Upgrading Linux is such a pain.

[CougTek]

KDE 3.04 has been released earlier this month. It's available in RPM and SRPM format on kde.org. A RPM package is supposed to be "click-and-run" from what I read on the Net. Clicking on the farious .rpm I downloaded to upgrade my KDE version simply fails. When I double-click any of the many .rpm files I downloaded, I receive an error message telling me that I'm missing some files (dependency problem). How can I have dependency problems since I'm using KDE 3.03? How stupid is that?

There's no real detailed "how-to" on KDE's web site, at least none that is easily accessable (if there's a link, it's not obvious). I found this for helping me to compile the source code (haven't tried it yet), but nothing about the .rpm. If I need to copy those files in a certain directory, is it that hard to write where?

The same goes for many other programs under Linux. You follow the (often scant) installation instructions you find on the author's web site, but for some mysterious reasons, it doesn't work as advertized.

No wonder why Linux can't compete against the bloated Winblows on the desktop scene. Every damn upgrgade or installation is a pain, purely and simply. Linux developpers seem to take for granted that everyone of their users already knows all the basics of Linux' way of working. I admit I'm way better at fixing hardware issues than software thingies, but still, I have advanced computer knowledge but I can't make my damn Linux installation work properly. How can you expect to seduce the mass when guys like me can't find their way in this environment.

Other complains :

• Once you told your distro that you want to start any Xfree86-based environment (Gnome or KDE), there's apparently no easy way to just quit the window manager and return to the shell. You can open a terminal, but I haven't found how to just quit KDE. This is a shame that such an option isn't included just aside the Logout button.
  
  There is a "kill" function on Linux that you can use to terminate a (usually crashed) program. I didn't find where was that function on KDE or Gnome.
  
  I have yet to find something similar to Winblows' task manager on Linux. A task manager listing how much memory each application uses and with a kill button would be very useful.
  
  RPM that do work. I have yet to find ONE. That or anything else that would allow me to have a single-click executable that would install properly the program I'm trying to get on my system. The complicated instructions to install every damn applications on Linux is unforgivable. I mean, whatever the distro (or at least the main distros), the file structure is more or less the same (/, /root, /home, /usr, /var, /usr/lib, etc). What is so hard in creating a simple installation file that would simply dispatch the files where they should be? Hey, it's far more complicated on Winblows (writing lines in various Windows' core files) but everyone seems able to make one. Creating a correct installation file on Linux shouldn't be more complicated than making a dumb .bat on DOS. I'm no programmer, but I was able to do that. Why no one has done it yet on Linux is hard to understand.
  
  Make compiling programs easier. Most distro compile programs for an i386. Some go as far as the i586 instructions. With that in mind, why don't we already have an option where we could just right-click on a source-code file and see a "re-compile with XXX compiler"? This should have been integrated into the windows environment long ago.
  
  Stop to require Root priviledge for installing applications where they should be (/usr). This is a real pain and a time-losing step. You won't corrupt the whole kernel just by adding a directory and a few files in /usr, so why asking root login? Just protect the places where the kernel's guts are and give me a little peace about the rest. The way things currently are, this incite the users to clutter their /home directory. From what I read on Linux desired files locations, this isn't an ideal situation. Currently, on my default installation of Mandrake 9, I have to log as root to add a pluggin for netscape-like browsers in /usr/lib/netscape/pluggins. This is utterly unacceptable unless you want to scare people from using your OS.

So far, Using the applications that came with the original package of Mandrake 9 (the same applied for RedHat 7.3) is smooth and easy. But as soon as I want to modify this or that, then it's a free ticket for a trip to Hell. I don't want to have to be an expert of Linux' structure just to customize and update my desktop. And I certainly don't want my customers to be Linux-gurus too if they want to manage their computers too. Although there's been progress, Linux is still for people who like to mess with the core of their OS rather than those who simply want to use their computer. For the ease of use, I'll pass.

 

[Bozo]

Have you ever tried to change screen resolution, color depth, or refresh rate??

I think it's imposible once the OS is installed.

Bozo

 

[Clocker]

Yep...that's why every time I try Linux, it is on my machine no more than a week or two.

C

 

[Dozer]

I have yet to find something similar to Winblows' task manager on Linux. A task manager listing how much memory each application uses and with a kill button would be very useful.

Try KDE System Guard (Under Applications-Monitoring on my Mandrake 8 system running KDE 3). It shows all of your running processes, memory %, and allows you to kill processes (very similar to Windows).

Although there's been progress, Linux is still for people who like to mess with the core of their OS rather than those who simply want to use their computer. For the ease of use, I'll pass.

I totally agree--upgrading/tweaking is not for the faint at heart, nor the average user. We have a long way to go before Linux becomes a usable solution for the masses!

 

[Mercutio]

Coug, if you want package management that works, try Debian or a derivative. apt-get is just about as easy as things come in Linux.

Personally, I download and compile sources for most of my stuff, mostly so I get a little bit better idea of how things work than just running rpm -Uvh.

 

[CougTek]

I read that installing Debian is much harder than installing one of the big three (Mandrake, RedHat, SuSe) since there's no GUI installer. What kind of issues might I have if I install Debian (or Libranet, dunno which one is simpler/works best) with just KDE/Gnome and a few desktop-related applications like Mozilla, OpenOffice and perhaps maybe also Apache 2.0.43 (just to try)?

Does get-apt allows me to update KDE, Mozilla and/or deeper things like the kernel?

Also, how complicated is it to install from the source-code? I would rather not have to resort to some kind of weird geeky ritual in order to make my applications work optimally.

Try KDE System Guard (Under Applications-Monitoring on my Mandrake 8 system running KDE 3). It shows all of your running processes, memory %, and allows you to kill processes (very similar to Windows).

Thanks, I'll try it later this evening or tomorrow and tell you how I like it. It would be great if I could get rid of an instance of Galeon or Mozilla, when it enters an infinite loop, without having to logout of my current session.

 

[Mercutio]

Honestly, Coug, I haven't installed debian in ages, so I don't know how bad it is. I imagine there's decent instructions out there somewhere. I'd might debian, but for the fact that I have some philisophical disagreements with the people who run the project (GNU/Richard Stallman). I guess distrowatch is your friend for that one.
rpm is broken and it has been for a long time. What do you expect from Caldera, the people who brought us "SCO Unix with a Linux kernel"?

apt-get lets you upgrade everything packaged with debian for sure (mozilla, KDE, Xfree, c libs etc). I don't know how much 3rd party stuff is out there.

And yes Bozo, you most certainly can change screen parameters after installation. The tool is called xfree86config or Xconfigurator.

 

[Bozo]

Mercutio: I've tried those. Most times it trashes the install, or it makes a mess of the screen. Also (maybe I'm missing something here) running those utilities from a command prompt is not what I would call easy or intuitive.
'Right click on the desktop and select properties' change settings at will, if they don't work, the original desktop will return in 15 seconds.

To install programs, insert the CD and follow instructions.

Granted, in an office enviroment, it's the IT department the usually adds software and helps with the desktop. But, if it takes 20 minutes to install new software rather than 10, and you have 300+ computers to do...........
Time is money, and Linux is not cost effective in that sense. But with MS's new licensing policy, maybe things will change.

Bozo

 

[Dozer]

I agree, it's much easier to configure a computer with the advent of Windows. But Linux IS free (for the most part), and once you get used to the way things are done in Linux, it's not too bad.

I'm sure that it was not as easy to configure/install programs back in the early phases of its development. However, most of us did not have access to this software. Linux, OTOH, is a readily available, open OS that we can download in a variety of flavors. While I agree, Bozo, that it is not ready for mainstream use, I think we have seen some serious improvements in Linux and will continue to see these improvements, eventually making Linux a viable alternative to Windows. I know that it is more stable than most of my Windows machines here at home. And I also know I've had to do a lot more reading to get up to speed with Linux (and I learn something new every day!)--perhaps this is the real cost of Linux.

 

[CougTek]

Try KDE System Guard (Under Applications-Monitoring on my Mandrake 8 system running KDE 3).

Just what I wanted. It's still at the same place in MDK 9.0 BTW.

I passed my day looking for a way to install KDE 3.0.4, but failed so far. Since there's apparently no instructions on where I should save the many .rpm files needed to update KDE, I saved them in a /home/(my user name)/KDE304 directory. From there, when I'm log as root, I typed rpm *.rpm -Uvh, but I received an error message like what I'm missing the file libqt3-devel in order to install the rpm package. Stupid as possible IMO, since I already have KDE version just prior to KDE 3.0.4 already installed on my system. Oh well... I opened rpmdrake 9.0 to look for the problematic file and see where it is. Found it using the search function, but since I passed my installation CDs to someone else, I can't install it for now. How can my KDE 3.0.3 works just fine without libqt3-devel but KDE 3.0.4 needs it to be installed? Linux mysteries...

During my endless researches, I stumbled on a way to setup an IM application on Linux to access to my MSN account. GAIM can be configured for MSN. Not much eye candy there, but at least it doesn't crash every ten minutes like AMSN.

I'm slowly making my distro more usable as a desktop OS. But what a pain it is. The only thing I found to be relatively simple is to recompile the kernel, but I have currently no reason to do it since I already have 2.4.19-16 installed. At least I'll know how when 2.6 will be released in the second quarter next year.

 

[i]

I can understand your frustration Cougtek ... upgrading components of a Linux system can be a chore sometimes.

I keep detailed notes in a dedicated notebook any time I install/change/update something in my Linux system. It's very useful when the installation for xxxxx software winds up taking longer than expected. The next time I build a Linux system, and I try to remember exactly how I managed to get xxxxx software application working before, I can just consult my notebook instead of going through the whole painful discovery process again.

I sometimes run into that "missing dependency" issue when installing software on my RedHat Linux system. Here's what I do:

1) Write down which files are missing
2) Go to http://www.rpmfind.net/ and search for the files, thus locating the rpm package(s) that contain those very files
3) Download and install the required rpm packages directly from rpmfind.net (being certain to get the ones for the correct distribution and version of my OS)

Rpmfind.net is a fantastic resource, but it can be a bit complicated to navigate (actually, it looks like it's down right now). When I first started using it, I found myself frequently asking, "yes, ok, that's the file I need ... but how the heck do I download it?" The links seem to be poorly placed on the site, especially those that lead to actual files instead of just information pages about the files. Once you've used it a few times you know where to look though.

On very rare occasions what will happen is that you develop of sort of "tree" of dependent files. For example, in order to install the xxxxx software package, I might need to install certain other library files that the xxxxx software depends on. But then I discover that those files in turn depend on other files again, and so forth. This is where keeping a notebook and writing down where you started, what you need, and where you're going proves to be very helpful.

Linux is still not an ideal operating system for those with little patience.

Then again, the sense of accomplishment when you finally get a powerful feature or application working smoothly in Linux makes it all worthwhile (for me ... obviously not for others).

To me, hacking and configuring Linux is no more difficult than doing the same with Win3.x and DOS. Not in the least. And the result is certainly more powerful. I guess there are fewer people here with experience from back in that era than I thought. Or maybe the very thought of what they dealt with back then drives them crazy. :wink:

Anyway, Cougtek, I thought you were a big fan of OpenBSD, no? I've never installed Debian, but I'd be surprised if the Debian installation process was any more difficult than the installation process for OpenBSD.

If you're really worried about the Debian installation process, by coincidence an article titled, "The Very Verbose Debian 3.0 Installation Walkthrough," was just posted over at OSnews. You can read it here.

Bozo:
XFree86 can also be a pain to deal with. When adjusting refresh rates and resolutions, if I find that the tools included with my distribution don't help any, I just edit the XFree86 config files by hand. I consult the documentation for my monitor and video card to clarify exactly what the maximum frequencies really are, and then search around a bit on Google to find someone with a modeline compatible with my hardware. Frequently I will double-check those results by going to handy online modeline generator at http://www.dkfz-heidelberg.de/spec/linux/modeline/ because using incorrect values can damage your hardware.

All that said, in a few more months changing refresh rates and resolutions in Linux will become as simple as it is in Windows ... only with even more powerful options. On October 10th, it was announced that a new extension for XFree86 called "RandR" would be included by V4.3. You can read more about it here.

 

[CougTek]

Anyway, Cougtek, I thought you were a big fan of OpenBSD, no?

Heuu....well, yes and no.I know I have the ISO for OpenBSD 3.1 here somewhere, but I haven't installed it yet. About the only things I know about OpenBSD is that it is probably the OS with the fewest security holes and that version 3.2 will be released on November 1st.

Thanks for all the tips i. I'll check rpmfind.net next time I'll mess with my Linux box, but I'm fed up for this week-end. Sure, succeeding to install/update something on Linux can be very self-rewarding, but it's also very time-consuming. Since time is one thing I'm trying to find these days, losing my week-end on that stubborn OS didn't please me much. I've learned a lot, but now I'm off Linux for a little while.

This is also why I won't try Debian in the short future. I saw the article you linked on OSNews a few minutes before visiting the forum and reading your post, but when I thought about reading it and spending even more time to develop headaches for Linux, I simply went elsewhere on the Net.

I might as well try FreeBSD 4.7 next time. Afterall, most of the 'NIX applications I use also work on it and it can hardly be more of a pain to deal with than Linux. Also supposed to be even more secured and maybe also a bit faster, according to what I read. Xfree86 and KDE work on BSD I think, Apache too and I'm sure I can find a good browser on this OS. Since FreeBSD can run 90% of Linux compatible applications, what will I be mising? GAIM maybe?

Anyway, I'll think about all this another day. Now it's the World Serie and nothing else.

 

[James]

I'm a big fan of FreeBSD, Coug - if there's anything I can help you with, let me know.