UN Security Council

[Tannin]

In another Thread:

The rules are made by all forum members or at least, by the boss-of-it-all... handruin. I know that handruin agrees with all (or almost all) your points, but I strongly disagree with the current practices. ..... You know, the whole thing reminds me of the UN Security Council and the permanent members which can always veto a decision... Thus, I don't see a day when the UNSC will ever be made of non-permanent members with equal rights and powers. That's why UN is a sock puppet organization. You're a smart guy, do the analogy.

Ah, now here you raise a point which is a very hot topic right now.

The final authority for decisions around here rests not with Webmaster Handruin but with the 13-member Admin Team. (You may recall that you yourself were invited to be a member of this team when Storage Forum was still just a gleam in Daddy Handruin's eye, Prof, but you never replied to my emails. I seem to remember discussing it with you later and discovering that you had changed your email address. Or something like that anyway. There were about 30-odd people invited, and the original twelve were the ones that (a) actually got the message, and (b) chose to join in.)

So far as I understand it, it has always been the intention of the Admin Team to rotate itself out and rotate other members in, bit by bit over time. So that, for example, Adcadet and I step down at the end of June and the Admin Team chooses to replacements for us: let's say Prof. Wizard and The Bartender. (I chose Adcadet for my example just now for the obvious reason - alphabetical order! Don't you just hate starting with "A", Andrew?)

However the actual implementation of that policy - and even perhaps the policy itself - is a very hot topic, and debate about the correctness of it, and if correct, the proper way to implement it, is flowing thick and fast at present.

This particular "Security Council", in other words, should include at some stage or other, all nations. Or at least a sufficiently broad and representative sub-set of "all nations" to ensure that the management of Storage Forum remains dedicated to the service of and compliant with the wishes of its members.

I don't think it would be proper of me to give chapter and verse of the Admin Team's deliberations, and I certainly don't intend to say "Member X favours Plan A, but Member Y favours Plan B", but I will say that there seems to be a tentative agreement that the rollover plan should go ahead (although no formal decision has been taken), and that possible starting dates for it are under consideration. (This is a polite way of saying "we are having a great big barney about this right now".)

When there is a firm decision, I'll be sure to let you know. Assuming, of course, that I am still in office at that time.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

The final authority for decisions around here rests not with Webmaster Handruin but with the 13-member Admin Team. (You may recall that you yourself were invited to be a member of this team when Storage Forum was still just a gleam in Daddy Handruin's eye, Prof, but you never replied to my emails. I seem to remember discussing it with you later and discovering that you had changed your email address. Or something like that anyway. There were about 30-odd people invited, and the original twelve were the ones that (a) actually got the message, and (b) chose to join in.)

Exactly. I never received a single mail from you Tannin. I only received a mail from Mercutio a couple of fortnights after this site was on and I joined in.

So far as I understand it, it has always been the intention of the Admin Team to rotate itself out and rotate other members in, bit by bit over time. So that, for example, Adcadet and I step down at the end of June and the Admin Team chooses to replacements for us: let's say Prof. Wizard and The Bartender. (I chose Adcadet for my example just now for the obvious reason - alphabetical order! Don't you just hate starting with "A", Andrew?)

I don't like alphabetical order. Maybe because I was the last name in my class in high-school and I have been complexed.
I suggest registration date (which even this is late for me but I find it far more right and objective) or a nomination-voting system. Hey, I'm Greek. I believe in democratic procedures, not king-heir appointments. If someone is good as admin we might even vote for him to stay "in office" for another term. Don't you think?

This particular "Security Council", in other words, should include at some stage or other, all nations. Or at least a sufficiently broad and representative sub-set of "all nations" to ensure that the management of Storage Forum remains dedicated to the service of and compliant with the wishes of its members.

Exactly. The wishes of ALL members. Old and new.

When there is a firm decision, I'll be sure to let you know. Assuming, of course, that I am still in office at that time.

Good to know. Thank you. You can always ICQ me, too. :wink:

-------------------
BTW, one of the things I love in the e-world is the decreased bureaucracy. Why do we need to have handruin plus an admin plus 5 moderators plus a guy responsible for front-page news plus... janitor, cook, clerk, etc...

Why don't we just have handruin and 3-4 moderators (around the globe) responsible for every job around the site? (front page news, articles, links, moderation, etc.)

 

[Tea]

Eeek! If I let Tannin anywhere near this thread, he'll be typing away all night and I'll never get to play any Age of Empires.

 

[CougTek]

The rules are made by all forum members or at least, by the boss-of-it-all... handruin. I know that handruin agrees with all (or almost all) your points, but I strongly disagree with the current practices. ..... That's why UN is a sock puppet organization. You're a smart guy, do the analogy.

If it was just of me PeeWee, you would be banned from the admin possible candidates list for quite a while (in fact, until you gain what's commonly called maturity). Your frequent whining like : Oh, why can't I be a moderator, I want to be a moderator, why don't you let me be a moderator and then the above I want to be an admin, it's not fair if I'm not an admin, I disagree with the current practives of this site BECAUSE I'M NOT AN ADMIN and gnagnagna, snif snif. In short, it's called whining and unfortunately for you, it gets on my nerves. IMO, the best reason not to give you any more rights than what you currently have is that you're frequently asking (whining) about it.

I don't like alphabetical order.

Like it or not, you don't have a damn word to say about it. The current admin team is made of people who both cared a lot about SR (and now about SF) and are sufficiently level-headed. You're showing you miss the second criteria to be part of the executive board.

I suggest registration date (which even this is late for me but I find it far more right and objective) or a nomination-voting system.

Kid, it rained before you arrived. All this has already been discussed (and still is) by the admin team. With the site so young in its existence, there's no hurry, no matter how much you'll be begging for added responsabilities.

Exactly. The wishes of ALL members. Old and new.

...and wise enough. Besides, we currently can't allow every member to be part of the decision process, mainly because pop-up/visit once members (ie, those without sufficient commitment here) could affect the operation of the site in a way that regulars might not have chosen otherwise.

Why do we need to have handruin plus an admin plus 5 moderators plus a guy responsible for front-page news plus... janitor, cook, clerk, etc...

Why don't we just have handruin and 3-4 moderators (around the globe) responsible for every job around the site? (front page news, articles, links, moderation, etc.)

Answer #1 As long as it's working fine, you don't have to know, it's not your problem.

Answer #2 I'm on a good day today, so I'll let you know a bit more. Because Handruin has many other things to do so he can't do more. A for the need for more than 3-4 admins, it's currently discussed by the admin team and there are very good reasons to have a relatively large group. Anyway, you shouldn't ask for a reduced team. Your "around the world" is a lame attempt to get yourself into the executive board. If you're not part of a twelve admins group, you're even less likely to be part of a four admins group.

Something you better get used to is that this site will never be run YOUR way, even if you finally (and against my will) make it to the admin team. The final decision will always be taken by the majority of the admin group. Period. If you're sufficiently persuasive, you might have more success to convince the other admins of adopting your ideas, but the above whining, baby-lost-his-toy style isn't going to cut it among the elite members, I can insure you.

You want an advice? Stop thinking (and asking) about it and then maybe, MAYBE, you'll be considered.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Sometimes I wonder, CouchTest, WTF you think you are?!

 

[Prof.Wizard]

And something else... if I ever wanted to enter the admin/moderator team, I would have ICQed/PMed handruin first for his personal opinion.

I don't want to have ANY responsibility for the time being cause I don't have the necessary time to devote. The "around the globe" issue isn't a lame attempt as you try to present it (how naive?!) but YOUR ABSOLUTE LAGGGGGGGGGGGGING TIME TO POST MY F/#$N' NEWS. I LIKE TO SUBMIT IN THE MORNING (CET) WHEN YOU ARE DEAD ASLEEP, DORK, THAT'S WHY WE NEED MORE FRONTPAGE EDITORS. CAUSE WHEN YOU POST MY NEWS THEY ALREADY STINK HALF A DAY LATER. Now compare this with your mods-around-the-globe initiative. For the same reason.

I'm not masturbating with power or authority as you might do, neither I wanted this healthy discussion to precipitate to your below-the-ground level. And, old man, try to live with it... I'll talk about these matters as long as I want...

 

[Tea]

Hmmm... Seeing as this thread started as a spin-off from a thread about moderation, and looking at the level of personal atack it seems to have degenerated to ... maybe there is a need for five full-time mods! :wink:

 

[Tannin]

Don't be ridiculous, Tea.

Here we have a perfect example ....

(You mean an imperfect example, don't you?)

(Shutup, furry-face.)

Ahem... A perfect example of free speech and democracy in action. This is what is known as "robust debate", I think. :wink: But under all the name-calling and bluster, there are real issues.

If I have to put up with The Giver, Coug, it seems only fair that you should have to put up with your nemesis too. The Prof and I are old sparring partners, and we have had many a blue over the last year or two, but this time I think he is right. Or, at least, he is asking some questions that most certainly deserve answers.

The Prof is entitled to the same rights as any other member here, subject only to the same rules as apply to you or me or (ahh, who was that most-recently-joined gentleman? ah yes.. ) The Devil's Advocate. And let us not forget that he is at least showing an interest in the good management of Storage Forum - something that all too few of us do, it seems.

The thing is, The Prof does have "a damn word to say about it". He is a member here in good standing. He comes regularly, says his little bit, and has been doing that for long enough to accumulate 500-odd posts. He is a part of the place, same as you and me and even (to my great sorrow) The Giver. So long as I am in the Chair here, the Prof's legitimate concerns deserve to be taken seriously.

(What? You? Take The Prof seriously? What have you been drinking, Tannin?)

(Shutup, Tea.)

In the other thread where this discussion started, he has raised several matters that (it occurrs to me with the wisdom of hindsight) have not been explained very well before, or possibly not explained at all. Moderation policy, IP tracking for mods, the input that general (i.e., non-admin) members may reasonably expect into this place - a whole host of stuff that cannot really be very clear to anyone who hasn't had the benefit of access to the private Admin Forum.

But before you go ripping into Cougtek too hard, Prof, pay attention to the paragraph where he mentions the difficulty of running a site like this in a truly democratic way. His point is valid: there just isn't any way (at least not that I have ever heard of) to institute a formal democracy at a site like this. For starters, how on earth would you come up with a formula to determine who is legitimately entitled to a vote and who is just a blow-in, a sock-puppet, or a stooge?

The real question is - "so what is the next best thing?"

Well, I can think of two things (not that I'd want to claim either of them as my own idea). First, the Admin Team can try to be open about policy matters, to announce them here in this Feedback Forum so that everybody knows what is going on. And we can try to be alert to suggestions, ideas, complaints, whatever. And for this too, the Feedback Forum is the best place to have your say. On the whole, I think we have a pretty good record in this regard. (And yes, you did right to bring these matters up.)

The second thing is to encourge a gradual turnover of Admin Team members and general members, so that from time to time there are new faces on the Admin Team. This is something that I have personally always been in favour of, and nothing has come along to change my mind about it yet. So far as I am concerned, the only question is how often and when - but this is my personal view. Official Storage Forum policy seems to be approval of the principle but a great deal of vagueness about the practice. Discussion is continuing. If there is a decision anytime before the end of my term in the chair, I'll let you know. If it takes longer than that (which it might well do - it's an important decision and we only get one chance to get it right ) then I should imagine that my successor will pass the word on.

(What's that? Oh all right Tea. Yes, we can go and play in the Pub and Brewery now. But no more top shelf for you, OK? You remember what happened last time.)

 

[Prof.Wizard]

But before you go ripping into Cougtek too hard, Prof, pay attention to the paragraph where he mentions the difficulty of running a site like this in a truly democratic way. His point is valid: there just isn't any way (at least not that I have ever heard of) to institute a formal democracy at a site like this. For starters, how on earth would you come up with a formula to determine who is legitimately entitled to a vote and who is just a blow-in, a sock-puppet, or a stooge?

This is where the IPs might become useful. But then again, the whole procedure should be run by Handruin.

First, the Admin Team can try to be open about policy matters, to announce them here in this Feedback Forum so that everybody knows what is going on. And we can try to be alert to suggestions, ideas, complaints, whatever. And for this too, the Feedback Forum is the best place to have your say. On the whole, I think we have a pretty good record in this regard. (And yes, you did right to bring these matters up.)

Wasn't that happening already?

The second thing is to encourge a gradual turnover of Admin Team members and general members, so that from time to time there are new faces on the Admin Team. This is something that I have personally always been in favour of, and nothing has come along to change my mind about it yet. So far as I am concerned, the only question is how often and when - but this is my personal view. Official Storage Forum policy seems to be approval of the principle but a great deal of vagueness about the practice. Discussion is continuing. If there is a decision anytime before the end of my term in the chair, I'll let you know. If it takes longer than that (which it might well do - it's an important decision and we only get one chance to get it right ) then I should imagine that my successor will pass the word on.

Call it as you want: Admin team, Steering Committee, President's Advisory Panel, whatever...
Just don't moderate a thread of mine without me knowing it. And post my darn submitted news in time!


I don't want "credit" for being a regular member here. I like the place and the members' feedback, that's why I'm here. But since almost all of us come from the same background (SR), I want to be aware of the decisions and the workings of SF...

 

[Mercutio]

Moderators are in charge of moderation. The admin team discusses the occasional policy issue. Probably 80% of the days SF has been operating, there have been no posts inside the admin group at all. We did a lot of initial planning and as such there isn't tons to do.

And yes, most of the time, what's being discussed in the admin group spills out here into feedback, although that's not done entirely purposefully.

 

[CougTek]

[bait]

but YOUR ABSOLUTE LAGGGGGGGGGGGGING TIME TO POST MY F/#$N' NEWS. I LIKE TO SUBMIT IN THE MORNING (CET) WHEN YOU ARE DEAD ASLEEP, DORK, THAT'S WHY WE NEED MORE FRONTPAGE EDITORS. CAUSE WHEN YOU POST MY NEWS THEY ALREADY STINK HALF A DAY LATER.

oh tututut, kid does not only want his candy, he wants it on time. I'm sorry, I never realized the immediate approval of your news was so primordial. I'm sure everone deeply suffers from only seeing your announcements appear half a day late. From now on, I'll try to wake up every night at 3am just to check if you have submited one of your life-essential news (dream on).

I'm not masturbating with power or authority as you might do,...

I think you're mistaken. It's another member who is interested (or used to be) in sexually explicit discussion, not me.

neither I wanted this healthy discussion to precipitate to your below-the-ground level.

I was simply trying to find a level appropriate to communicate with you, since anything more level-headed has failed.

And, old man, try to live with it... I'll talk about these matters as long as I want...

I don't have to be very old to see you as a kid, son. And feel free to continue to write on the same level you have accustomed us to. It's always good for my ego to read your posts.
[/bait]

 

[CougTek]

But since almost all of us come from the same background (SR), I want to be aware of the decisions and the workings of SF...

You're not aware of the decisions and the workings of SR or any other site you visit, why would you be here?

 

[Prof.Wizard]

oh tututut, kid does not only want his candy, he wants it on time. I'm sorry, I never realized the immediate approval of your news was so primordial. I'm sure everone deeply suffers from only seeing your announcements appear half a day late. From now on, I'll try to wake up every night at 3am just to check if you have submited one of your life-essential news (dream on).

You don't have to wake-up. Just admit you can't do the job alone.

I think you're mistaken. It's another member who is interested (or used to be) in sexually explicit discussion, not me.

Oh right, I forgot you are sexually disorientated...

I was simply trying to find a level appropriate to communicate with you, since anything more level-headed has failed.

Keep trying. Going back all school grades might help you...

I don't have to be very old to see you as a kid, son. And feel free to continue to write on the same level you have accustomed us to. It's always good for my ego to read your posts.

Right on, old man. BTW, to see who's kid and who's whining we only have to read your signature. Maybe you fail to configure a simple Windows box, that's all...

You're not aware of the decisions and the workings of SR or any other site you visit, why would you be here?

Because this site's origin is different from all others. All (initial) members share the same legacy: members of SR.
And what do you know about my awareness of SR or other sites? Zip it cause you don't know anything about my discussions with Eugene and others.

 

[time]

Tannin, IMHO now is not a good time to recruit PW to support your campaign. I respectfully suggest you focus on restoring calm for now.

CougTek, cool it. I know he was bending over with a sign saying "Kick Me", but you need to exercise restraint.

Prof, there's no doubt you get right up CougTek's nose, but most of his points were valid, and you made it incredibly easy for him to score them. I don't know what's troubling you right now, but this isn't the best place to express your frustrations.

However, we pride ourselves on being fair minded. I don't believe this incident will be used against you in the future, if and when you're prepared to swallow your bile.

I suggest you wait until you can accept this before continuing this discussion.