Vacuum Tube Motherboard?

flagreen

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I saw a link to this in another forum and it looked so odd I thought I would post it over here. At first I thought it was a fake looking at the image below, but then the link to A-open seems genuine enough. It's been or 30 years or more since I've seen one of the machines in a drug store that tests vacuum tubes. Anyone else remember them?

AX4B-533-art4-web.jpg


Link - http://www.aopen.com/products/mb/ax4b-533Tube.htm
 

CougTek

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I don't think it's an efficient solution. Look at the space it takes on the board (and the PCI slots it cuts). I have no idea how good (or bad) this thing sounds, but I would be surprised if it would be better than a cheapo 20$ speaker set (20U$, not 20AU$). Maybe it can be useful in very space restricted design where no external speakers is allowed, but I doubt it has any future.
 

Cliptin

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CougTek said:
I don't think it's an efficient solution. Look at the space it takes on the board (and the PCI slots it cuts). I have no idea how good (or bad) this thing sounds, but I would be surprised if it would be better than a cheapo 20$ speaker set (20U$, not 20AU$). Maybe it can be useful in very space restricted design where no external speakers is allowed, but I doubt it has any future.

It hopefully will sound like a tube amp. While this is the first tube amp implementation I've seen on a motherboard, I've also not seen a tube amp implementation in external PC speakers.

Is this the cart before the horse?
 

Prof.Wizard

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Let's wait official and objective reviews of this mobo.
It would be really neat if it really gave the sound quality advantage its manufacturers say it gives...
 

CougTek

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Prof.Wizard said:
It would be really neat if it really gave the sound quality advantage its manufacturers say it gives...
The same could be said about other products too :

"It would be really neat if it really gave the stability and overall advantage its manufacturers say it gives..." Windows XP
 

Prof.Wizard

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CougTek said:
"It would be really neat if it really gave the stability and overall advantage its manufacturers say it gives..." Windows XP
It gives them so say it loud and clear: Windows XP. Hurray! 8)
 

time

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:rofl:

You wouldn't want to spill water on it, would you? :D Despite their method of providing the high voltages for the tube, I wonder if they will be able to get it past safety certifications? After all, the inside of a PC is user-accessible.

What a huge joke! Valves were good when musicians overdrove Marshall amps. As any kind of HiFi, they suck badly and always have. To say this motherboard is catering to the fringe element would be an understatement. I imagine members of the Flat Earth Society have already placed their orders. :wink:
 

Pradeep

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time said:
:rofl:

You wouldn't want to spill water on it, would you? :D Despite their method of providing the high voltages for the tube, I wonder if they will be able to get it past safety certifications? After all, the inside of a PC is user-accessible.

What a huge joke! Valves were good when musicians overdrove Marshall amps. As any kind of HiFi, they suck badly and always have. To say this motherboard is catering to the fringe element would be an understatement. I imagine members of the Flat Earth Society have already placed their orders. :wink:

I must differ with you, I love the smooth sound of tubes. Distortion perhaps, but I like the experience.
 

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There are still lots of tube amps sold. Mostly high end stuff, go into any high end audio store and I'm sure they will have a few tube amps. Most of them cost several grand.

Tube amps are supposed to make music sound more natural. They add distortion in a way that no integrated amp can. However, it is all a personal preference if you like them or not.

BTW...tubes are not about nostalgia, it is about producing a different kind of sound than any integrated amp.
 

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timwhit said:
There are still lots of tube amps sold. Mostly high end stuff, go into any high end audio store and I'm sure they will have a few tube amps. Most of them cost several grand.

Tube amps are supposed to make music sound more natural. They add distortion in a way that no integrated amp can. However, it is all a personal preference if you like them or not.

BTW...tubes are not about nostalgia, it is about producing a different kind of sound than any integrated amp.
It's the same issue as vinyl (analog reproduction) and compact disk (digital reproduction). Most people, including myself, like analog's oldy sound quality... however, nothing is more crystal clear than a CD...

Tubes are things of the past. But there are physics behind their role in sound amplification. I think this mobo is unique even if we don't yet know the margin of quality.
 

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Prof.Wizard said:
Most people, including myself, like analog's oldy sound quality...
"Most" people? I think not. Go into any mainstream music store and try to find any vinyl at all. You'd even be hard pressed to find cassettes.
 

NRG = mc²

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What a gimmick. As if there will be any decent sound quality inside the tower - with all that EMR, the crappy mobo circuit board, the crappy PSU...

The only people who would buy this are the same ones who buy Intel because "they're faster".
 

time

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timwhit said:
They add distortion in a way that no integrated amp can.
Says it all, really.

As for PW's vinyl analogy: Vinyl always sucked, it's just that the cover notes were bigger and better.

I'll grant you that an A to D converter with an indifferent quality low-pass filter also sucked. I personally listened to several different CD players before settling on an 8-times oversampling player that didn't muddy the sound.

But then I freely admit to being an audio freak, although after the lifestyle changes that a family enforces, I'm somewhat more pragmatic. :-?

The irrefutable fact is that 'tube' amps colour sound, although some of the better ones are extremely subtle about this, only impacting if you drive the amp to clip (which is exceedingly stupid). On the other hand, old or cheap transistor amps introduce an annoyingly harsh type of distortion, and when overdriven they are intolerable (and will most likely destroy your speakers).

But a lot of this is ancient history. Class B amplifiers based on bipolar transistors are highly efficient and bloody awful when it comes to distortion. I'm well out of the loop, so I don't know if they're still used in PA work, or superceded by Class D. Maybe Stereodude would know?

Any reasonable amplifier will use Class A-B, but great sins were committed in the past in the name of marketing. In particular, THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) figures were widely quoted as the be all and end all, with numbers as low as 0.001% or better all too common.

Compare this with up to 10% for speaker drivers. :roll:

The trick is that it's easy to achieve low THD with liberal application of negative feedback, but that can either ignore other faults, or introduce a bunch of its own. Intermodulation distortion springs to mind as a metric that's hard to quantify but may be just as significant as THD.

Some years ago now, people started to use MOSFET (Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transistor) as an alternative to bipolar transistor designs. Although not as efficient, they have headroom, that is they clip less sharply than conventional bipolar transistors, although they're still not as forgiving as valves.

It's called having your cake and eating it too. Better clipping behaviour without the coloration of most tube designs. I'd expect most HiFi nuts to go MOSFET, although a good bipolar design is just as good for most purposes.

Only hard cases would lay out their own money for a tube solution, and I haven't even begun to itemize the other drawbacks.
 

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James said:
"Most" people? I think not. Go into any mainstream music store and try to find any vinyl at all. You'd even be hard pressed to find cassettes.
Are you joking, James? All professional DJs in night clubs use vinyl. When was the last time you went to one?
 

Prof.Wizard

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time said:
As for PW's vinyl analogy: Vinyl always sucked, it's just that the cover notes were bigger and better.
Vinyl has a better, more genuine sound. Period.

Hey, I'm a tech boy too, I like CDs and MDs... but vinyl is in a class on its own. Too bad it's too bulky...
 

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time said:
Some years ago now, people started to use MOSFET (Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transistor) as an alternative to bipolar transistor designs. Although not as efficient, they have headroom, that is they clip less sharply than conventional bipolar transistors, although they're still not as forgiving as valves.

i believe owners of krell class a amps might disagree wth you there time!
 

CougTek

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Prof.Wizard said:
Vinyl has a better, more genuine sound. Period.
Well, maybe it was drug and not heat that made you look like that :roll: You know, you actually don't HAVE TO always be wrong you know.

As for DJ and night clubs, please. Do you really believe audio fidelity is important in these places? And AFAIK, they mostly use vinyl to "scratch" (turning the discs with their fingers to produce nasty noise) them rather than for the music that's on the disc itself.
 

NRG = mc²

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Vinyl has a better, more genuine sound

theoretically it does - no frequency of digital sampling (short of infinite) is sufficient to capture the exact waveform of an analog sound. Thats why its supposed to be better. Obviously there are are disadvantages to analog media which have to be balanced against the advantages.
 

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Prof.Wizard said:
James said:
"Most" people? I think not. Go into any mainstream music store and try to find any vinyl at all. You'd even be hard pressed to find cassettes.
Are you joking, James? All professional DJs in night clubs use vinyl. When was the last time you went to one?

I have to agree with this one. A guy I work with is a DJ and he will only spin vinyl, and I don't believe it is for scratching because it destroys those expensive needles they buy. I can’t argue that he spins vinyl because it sounds better, but rather because it may offer more control. There are some who scratch, but I thought they had specific turntables for this.
 

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Handruin said:
Prof.Wizard said:
James said:
"Most" people? I think not. Go into any mainstream music store and try to find any vinyl at all. You'd even be hard pressed to find cassettes.
Are you joking, James? All professional DJs in night clubs use vinyl. When was the last time you went to one?

I have to agree with this one. A guy I work with is a DJ and he will only spin vinyl, and I don't believe it is for scratching because it destroys those expensive needles they buy. I can’t argue that he spins vinyl because it sounds better, but rather because it may offer more control. There are some who scratch, but I thought they had specific turntables for this.

Heh, I also have a friend who DJs professionally. He uses CDs exclusively. He wanted me to advise him on a mass storage solution but I didn't have the time. I suspect he stays digital because of the compact form factor and precision with which you can manage sets.

I'm sure the type of show counts in the desision somewhat. My friend mostly did birthday parties and other gatherings.
 

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NRG = mc² said:
Vinyl has a better, more genuine sound

theoretically it does - no frequency of digital sampling (short of infinite) is sufficient to capture the exact waveform of an analog sound. Thats why its supposed to be better. Obviously there are are disadvantages to analog media which have to be balanced against the advantages.

This is true, and there are many people that can tell the difference between a CD and vinyl. I can't, but they say that CDs sound harsher.

With a truly high end record player and a brand new record it will sound better than any CD, at least more accurate. I doubt there is anyone who could tell the difference between SACD and vinyl though.
 

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CougTek said:
Well, maybe it was drug and not heat that made you look like that :roll: You know, you actually don't HAVE TO always be wrong you know.
When I'm not wrong, I know it.
When I have doubt, I say (warn) it.
When I don't know, I avoid to answer and don't post...
:right: that's me.

Read my posts again. I didn't say about sound fidelity and quality. I said about genuine and nearer to the real thing. Analog reproduction of the sound (the vinyl's "hills and grooves") creates a more authentic sound of the instruments and voice.
As for DJ and night clubs, please. Do you really believe audio fidelity is important in these places? And AFAIK, they mostly use vinyl to "scratch" (turning the discs with their fingers to produce nasty noise) them rather than for the music that's on the disc itself.
Scratches? Mwahahaha... :lol:
C'mon, post like these show your age guys. When was the last time you heard a scratch in a night club?
Hey, what kind of music you think we hear here in the old continent? Rap?! They want vinyl to mix the tracks in a program. Of course with the CDJ mixing devices (mainly by Pioneer) you can mix and scratch from a CD too but professionals don't...

Fact 1: Professionals don't buy from music shops like you and me. They have their own distribution canals with better prices and the latest hits (or about to be hits) and it's almost always vinyl.
Fact 2: Singles (ie. EPs) come out in 2-track sideA-sideB vinyl disks. Most white labels, new releases, experimental tracks (beyond demo tapes) get first and foremost in vinyl.
Fact 3: The whole thing (analog vs. digital) of sound reproduction was once explained to me by a musician. Analog sound has (almost) unlimited bandwidth. Digital not.
 

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Handruin said:
I have to agree with this one. A guy I work with is a DJ and he will only spin vinyl, and I don't believe it is for scratching because it destroys those expensive needles they buy. I can’t argue that he spins vinyl because it sounds better, but rather because it may offer more control. There are some who scratch, but I thought they had specific turntables for this.
Right Handruin. I can confirm this too. All DJs I know (and I know a well number) use vinyl.
And don't fall into the trap to say it's because of the price. Actually, CDs cost less than vinyl now! :eek:
 

Prof.Wizard

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Cliptin said:
I'm sure the type of show counts in the desision somewhat. My friend mostly did birthday parties and other gatherings.
Right on that too.

It's funny but there IS a coincidence here. Private DJs who work for "happenings" prefer CDs for their compactness. Probably your friend is more interested to the crystal clear characteristics of the CD sound and the size of his bag than the audio authenticity and having the latest hits by a well-known electronic music composer...
 

NRG = mc²

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Scratching is so 80's...

No seriously, some stuff is only available in vinyl, like most of the stuff from Moving shadow productions.

In fact, quite a large proportion of my MP3's have originated from vinyl - I transferred them using an old Lenco turntable and my old MX300 soundcard. They all sound fine to me, except one of them which was a little dirty and used after I did the ripping. You just have to take care of the LPs.
 

Prof.Wizard

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NRG = mc² said:
In fact, quite a large proportion of my MP3's have originated from vinyl - I transferred them using an old Lenco turntable and my old MX300 soundcard. They all sound fine to me, except one of them which was a little dirty and used after I did the ripping. You just have to take care of the LPs.
Sound Blaster Audigy Platinum has some progies to rip, clean, and convert the sound from vinyls... Never used them though.
 

Mercutio

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I'd have no problem telling SACD from vinyl, timwhit. Vinyl would be the scratchy, two-channel only sound while SACD would be the warm, dynamic five-channel.
 

Mercutio

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Depends on the disc, tim. Given the choice of listening to an SACD on a $500 player or a record on a $500 turntable, I sure as hell know which I'd choose.
 

Buck

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I can't believe that I sent Time audio files in WMA format and at a 64Kbps sample rate, after finally getting the clue that he's an audiophile. My apologies mate. If you can find the album with the same songs for better quality, please do.
 

time

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Jake the Dog said:
i believe owners of krell class a amps might disagree wth you there time!
I didn't want to get bogged down with exotica, such as amps that offer Class A operation without using a classic Class A design. Class A is impractical for most purposes.

when did you buy your 8x o/samp cd player time? just wondering if you 'sampled' any of the 1bit 256x players?
IIRC, a decade or so ago. It stopped working a while ago, but I haven't got around to binning it. My point was merely to illustrate that I'm not oblivious to audio quality issues.

Oversampling reduces the necessary sophistication and cost of the following low-pass filter. Like anything digital, manufacturers take it to the nth degree because they can rather than because they need to.
 

time

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NRG = mc² said:
theoretically it does - no frequency of digital sampling (short of infinite) is sufficient to capture the exact waveform of an analog sound.
You need to realize that any audio recording is only an approximation of the real thing. When you look at a photo of someone, do you try to start a conversation?

If you compare a waveform from a phonograph with the equivalent from a CD player, the CD will always provide a more accurate reproduction. This even applies at high frequencies, where the sampling rate is only two to three times, because phonographs simply can't track well at these frequencies. And in any case the good old human ear is incapable of discerning the wave shape at the upper end of most people's hearing.

Prof.Wizard said:
The whole thing (analog vs. digital) of sound reproduction was once explained to me by a musician. Analog sound has (almost) unlimited bandwidth. Digital not.
I didn't think it was possible for someone to be more than 100% wrong, but full marks to Pee Wee for setting the pace. Dynamic range of a vinyl recording is limited to about 60dB, which is better than normal audio cassette by about 10dB, but sure as hell isn't unlimited. For a CD, it's 90dB, which is a comfortable margin over what we are ever likely to experience in reality.

In other words, you have it completely back to front, but there's no such thing as unlimited anyway. Do you have any understanding whatsoever how a phonograph works?

It's also worth pointing out that all pressings have already undergone an A-D and D-A conversion, even if the original master was analogue. The only way you could approach your fantasy would be with an original Edison cylinder.

This guy laments the lack of utilization of CD bandwidth:

http://georgegraham.com/compress.html

As for DJs who use vinyl, their time is limited. Read what this DJ has to say about the "quality" of club sound:

http://www.wired.com/news/mp3/0,1285,47398,00.html
 
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