While browsing Digg, I turned up this crafty little video regarding the question if abortions were illegal, what should the punishment be. Give it a chance, and let me know what you think.
What punishment for illegal abortion...?
- Thread starter Handruin
- Start date
ddrueding
Fixture
I'll stay out of this one, thanks. I've found that people have very strong opinions on this subject and don't change them.
paugie
Storage is cool
my first reaction was,
the video was funny. I mean the people in the video were funny.
But the lack of opinion was sad.
the video was funny. I mean the people in the video were funny.
But the lack of opinion was sad.
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
Only thought that occurred to me during the entire video was how the hell can you feel something should be made illegal, and then not even be able to think of an appropriate punishment for it, as was the case with many of these people? Another disturbing thing was the number of times the word "God" was mentioned. Last I checked we don't live in a theocracy. Laws shouldn't be passed because they're against someone's religion, especially when me and many others don't happen to share their beliefs.
Also, I'm thankful for the recent focus on the economy in the Presidential debates. At least we're finally discussing real issues which affect everyone, not fringe issues like abortion, same sex marriage, or other nonissues which affect under 1% of the population. Honestly, I'm so sick of hearing all the talk on both sides of this nonissue. Just don't get pregnant by accident. Bingo, the abortion issue suddenly vanishes like the nebulous cloud of nothing it really is.
Also, I'm thankful for the recent focus on the economy in the Presidential debates. At least we're finally discussing real issues which affect everyone, not fringe issues like abortion, same sex marriage, or other nonissues which affect under 1% of the population. Honestly, I'm so sick of hearing all the talk on both sides of this nonissue. Just don't get pregnant by accident. Bingo, the abortion issue suddenly vanishes like the nebulous cloud of nothing it really is.
ok, just to clarify; my point of this post was not to assume a position, but rather to extract that those with their opinion on pro-life did so without thinking it through to a level that they probably should have.
This is exactly the point I wanted everyone to get from the video. Not a flamed debate of pro life vs. pro choice, but at least if you make a stance on something this sensitive, have an full understanding, or truly believing in it. I got the impression that some of the people interviewed were just "along for the ride", if you know what I mean?
Yes, those discussions are more important that the actual debate of abortion. As I've said, debating sides isn't the intent of this thread, though I'm sure it will somehow morph into it.
Careful with that statement. That might solve some of the problems, but that doesn't solve the problem with rape and females who feel less inclined to keep that child. Maybe you can roll rape into "accident" in a different sense, but it still leaves a much greater problem than a couple who create a child unintentionally when rape is not involved.
ddrueding
Fixture
Handruin, I appreciate your intention and happen to share the opinion of you, jtr, and the video. But the more fundamental point is that these people who have not thought through the topic still hold their views, and will continue to regardless of any argument or persuasion. I had a female Mormon friend in high school. She got pregnant twice by the same asshole in consecutive years. She carried both and had them adopted by members of the church. I tried to convince her that birth control was a much lesser sin than pre-marital sex, but apparently she felt god was keeping score.
Bottom line: This is someone who had the best opportunity to understand the entire situation from both sides, and her opinion did not change.
I hold the opinion I do because I am anti-restriction, not because of any moral judgment. When pressed, I say that I am pro-choice up to one year after pregnancy, in case you change your mind.
Bottom line: This is someone who had the best opportunity to understand the entire situation from both sides, and her opinion did not change.
I hold the opinion I do because I am anti-restriction, not because of any moral judgment. When pressed, I say that I am pro-choice up to one year after pregnancy, in case you change your mind.
I understand that they will hold their views regardless of any amount of persuasion from anyone. Even in your situation, how is it that you know for absolute certainty that birth control was much less of a sin than pre-marital sex? Is that written some where? Is that just your perceived value? When involving god, the abortion debate can never be won because neither side has absolute proof.
Your female friend didn't have the best opportunity because she was constraint by the nature of her religion. Her need for sex was greater than her commitment to her religion and her guilt surpassed her need to reason in the future. She was willing to bend the rules on some things but not others.
My thread wasn't to get you or anyone to give their choice on the matter (it's fine if you do though). I just found it very interesting that those who held a strong view haven't thought what should happen to someone who illegally choices to end their pregnancy.
Your female friend didn't have the best opportunity because she was constraint by the nature of her religion. Her need for sex was greater than her commitment to her religion and her guilt surpassed her need to reason in the future. She was willing to bend the rules on some things but not others.
My thread wasn't to get you or anyone to give their choice on the matter (it's fine if you do though). I just found it very interesting that those who held a strong view haven't thought what should happen to someone who illegally choices to end their pregnancy.
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
Personally my views are that one shouldn't get pregnant by accident. In the absence of all else abstinence is a 100% effective even if less than attractive proposition. Getting a vasectomy isn't a bad idea either if you don't see children in your future, but still don't want to practice abstinence. IMHO not experiencing the fleeting joy of sex is way better than dealing with a child you don't want, or catching venereal diseases or AIDS. In cases of rape or incest, however, it's certainly really pigheaded to force someone to have a child they neither wanted nor planned. That's where the anti-abortion activists really rub me the wrong way.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
jtr, do you have any idea how idiotic it is to tell people not to have sex?
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
Well, what else would you suggest? We've told people about condoms, birth control pills, probably a hundred other means of avoiding pregnancy, yet we still have large numbers of unwanted births. None of those other methods really get to the heart of the matter. For that matter, abortion is just a bandaid to fix a larger problem we don't want to. You make it sound as if people are dogs in the street, and can't make a conscious decision not to act on their hormones. I honestly don't remember anyone in my social clique in high school having sex, yet nowadays 12-year olds are giving each other blow jobs on the school bus. I didn't even know what a blow job was at that age. I had better things to do, like maybe enjoying my childhood. People rise or fall to the level expected of them. Nowadays expectations are horribly low in all areas, including this one. It doesn't help that the media glamorizes sex, or half of Hollywood has babies out of wedlock.
In much the same way that we're selling birth control pills, or pills to increase sex drive, why can't we market pills to decrease it? That sort of makes the whole abstinence thing a whole lot easier. Just pop a pill, the desire to get laid goes away.
People suffer from this thing called being human. It's not just with sex drive, it's with everything. You and I have the ability to eat health, but I often times cannot control my cravings. You might find it easy, and I do not.
I'm not disagreeing that we have the means such as birth control, condoms, etc or that we still have a large number of unwanted births. In a sense, people are just dogs in the street...having the state of mind to control one's urge while in the moment is like placing a bowl of rice in front of a starving child.
I know you're older than I am, but even when I was in high school things were the same (or close to) how they are now. I knew girls getting pregnant at 15/16 years of age. It wasn't many, but it only takes one or two to get the point. I remember the classes they would give in school showing us videos girls around 14 having children to warn us, but it made no difference.
Suggesting there should be a pill to lower the sex drive is fine, but no company would produce it. I'd bet only a handful of the population would willingly want such a pill except in rare cases (though it might be useful for convicted sex offenders and child molesters). The feeling people get around a sex drive is probably similar to what people pay for in illegal drugs. Since the feeling is natural and not a crime, very few would willingly want to stop it.
I'm not disagreeing that we have the means such as birth control, condoms, etc or that we still have a large number of unwanted births. In a sense, people are just dogs in the street...having the state of mind to control one's urge while in the moment is like placing a bowl of rice in front of a starving child.
I know you're older than I am, but even when I was in high school things were the same (or close to) how they are now. I knew girls getting pregnant at 15/16 years of age. It wasn't many, but it only takes one or two to get the point. I remember the classes they would give in school showing us videos girls around 14 having children to warn us, but it made no difference.
Suggesting there should be a pill to lower the sex drive is fine, but no company would produce it. I'd bet only a handful of the population would willingly want such a pill except in rare cases (though it might be useful for convicted sex offenders and child molesters). The feeling people get around a sex drive is probably similar to what people pay for in illegal drugs. Since the feeling is natural and not a crime, very few would willingly want to stop it.
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
And I give into my cravings for food more often as I should also. However, there's a huge difference between that and what we're talking about here. If I feel like having a bag of Doritos I can go out and buy it by myself. In fact, I had a bag last night, and some cookies also. Eating one bag doesn't have dire, life long repercussions like VD, AIDS, or unwanted children from one night of sex might. Furthermore, unlike buying Doritos, acting on any sexual desire I might have requires more than myself. I have to actively go out and find someone willing to do it with me (in my case that would probably mean paying for it). Logistically it's a lot harder to get into an unwanted pregnancy situation than an eating bad things situation. That's my point. As such, it should be a lot easier to exert self control, or to channel your urges in ways which don't produce dire consequences (i.e. find porn on the Internet and masturbate, or use a blow-up doll, or any other method not requiring another person). This is way different than food cravings which are only satisfied by eating the food you crave. So if some, I'll even argue most if the will was there, people would have the ability to control something as elemental as food cravings, you and Merc are saying they can't channel their sexual urges into something more harmless. Sorry, I don't buy it. Like I said, none of my friends in HS were sexually active, or at least none broadcast about it (which I'm sure they would have if they were). In fact, I don't recall any pregnancies in the entire school. I'm sure there were some people sexually active. I'd be naive to think otherwise. For whatever reason, they had the ability to avoid a pregnancy. Why is that so hard to do nowadays? Humans haven't physically changed in only 30 years.
I'll also add that whatever lack of discipline existed on my part, the whole AIDS epidemic scared the living shit out me (not in high school as it didn't exist then, but in my mid 20s). To someone used to being in some modicum of decent physical condition, just the thought of seeing my body go in such a horrible fashion negates the little pleasure a sexual encounter might give me. And seeing my dad hooked up to all those machines before he died scared me into being a lot more disciplined about exercise, and what I eat. I still eat junk, but a lot less than I used to. Forget the teen pregnancy videos. Start showing six graders movies of people with full blown AIDS, crabs, syphilis, plus a bunch of other things. Take them to hospitals to see these things first hand. Repeat these things periodically through high school. My guess is 90% of them don't screw until they're married.
Perhaps, but it would be nice to have that option along with the others.
Lets see, if I can be creative with the punishments.
Illegal Abortion == Forced female circumcision
Illegal abortion == 18 years of house arrest
Illegal abortion == A congressional Medal of Honor
The possibilities are endless
Illegal Abortion == Forced female circumcision
Illegal abortion == 18 years of house arrest
Illegal abortion == A congressional Medal of Honor
The possibilities are endless
sechs
Storage? I am Storage!
So here's my theory on this:
If you're against a legal procedure on some moral ground, then having done it should be punishment enough for the person. You really want to go after the person performing the procedure with jail time or some such.
If you support choice, then there's nothing illegal and, therefore, nothing to punish.
If you're against a legal procedure on some moral ground, then having done it should be punishment enough for the person. You really want to go after the person performing the procedure with jail time or some such.
If you support choice, then there's nothing illegal and, therefore, nothing to punish.
sechs
Storage? I am Storage!
One can better appreciate such brain-dead decisions by realising that by using birth control *and* having pre-marital sex, one is committing two sins, rather than just one.
Why anger god twice when you could do it just once.... repeatedly.
ddrueding
Fixture
I was trying to sell her on the buy one/get one free mentality. That what her religion really wanted was big happy families, not single moms who couldn't support their kids. She disagreed, saying that every child should be born.
No wonder we're going to lose this...they'll just out number us.