically performs better. Precluding software based cards from being capable of producing quality captures is simply preposterous. What should, more properly, be noted is that hardware solutions, like the Hauppauge etc style devices, are capable of producing excellent quality captures and are ideal for PVR applications. Regardless, real-time encoding is obviously one pass based, so even greater image quality can be obtained from capturing raw uncompressed streams and then doing a multi-pass encoding.
A (somewhat) brief note on playback if Step 4b is performed

When it comes to the highly compressed file formats that you saved to disk (i.e. “captured”), the compressed bitstream needs to be decoded (uncompressed) if you are going to play/view it on the system's display device (i.e. you have to turn it back into what the system can natively handle -- that raw, uncompressed, YCbCr or RGB bitstream). This is the job of a decoder

Note - no ADC is involved in this case (unlike with an A/V decoder) as all operations remain in the digital domain.

The decoder can be either software (i.e. performed by the host cpu following some software algorithm) or hardware based (i.e a discrete decoder IC that contains the necessary algorithm logic).... or a bit of both (i.e. when offloading parts of the decoding routines onto the video card GPU is supported by the software decoder, video card, video card drivers and video playback app).

Very few hardware decoding based solutions exist. In terms of TV capture cards, if they possess a hardware decoder IC, it invariably means its a MPEG2 decoder. Off hand I can only think of one or two (analog) TV capture cards that also have a hardware mpeg2 decoder (ex. Hauppauge PVR 350). And a couple of other specialized cards like the Hollywood+ etc. etc. Note – one or two devices do have IC's that support decode of standard definition mpeg4 ASP bitstreams, but they are most certainly the exception (ex, Plextor capture devices).

Anyway, in the case of a device with an onboard hardware based mpeg2 decoder, for playback, the compressed mpeg2 format bitstream is sent from the disk across the system bus to the card/device containing the hardware mpeg2 decoder. After the stream is decoded, it is routed straight from the capture card/device to the display device*. You don't send decoded video back across the system bus to your video card for output handling because the signal is now back to an uncompressed state, and uncompressed equals big badass bitrates (even for SD resolutions) that gum up the system bus if you're already simultaneously streaming the compressed file from disk to the card for decoding! ... let alone running anything else on the bus (like networking functions etc etc).

Note – * if you're intended viewing device is an ordinary TV, then digital-to-analog conversion (DAC) is necessary and would be performed by a TV-out encoder IC

It might be prudent to note that while hardware decoding might sound attractive, the reason why MPEG2 decoding for standard definition resolutions is usually software based is because host cpus are literally behemoths nowadays and scoff at the task that once brought their not so long ago predecessors to their knees...okay, maybe it is still somewhat challenging, but other improvements have also been introduced into the decoding chain. Specifically, and despite their namesake, a lot of software decoders actually unburden the host processor by shifting much of the decoding processing over to the dedicated hardware of your system's graphic adaptor. I don't think there is a video card sold today that isn't capable of providing some sort of mpeg2 decoding acceleration, and most cards drivers for Windows OSes will support that capability (completely different story under Linux etc .... stupid Nvidia (support limited to > GF4), ATI (no support), VIA (retarded limited supported), and SIS (no support) ... but props to Intel for full support of its IGPs!). So most decoders (and playback programs) will leverage those video card mpeg2 decode acceleration capabilities. And this, of course, has the desired affect of much reducing the utilization of processor resources.

Of course, if you originally captured to a compression format other then mpeg2, there is video card playback acceleration support (ranging from good to rudimentary) for a few other compression formats too now (if you're using a Windows OS platform). But I digress.

Perhaps only the other noteworthy tidbit is that not all MPEG2 software decoders (or even hardware ones for that mater) are created equal -- there is leeway for interpretation in the decoding process, and as is the case, some decoders produce better picture quality then others, while perhaps doing so more or less efficiently (as measured by cpu utilization) then their counterparts. *2

*2 - this is not the case with AVC (MPEG4 AVC). Its decoding process is bit perfect. There is no PQ differences attributable to the different decoders -- PQ difference can only be attributable to any post processing involved. The only thing the different decoders are different in is there level of efficiency...which can vary wildly

So, to Recap the mechanics and dynamics of the analog TV-in signal path

An analog capture card is typified by the following stages:

RF input signal -> [ tuner] -> IF signal -> [demodulator] -> composite video baseband signal -> [ decoder] -> uncompressed digital component bitstream signal -> which from this point can be either routed to:
1) display device for immediate viewing or to
2) either
  1. the host processor (as in the case of "software" encoding cards) or
  2. ii) an on board encoder (as in Hauppauge et al "hardware MPEG2" type encoding cards)
for encoding the stream to a suitable compression format and then routed off to the hard disk (from which it can be played back either much later or in the very near-term (in the case of performing PVR type time shifting
3) When the pathway for point 2 was followed (i.e. encoding occurred) it necessitates that a decoder be employed in order to achieve playback.
[For support of this purpose, the capture device itself may optionally include onboard a hardware decoder IC and a TV-out encoder]


Lets consider an analog A/V input signal (fed into either a TV capture or just strictly capture device

Step 1 – When you plug an analog input source - i.e. the video portion is one of YUV (composite), S-Video (Y/C) or Component (YpbPr) - into your capture device, the signal is routed straight to the A/V decoder for ADC operations. For the remainder of the story refer back to Step 3 above for a recount of what this entails and proceed forward, as absolutely nothing else is different from then on in.

Note – I can't think of any TV capture cards offhand with component inputs, although pretty well all A/V decoder ICs can accept such inputs (in fact A/V decoders have a number of different inputs combos... just have a glance at a datasheet for one and you'll see how many they can indeed accept! ... which explains why even older BT878A chips work quite well for multicamera security/surveillence). Anyway, despite the lack of component input jacks on TV capture cards/devices, you can still record component sources through an extremely convoluted method ... convoluted and extreme being the key terms though). There are, however, a number of strictly capture devices that have component inputs ... for the most part, they tend to be USB based devices.

***************

To follow in the near future (hopefully tonight):
  • How DTV (OTA, Digital Cable, Sat) cards/devices work
  • Capturing uncompressed Hi-Def signals
  • and even more unsolicited ranting!
 

ddrueding

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Holy crap CityK! That is (IIRC) the second longest post ever! And with more information than I can handle during breakfast...thanks for that.
 

jtr1962

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Forgot to ask, what type of TV do you have? And what cable package? It may only cost you another $5-$10 per month to switch to an HD DVR from your cable co, this will allow you to record two HD programs whilst viewing a previously recorded 3rd stream. Some of the newer HD DVRs also have a SATA port so you can expand storage.
We have Time Warner cable. Right now I'm using my late father's 30" Westinghouse HDTV in the basement. When the prices come down I may buy a 42" or so 1080p for my bedroom. We can get something like TiVo through the cable company but I'm really not interested mainly in recording programs so I can watch them later. Rather, I want to transfer all my VHS tapes to DVD, perhaps put most of them on a hard drive(s) on my PC also to make a video jukebox of sorts, and record new stuff on my PC and burn it to DVD.

It probably looks like I'll stick with a SDTV card for now since the prices of HDTV cards are a bit steep, and there are only a handful of channels in HD on my cable system anyway.
 

jtr1962

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CityK,

Thanks for the TV/video capture lesson. I look forward to your further updates later on. For now that's quite a bit of info to digest.
 

udaman

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Holy crap CityK! That is (IIRC) the second longest post ever! And with more information than I can handle during breakfast...thanks for that.

LOL, supa dave, I guess you forgot about the posts jtr & I used to do on that 'other' site, don't get us started ;).

We have Time Warner cable. Right now I'm using my late father's 30" Westinghouse HDTV in the basement. When the prices come down I may buy a 42" or so 1080p for my bedroom.

It probably looks like I'll stick with a SDTV card for now since the prices of HDTV cards are a bit steep, and there are only a handful of channels in HD on my cable system anyway.

You know jtr, I think you can get quite abit of Asian programing on cable in your area, and some of it is in HD...yummy :). You don't need 1080p, except in rare instances of higher speed motion, limited situations where you could actually tell the difference btw that and 1080i, which is much more common now. There will be more HD content in the next few years for sure, even more in 5yrs. So unless you have plenty of luxury income, I'd wait for better LCD or other type of screen tech to materialize (even price come down on more color accurate LCD's with backlit LED's).


For the price of that 42in, (now why would you want than if you already have 30in, you couch potato!, and you want something bigger in your bedroom...pr0n ;) ), wait for the 56in Chi Meo 4k res. screen to come down in price. Really, you can tell the difference, btw uncompressed (read, TB's of disk storage unfortunately) 2k or 4k material...but that's 5-10yrs down the road, any currently only available in a few select theathre venues around the world.

For the same price as that small 42in (up close 42in even with full 1080p, is not fine enough grained, IMHO, you need full 4k res for that) now and in the near future, you could almost make it to the 2008 Summer Olympics (choke on the pollution of course during the heat waves) in Bejing. With a little bit more, you could do a quickie mini-tour of Asia, China, Hong Kong, Japan, S. Korea. For someone of your *ahem* age (like me), with health only going downhill (never mind lots of people in their 50's are still competitive in triathelons)...and considering you 1st post here in 8 months, where in you said something foolish about ending your life (whinny whus!) do to pain; I behoves you to take a chance, do something different, expand your horizons for once in a lifetime.

Now, back to the topic at hand. What CityK has not corrected Merc on is that fact of the way commercial TV is distributed here in the USA, HDTV is highly compressed and limited to 25Mbps data rate (or is it even lower @19, I forget). But while even an ancient laptop 4.2k drive can do STR's that low, what Eugene in his infinite bias against anything to do with video editing (think he must still use LP records, hehe) is that HD's have spikes in the STR's and the way most site graph the STR's is an 'average' rate. So if you see a 7.2k laptop drive like the Hitachi 7k100 with an end-rate of 27MBs, what you don't see is that at any instant in recording an hour long program, a few micro seconds here or there, the rate drops well below that average 27MBs.

Originally, Apple did not even support (though it was widely recognized you could do this with faster 7.2k 3.5in drives as far back as ~2000) Firewire capture with Final Cut Pro, because of dropped frames. The entire interaction of data flow, means you need to get the data to the CPU with a HD that does well above any theoretical 25Mbs compressed HD material. You need a faster drive to record 100Mbs via FW800 (800Mbs) format that Panasonic uses on their professional camcorders, their propietary DVDProHD. but it can be done.

How many hours of HD material would you be recording? But bottom line is any large desktop 3.5in drive today has plenty of speed to record the minimal bandwith of broadcast TV HD, either 720p or 1080i, 1080p. You could fill up a inexpensive price point. 300GB drive in a year, but by then 1/2TB drives should be down enough in price to replace that and so on. And I'm assuming you don't want to view 2k or 4k via dl from some internet sites (sorry Merc, none of that in pr0n...give it a few years) that have these HUGE files, even in highly compressed format (you'd need ultra optical/commercial data rates to get 4k uncompressed files)


Hmm, OT, but over on the 'music' thread, where Gilbo mentioned how he downed a whole bottle of wine in 30min (I assume with his g/f, cause most wine drinkers I know don't even guzzle wine that fast, not even from the wicked buzz of Champagne); and I mentioned for Chewys sake, a nice Korean lady just turned 30'somethin I had joining the wine gang for sushi at a local high-end sushi bar...here's her myspace profile pix, what do you think? ;)... so who's up for the tour of Asian 2008 (will optional stopover to visit the female owner of that 'escort' service in Kobe, Japan?). Now I was reading a review of Wolfgang Puck's newest restaurant here in BH, called 'Cut' (as in cuts of prime beef), where they have 8oz Kobe filets for $160, but the almost as famous celebrity chef Thomas Keller prefers the more finely marbled wagu style beef from a specialty producer in Australia...and comment form the Oz gourmet contingent, maybe a side trip to Sydney, and it's Chinatown then, and more 'raw' meat of every persuasion???.

worldclasstease.jpg
 

CityK

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there are only a handful of channels in HD on my cable system anyway.
And at that, you can only receive the unencrypted channels with any PC based DTV cards/devices, as the current lot are incapable of performing any type of conditional access that your provider would have in place on the encrypted premium content channels.

that's quite a bit of info to digest.
Yes, it is. But once you become familar with it, you'll see that there really isn't much too it after all. Its probably a hard read because the way things get formatted with html and because I stuck all the notes in (the appropriate places mind you). The important point is to first grasp the concepts as highlighted in the "recap", then fill in the details provided in the overview.

What CityK has not corrected Merc on is that fact of the way commercial TV is distributed here in the USA, HDTV is highly compressed and ).....
Distributed signals are indeed highly compressed
  • OTA (ATSC, which uses 8-VSB modulation) has a bitrate of ~19.4Mbps.
  • Digitial Cable (STCE, which usually uses QAM modulation *) has a bitrate of ~38.8Mbps for the QAM256 flavour and ~27Mbps for the QAM64 sources.
  • I don't know the rates typical for satellite (for example, DVB-S sources using QPSK or 8PSK modulation) off the top of my head. I would have to look it up. But I seem to recall its in the ~40Mbps ballpark.
* some (rare) cable networks use 8-VSB ... (even rarer), some networks aren't even STCE base, but rather use DVB-C instead (which means that they would be using some flavour of QAM ... 64, 128, 256..)

Nonetheless; you missed the point -- Merc was talking about the capture of the uncompressed signals output from a STB:

A STB decodes the highly compressed transmission signal that it receives (i.e. it's input signal). After decoding, the bitrate of the raw uncompressed bitstream it outputs on its digital connections is freakin' huge. Similarly, if you wanted to capture and perserve all the information it spits out on its analog outputs, you're looking at the exact same huge storage requirements. If you want to get an idea, have a look a my recent posts on Doom9, starting here ... I included some examples for different scenarios at the bottom of the thread.

Questions about connecting a STB (and/or capturing from a STB) to a PC are quite common on forums. I outlined on AVS why doing just such in you're typical computer just ain't gonna happen right here.
 

Pradeep

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Udaman: remember that OTA HD is at around 18Mbit/sec. Which comes out to less than 3MB/sec, which is certainly not a challenge for any drive produced in the last 10 years.

I doubt we'll be seeing 2K or 4K in the home for many years to come. Perhaps once the 1080p market is fully saturated, and CE companies are looking for new markets.
 

CityK

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I look forward to your further updates later on.
What I'm doing is actually just slapping together the info I've already written from a bunch of posts on AVS, htpcnews etc. Unfortunately, its a slower process (i.e. making a cohesive description from disjointed segments) then I thought it would be -- I seem to end up doing a fair amount of editing and rearranging and gap filling, to try to get a linear and comprehensive picture. Nonetheles, I'll finish up as time permits...as I ended up doing some other things last night, I didn't get a chance to do much -- this mornign I put together a framework for a post on digital TV (DTV cards) but it will need a bit of fixing first....haven't thought too much about the uncompressed side, however the links I provided above should give some food for thought. Gonna go run some errands and then off to the gym...maybe when I get back in after lunch I can sit around and rest for a while and type something up.
 

Stereodude

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I'm now looking for a good, but low cost HDTV card for OTA HD only. I had been using my MyHD (original one), but it seems to be completely incompatible with my new HTPC.

I already have 2 Dvico Fusion 5 cards, one (Gold) in the HTPC, one (lite) in my server, and I'm not sure how well 2 will get along in the same machine, so I guess I'm looking for other suggestions.
 

CityK

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Before I begin - when reading what's to follow, don't lose sight of the forest from the trees ... or is that trees from the forest? Whatever. I'm gonna be presenting an overwhelming amount of info here --- or at least it will be overwhelming at first if you get caught up in all the details and notes. Concentrate on just the concepts being presented. Then go back and fill in the space with all the ridiculous details.

Also note that I long since stopped caring what the formatting, grammar, and etc etc etc comes across as. Much against my original intention, this quickly spun out of control and burst into a bloody huge time wasting project.

But it also brought me to a point of self discovery – I've decided I'm no longer going to explain the same concepts and issues over and over ad nausem (as I have been doing on some websites). Second, I'm going to try to stick to short responses in future on all web forums that I chose to still participate on...I just don't have time any more – and what time I do have, I end up wasting on ridiculous things. I don't mind so much composing a post that rivals in size half the old testament on a forum like SF, as most members here have a penchant for appreciating knowledge, and second, are capable of comprehending the points put across when dealing with new information. But in other forums I think that it just results in wasted words and energy.

Anyway, without further ado:


A discussion on codecs and container file formats ... and modulation schemes


Just thought that it would be good time/place to touch on a few topics and their relevance to capture cards.


Recall that with an analog source input (TV-in, YUV, Y/C, YPbPr...), the video and audio contents are digitized by the (A/V) decoder. The result from that operation is an uncompressed component bitstream (in either the RGB or YCbCr colourspace).


Q. Is that catpuring?
A. No, that's just the ADC necessary to get the underlining video/audio contents onto the computer in the first place.


Capturing, on the other hand, concerns writing the underlining contents (the audio and video essence) of the decoded bitstream to disk. There are a couple of different ways you can go about doing that task, but in all cases this involves placing the essence within some sort of standardized container file format that
- contains particular metadata about its internal contents
- greatly facilitates a convenient form of storage management.
Really, its entirely analogous to say typing out your thoughts as text and saving that content to a MS Office Word . doc or OpenOffice Writer .odt file. Some popular multimedia container file formats are mentioned here.


Now, getting back to the different methods to which I just alluded, one can capture by:
  • writing the uncompressed bitstream as it is within a container file format. This would be referred to as loseless and uncompressed ... in other words, none of the data output from the decoder is sacrificed and you end up with a huge file on disk
  • by first applying a loseless compression algorithm on the bitsream and then wrap the result in a container file format.... in other words, encode the stream in such a way that it reduces the required file size needed on disk, but do so in a manner that allows this compressed material to be decoded (uncompressed) back, at a later point in time, into a stream that is bit perfect to that which was originally output from the A/V decoder....Note that the compression algorithm used is the encoding aspect of a particular codec .... and the decompression algorithm used at a later time is the decoding aspect of that particular codec .... There are a number of codecs that support lossless compression; one such example is the popular HuffyUV.
  • by first applying a lousy compression algorithm on the bitstream and then wrap the result in a container file format ... in other words, encode the stream in such a way that reduces the required file size needed on disk, but accomplish this feat by way of a manner that permanently discards data, and hence does not allow this compressed material to be decoded (uncompressed) back, at a later point in time, into a stream that would be identical to that which was originally output from the A/V decoder....There are numerous codecs that support lousy compression....and the extent to which a capture can be made “lousy” varies dramatically (i.e. from what is termed “near-loseless” or “visually loseless” to the highly compressed that retain little of the original bitstream) ... but the degree of “lousiness”, in of itself, does not necessarily translate into a determinant of perceivable quality.
How about capturing when you have a digital source input (DVI, HDMI, SDI, HD-SDI...)?


Well its slightly different, as all those inputs come in the form of an uncompressed serial bitstream, and that has to be converted into a uncompressed component bitstream (i.e do a serial to parallel conversion). But as this all has to do with uncompressed capturing, lets save this for later discussion.


I noticed you didn't mention capturing a digital TV (DTV) input source (OTA, Digital Cable, Satellite). How's that done? And what about firewire/1394?


Before we get into that, I'll mention that one thing that I didn't touch upon in the analog TV-in cards discussion above was modulation.


No matter the source/origin, all TV transmissions utilize radio frequency (RF). Think about what a RF is for a second – its a sinusoidal wave. So how do you convey complex information on a sine wave? The answer lies in employing a particular scheme of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulation]modulation[/url]. In fact, all radio frequency based delivery systems use a modulation scheme that is appropriate for the task at hand.


As a simplification, with DTV, the video and audio content/essence is encoded by the television station into a particular compressed bitstream format, encapsulated within a very particular container format, then modulated onto an RF carrier and then finally transmitted across the applicable medium:
  • terrestrial based over-the-air (OTA) broadcast* transmission ... * broadcast has a particular meaning – the signal is available to all; as contrasted with the next two forms
  • cable network transmission ... i.e. a narrow casted transmission
  • first uplinked to a satellite and then transmitted over-the-air ... i.e a non-terrestrial based narrow cast transmission .... although some sat transmissions are indeed actually broadcast transmissions – intended to be received by all with the most basic capability to do so ... the former, on the other hand, would describe the case with Dish Network etc, - as they are intended for a narrow audience that has paid subscription fees for in turn the ability to access the transmitter's encrypted content
The particular compression formats that DTV systems use are MPEG2 and, since very recently, some systems around the world have also begun to use MPEG4 part 10 (i.e. AVC/h.264). In other words, in a DTV system, you are guaranteed to find that the video essence is encoded in MPEG2/4 format. As I mentioned, that content is encapsulated/wrapped/placed-in a very specific container format – namely, the MPEG2 Transport Stream.


When MPEG2 was developed, it was done so with the intention that the underlining MPEG2 encoded content would be placed, depending upon the usage application, within either of the two official MPEG2 container formats – MPEG2 Program Stream or MPEG2 Transport Stream .
  • Note – you can, of course, place MPEG2 encoded essence within other container formats like avi, matroska, mp4 etc etc. ... these other container formats were either not sanctioned by the MPEG (motion pictures expert group) body or simply not even in existence at the time the whole MPEG-2 standard was developed.
  • Note – most folks are familiar with MPEG2 by way of a .mpg file that they downloaded off the internet. In most of those cases, the file is a PS container that holds MPEG2 encoded content/essence. Either that or they are might be aware that
  • Note – DVD uses MPEG2 encoded content placed within a slightly modified PS container – specifically, the so called VOB file format
For purposes of sending encoded bitstreams across noisy mediums/environments that are prone to generating errors in the original transmission signal, we turn to using the TS container, as it utilizes much more robust error correction mechanisms that can compensate for such transmission associated problems. This feature adds substantial overhead to the TS container, and thus the reason why the PS format is the more suitable choice as a file storage format.
Lastly, it is worthy to once again mention that DTV systems that transmit MPEG4 encoded content are still doing so by way of encapsulating that content within the very same TS container format that was described in part1 of the MPEG2 standard. The moral of the story is, if it ain't broke, why fix it.


So now that you have a general introduction to the concepts of container formats and modulation, lets finally turn to how DTV capture cards/devices work.
 

CityK

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Lets consider DTV “Capture” Cards/Devices


Recall that a transmitted DTV signal is really nothing more then a Transport Stream that has been modulated onto an RF carrier wave. In turn, DTV cards/devices are really nothing more then network interface devices that recover TS – its the exact same thing as a what a network card does with a file that is packetized and sent over the internet. Now, in order to display the actual video signal contained within the TS on your computer, the following steps are performed by the DTV receiver card/device:

  • Step 1 - The card's tuner selects a particular RF, it performs AGC on the signal and converts it into a standard intermediate frequency (IF)
  • Step 2: Next, the IF is then routed through the device's demodulator where the Transport Stream is recovered from the carrier wave. You will sometimes see this process referred to as RF-to-bits
Lets pause to note a whole bunch of things:
  • Contrast the Step 2 from the analog description above and the step 2 for DTV cards.
  • The noteworthy point is that an analog demodulator recovers an analog signal from the carrier wave (specifically, a cvsb signal), whereas a digital demodulator recovers a digital bitstream from the carrier wave (specifically, the Transport Stream)
  • In other words, the digital demodulator performs ADC on the RF carrier. With the analog device, the signal output from the analog demodulator still has to undergo ADC at a later point, within the A/V decoder.
  • But there is a subtle difference between the ADC process that occurs in the digital demodulator to that which occurs in an A/V decoder in the case of analog. With the digital card, all that is occurring is that the digital bitstream is being recovered off the RF carrier -- i.e. you're lining up all the 1's and 0's in the particular order that they were meant to be arranged, in order to correctly reproduce the underlining video material at a later point. If you don't line them up in the right order, you get garbage...in contrast, in the case of the analog card, the digitization process in the A/V decoder is one of creation - your creating a bitstream from a squiggly analog wave; not recovering one.
  • Most DTV cards/devices have a front end (receiver) that is also capable of supporting analog TV signals as well. Such devices are commonly referred to as a hybrid tuner. Recall that a receiver = tuner + demodulator. In the case of DTV card/devices that also support reception of analog TV, the frontend will consist of a single tuner, an analog demodulator, and a digital demodulator. A hybrid tuner can only function in one mode at a time – it is either feeding IF to an analog demodulator or it is feeding IF to the digital demodulator, but not both simulateously
  • A dual tuner device on the other hand would actually contain two distinct tuner on board, and hence the device would be capable of reception of two signals simultaneously. However, I have never seen a single frontend that contains two tuner ICs, so dual tuner devices really are just a device with two frontends on board.
  • There are even a few tri or quad tuner devices ... I leave it to you to figure out how many frontends these devices have on board the card ;)
  • Modulation matters --- the different transmission sources (OTA, Cable, Sat) adhere to different transmission standards.
  • NTSC is the standard used in North America, and some other regions, for analog broadcast (i.e. terrestrial ... aka. over/off-the-air ... OTA) and cable transmissions ... NTSC can also refer to the commitee that developed the standard....the modulation scheme that the NTSC standard uses is difficult to explain, so I'll just leave it at saying that you can be assured that any TV card/device that is going to support analog NTSC needs a tuner that supports the NTSC modulation scheme and an analog demodulator that can handle the form of modulation employed in the NTSC signal .... similar case with PAL[/url systems (just insert PAL in every place I wrote NTSC)
    [*][URL="http://www.atsc.org/"]ATSC
    is the standard used in North America, and Korea (maybe others too now?), for terrestrial based digital television (DTV) broadcast transmissions (i.e Over/Off-The-Air ...OTA) ... ATSC can also refer to the commitee that developed the standard ... ATSC signals use a form of modulation called 8-VSB. So if you are going to pick up any ATSC signals, your receiver needs to have a tuner compliant with 8-VSB and a demodulator that can, well, demodulate a 8-VSB modulated RF signal...........the counterpart to ATSC in the rest of the world is DVB-T, which uses COFDM.
  • In North American, there are a number of different proprietary systems in place for Digital Cable transmissions, but they all conform to STCE standards.
  • Rant: Two common mistakes that are repeated over and over again on all the internet forums and websites are these:
  • People call it “ATSC digital cable”. That's incorrect. Here's the history : Back in the early 90's, when the various parties involved in the development of the next generation of TV systems to be used in N.A (which at the time was being referred to as the Advanced Television service; ATV) were going over a couple of different proposed systems, they created an organization called ATSC to specifically evaluate those proposed systems and also to help develop some general standards for DTV. ATSC's members include terrestrial, cable, sat, studios, etc, etc --- this is not strange, given it makes sense that there should be some common interoperability between the various providers of DTV material. Anyways, the ATSC organization played a key role in the development of common features to be followed for DTV (worldwide). They also, after evaluating the proposed systems, choose one and self named it the ATSC standard for OTA DTV transmission in North America. That's it. Whereas, as mentioned, for Digital Cable in North America, the providers conform to the SCTE standard. The common ground that digital cable systems that follow the STCE standard have with the ATSC standard is that many aspects of DTV available on these services are the same -- which, as explained, was done so by design ---> there is absolutely no need for each type of transmission delivery system to be providing its own flavour of DTV. Just look at the inoperability and retardedness of having different DVD standards (DVD-R/W, DVD+R/W, HD-DVD, BluRay....) ... its a consumers worst nightmare!
  • Second point is that people tend to call digital cable in North America QAM. However, QAM is simply the modulation scheme that digital cable tends to use. Furthermore, digital cable could use other types! (And indeed, there are a few rare digital cable providers that use 8-VSB modulation for example). So the point is that QAM does not equal digital cable, its just the likely, and in some ways defacto, modulation choice of most cable providers. Unfortunately, somehow that point got lost, and the internet is rampant with the colloquial association of QAM = Digital cable. But as stated, this is simply not the case. Whatever. At least now you know the truth. [I told you there was going to be rants!]
  • So if your receiver is going to support digital cable, its tuner and its demodulator both have to support the modulation scheme used by your provider. Invariably, this tends to be one the potential varieties of QAM – HDTV channels tend to use QAM256, whereas music channels (like Galaxy etc), and digitized analog channels (which your cable company passes off as digital ... as opposes to true DTV content which is digiatlly produced from the very get go) tend to use QAM64 or QAM256 ... it really depends on your provider.
  • Now here's the big catch --- DTV capture cards will only support reception of unencrypted content transmitted on the cable network. Some times you will see this also referred to as “unencrypted QAM” or "clear QAM". But those descriptions are really misnomers, as QAM is not the underlining signal itself, rather a just the modulation scheme used to convey a signal on a RF carrier . Your device's demodulator doesn't give a rats ass whether the underlining content/essence has been encrypted or not by your provider – its going to demodulate what ever it can. But if your device doesn't also provide a way to handle the conditional access necessary to decrypt the signal (or this support is not present somewhere offboard within your computer system), then your dead in the water. And guess what, no currently available DTV capture card can support conditional access; hence they only support reception of unencrypted sources.... in the near future, operating systems like Vista might support OCUR devices sanctioned by CableLabs (the official nazi body that has a vested interest between the studios and cable providers to lock the consumer into a perpetual rental system .... did I say nazis? silly me, I meant industry group)
  • The amount of available unencrypted DTV channels on a cable network varies from provider to provider. In the US, usually the local OTA HDTV channels and some general SDTV channels will be available in the clear on an unfiltered basic cable line (it will be unfiltered if you already have a cable internet service). Otherwise, all the premium networks and HD material, and the vast majority of their premium SDTV channels, are encrypted...you can only receive them by renting/buying their STBs and subscribing to one of those digital cable tiers. BTW, they use either a Motorolas DCII or Scientific Atlantic PowerVu encryption scheme. I believe those are very robust systems, as I have not heard of either of those being cracked, or any other way to get keys to do software based decryption. This contrasts with the case with satellite, where pirates abound.
  • And lastly, the counterpart to SCTE adhering digital cable is the DVB-C standard, which also uses different flavours of QAM.
  • There are a number of different DBS satellite standards – I'll just mention that service providers whose transmission system relies upon the DVB-S standard will have signals that employ QPSK modulation or 8-PSK modulation (although, IIRC, 8PSK is really only included in the more recent and later DVB-S2 standard ... never stopped Dish though!). Anyways, service providers like Dish, BEV, etc etc use encryption ... if you want to be a pirate, the internet is likely abound with discussion on ways of circumventing these systems ... have fun wadding through the noise.
Whew! Still with me? The important take home point from all of my lengthy tirade about standards and modulation is that modulation matters -- the hardware ICs used be a card/device have to support the specific function/application to which the card is intended. For example, you can't just slap any old tuner and demodulator on the card and expect it to receive digital signals delivered over cable --> you need specific hardware components on the card to work with a particular broadcast standard. Even at that, you then need the appropriate software support (both at low level of drivers & firmware and at higher levels of application support) for your hardware's capabilities to be taken utilized (not surprising right? I mean, what good is a printer without drivers or a word processor application to print from?). One area of support that is pretty spartan is what is seen when it comes to digital cable on Windows OS platforms. Indeed, Window's BDA driver model, as used by the MCE application under the MCE OS and other PVR applications, has always been to this point intentionally castrated and limited in that it suports only OTA sources. There is absolutely no necessity for all this..... hmmm, I wonder what the economic incentive behind all this is? I'll leave it up to you to decide ... but if you considered a world in which the consumer says “moo” and lines up with the rest of the herd to pay their monthly subscription fee to locked down protected content, then I'd hazard you aren't too far off some boardroom guys' conceived ideas of corporate utopia.

Anyways, let's now resume where we left off with the generalized description of a DTV capture card/devices stages of operation:
  • Step 3 – recall that the output from a digital demodulator is a Transport Stream (a compressed bitstream).
Conceptually, as the demodulator is the 2nd half of a frontend, it is a TS that is outputted from the receiver/frontend of the device.
  • Note that as the bitstream is already encoded (i.e. already in a compression format), this rules out the need for an encoding step. Hence the reason why you will find not find a DTV capture card/device that has hardware encoding for its digital functionality -- there's simply absolutely no need for them! * & **
* - in the near future, we may be seeing dtv cards/devices that have a hardware encoder onboard for processing of the digital signal. The encoding process they will undertake, however, is more appropriately described as transcoding -- they will take the already encoded bitstream, decode it, and then re-encode it into another compression format all on the fly (i.e. in realtime). However, for now, no such device exists ... personally, I would be sceptical of the resulting picture quality such devices will be able to achieve ... likely for down res'd application only at first.
** - There are a couple of DTV cards/devices that do indeed have MPEG2 encoders onboard, but bear in mind that these are used only for the purposes of encoding analog input sources (i.e. the analog gets digitized into an uncompressed component bitstream by an A/V decoder which in turn feeds that to the MPEG2 encoder for applying compression). As stated, there is no need for encoding of the DTV signal -- as it arrives/is recovered already encoded in MPEG2 format!...well, it could also be in MPEG4 format too, as noted above somewhere, but this isn't widespread yet
  • So, there are essentially two things you can do with the TS, and a total of three different ways you can go about those:

    (i) have the highly compressed MPEG2 content within the Transport Stream decoded into an uncompressed component bitstream that a display device can render on screen for immediate play/viewing purposes. To accomplish this, the device can be manufactured to either:
  • route the TS to an onboard hardware MPEG2 decoder. The benefit of an onboard MPEG2 decoder is that the system's host processor is relieved of that burden and, hence, free to carry out other tasks. But as a side consequence, in the case of HDTV resolutions, the decoded bitstream (i.e the raw, uncompressed RGB) can not be sent over the system bus (in the case of PCI ) because the necessary transfer rate is just to darn large (i.e its in well excess of the max rate that the PCI bus can theoretically achieve). So, instead, the card itself will also have to output the stream to the display device (i.e. it will have a frame buffer onboard as well). Many will claim that this provides the best solution to HDTV processing. Some will subscribe to it as being the second best thing since sliced bread...okay, I exaggerate..but the point is that (while I don't necessarily agree with their sentiment) it meets many peoples expectations. There currently is only a few such devices sold in retail still. Previously there were more manufacturers of such cards, but they've since ceased production. One of the draw backs of these devices is the software support ... in particular, they are currently limited to support on Windows platforms only, and even on then, because of the driver architecture they use, these cards are limited to use with the supplied software suite, as no third party apps support them.
or
  • route the TS off the card across the system bus to the host cpu for software based MPEG2 decoding. Cards that are software decoding based solutions constitute the bulwark of available DTV capture devices. As the MPEG2 decoding is done by the host processor via use of software decoder algorithms, this obviously, in the case of HDTV resolutions, requires a significant portion of the cpu's resources. However, much of this can be mitigated by offloading much of the decoding process onto the dedicated hardware of the system's graphic adapter. As mentioned earlier, most if not all video cards today support such acceleration that is made available by many MPEG2 software decoders/apps (its a combination thing - both the decoder and the viewing app have to support it, as well as the card and its drivers). Many modern video cards also support the more advanced rendering methods, which many individuals will argue are the cat's meow. So, with DTV software decoding cards, you get the opportunity to take advantage of that aspect if you so desire, whereas with a hardware based decoding card you are stuck with the framebuffers rendering method (typically overlay). Lastly, these "software decoding" cards are usually well supported on different OS platforms.
  • (ii) send the TS to an appropriate storage device for playback at a later point of time (maybe much later or perhaps just seconds later (after it was recovered) if you are performing timeshifting ala PVR ... i.e the stream is buffered to disk before it is decoded soon afterwards).
  • The second point in (i) and (ii) itself have one thing in common – sending the TS off the card/device and across the system bus. In order to do this the device requires a bridge to the PCI, PCIe or USus (given the respective nature/type the device is). With devices that also offer some form of analog input, the obvious candidate for the job is a A/V decoder....this precisely why you see those same decoder ICs (such as the BT878A, the CX2388x, SAA713x etc etc) that are used in analog devices also showing up in DTV hybrid devices. So to reiterate, the A/V decoder serves two functions in a DTV hybrid device: to provide the legacy analog functionality of the card and to act as a conduit to the system bus for the demodulated transport stream, in case of the digital functionality. If , on the other hand, the device/card is not a hybrid (i.e. doesn't support analog & digital) but rather a purely DTV device instead, then the A/V decoder will be forgone and a much simpler bridge device will be used instead.

And that's pretty much all there is too it.

So Lets Recap:

With a DTV capture card/device, the stages of operation are pretty much:

RF signal -> [Tuner] -> IF signal -> [demodulater] -> Trasport Stream, which from this point can be either routed to:

1) the system bus through a conduit (such as provided by an A/V decoder or specialized bridge chip can provide) and
  1. sent off to the host CPU for "software" based decoding, the product of which is an uncompressed component bitstream that can then be sent straight to the systems graphics adaptor for immediate rendering to the display device
    or
  2. written to disk, for either buffering (PVR) or storage (rainy day playback) purposes.
or (in the case of hardware decoding based cards/devices)

2) an onboard MPEG2 decoder, and the resultant uncompressed component bitstream is then directly output to the display device by an onboard framebuffer.
 

ddrueding

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Alright. I still haven't finished all of CityK's very detailed and extensive descriptions, but I need a simple recomendation.

I want to be able to display OTA (HD and standard) TV on my computer screen and/or VGA-based projector. I figure I'm in a metropolitan area and there's probably a fair bit of stuff available without another monthly bill. So to get the most out of it, what hardware am I looking at? A MyHD MDP-130? Some kind of antenna? Something else?

Thanks,
~David
 

sechs

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http://www.avsforum.com/

Particularly, there's an ongoing San Francisco HDTV OTA thread that you may wish to reference if shooting for that. There are also a number of hardware fora well beyond my means and understanding....
 

CityK

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I want to be able to display OTA (HD and standard) TV on my computer screen and/or VGA-based projector. I figure I'm in a metropolitan area and there's probably a fair bit of stuff available without another monthly bill. So to get the most out of it, what hardware am I looking at? A MyHD MDP-130? Some kind of antenna? Something else?
MDP-130 is a good card (and it may indeed be perfect for your situation), BUT there are a number of points about it that any buyer should consider, and to be honest, I feel the limitations it has far out way its niceties. eg. cost, no 3rd party application support, presently Windows only, no hyperthreading support, some dual core setups seem to give it trouble (might be just the posters being noobs though -- AVS forums is full of them), output options limited to card's onboard framebuffer, blah blah, blah blah blah...

If you're only aiming for OTA, AND are not interested in receiving unecrypted digital cable, AND you're only going to be using it on Windows platform, AND you have a PVR app in mind (Sage, ...), AND you're not interested in analog on the card, then a cheap alternative would be the VBox 150. Check out pcalchemy for pricing. Output to your projector would then be handled by your video card, so I guess your decision should factor what its capabilities are too.

What kind of playback environment are you interested in (PVR or would a manufacturers bundled software suffice) ?

Anyway, as for antenna, my recommendation is always try out the basics first -- if you have an old pair of rabbit ears or dipole from a TV, or bipole from a stereo/receiver try that out first -- you might be very surprised what you might be able to receive. Moving up from that, the small indoor SilverSensor antenna is excellent (you should be able to find it easily and its plenty cheap..a number of manufacturers sell it Philips/Zeneith/Terk/antiference ... I paid 16CDN for mine). Moving up from that, a good outdoor antenna is the Channel Master cm4228 (maybe $60-70?). You could always build your own too if you felt the pressing urge. If you have broadcast towers in multiple directions, then you could consider a pair of directional antennas or an omni-directional.
 

CityK

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Just a thought too, as I know you like toys, and might find this very interesting, have a look at the HDHomeRun. Essentially, its an embedded network device with twin receivers.
 

ddrueding

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Just a thought too, as I know you like toys, and might find this very interesting, have a look at the HDHomeRun. Essentially, its an embedded network device with twin receivers.

Oh, that looks very interesting. I think I'll get one of them. But I do need an indoor antenna as well, most stations are 30+ miles away.
 

CityK

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30 miles is nothing dd.

In real estate, they say the key thing is location location location.

With antenna's the key thing is elevation elevation elevation, line of sight line of sight line of sight .... which, really, is the just the same thing as location location location when it all boils down.
 

ddrueding

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With antenna's the key thing is elevation elevation elevation, line of sight line of sight line of sight .... which, really, is the just the same thing as location location location when it all boils down.

Unfortunatly, those are 2 things I can't have. There are no mountains between me and the antenna I'm after, but an internal antenna will be a must and there are a few buildings in the way.
 

CityK

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sorry dave, I misread your above post -- had it in my head that you were saying "I need a outdoor antenna cause I'm 30 miles away from the towers!"

Its hard to say whether your obstructions will affect you or not -- antennas are all about trial and error. How the demodulator of your receiver handles multipath (if any has been introduced into your received signals) is the other important piece of the puzzle.
 

mubs

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As an aside:

I had purchased a Hauppauge Win TV Go Plus 8+ months ago, but didn't get a chance to use it till now. Weirdly, that product is gone from their web site, with only the WinTV GO listed.

Their drivers s-u-c-k. I've got the cable-TV coax hooked up to it. Pic is black-n-white only, and there is no sound other than a heck of a lot of static.


Not a happy camper. :frusty:
 
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