Will Ford make it past this year?

CougTek

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I've watched a TV report on the state of the big three car manufacturers in North America. Their situation is trully ugly. Two years ago, many thought Mitsubishi motors wouldn't survive, but now it looks like Ford will need nothing short of a miracle in order to avoid closing doors by this time, next year. GM isn't doing well, but at least there seems to be possibilities in their future. I see none for Ford.

According to the TV report, social benefits cost GM, Ford and probably Chrysler too, around 1300$ per sold vehicles. Those benefits only cost asiatic car makers around 300$ per sale. Ford has more than a million new unsold vehicles and they have to rent parkings to store them. Ford lost 13 billion last year and they had to put their plants, their administration buildings and even their logo at stake in order to get funding to continue their operations. Otherwise, their safes are empty.

With Ford's current vehicle lineup, it's obvious they'll post another huge deficit this year. But they have nothing more to put in warranty to get additional financing. And since Toyota's plants are mostly in Conservative states while Ford's plants are mainly in pro-Democrate states, don't count on Bush to re-route money from his beloved war against Terrorism to help Fix-Or-Repair-Daily.

Ford's toasted after 2007 IMO. Tens of thousands jobs will be lost both because of the failure of its leaders to match the efficiency of asiatic car makers and because of the voracity of the ass-grabbing union cry babies.

It's too late for Ford, but in the hypothesis that GM and Chrysler could improve the efficiency of their plants and focus more on vehicles that customers want (small, safe and fuel-efficient cars), they could get out of the pit. The US government should pressure Japan, Corea and China to open their market to US cars. The way I see it, the battle is only fought in North America because on the other side of the Pacific, foreign cars aren't welcome. Unfortunately, I believe that if the US assministration interfeers, they'll simply try to tax japaneese and corean to make them less desirable to US customers. That would (will) be stupid because it won't force the remaining big two to get their head out of their ass to improve their methods and become more competitive by themselves. It will only delay the crisis by a few years.

But no mather how good GM's and Chrysler's future cars are, they'll never be able to compete against the car makers of the rising sun if they don't stop giving unreasonable benefits to their employees. I heard that GM has two and a half retired employee to sustain (with full med insurance) for each active employee. That's insane. I mean, you have thirty years of active life to make your pot and then retire. If you're too stupid to save a few hundred thousands in thirty years of work at 25$/hour, then you deserve to spend your old days like a poor bastard. Any fat ass employee that doesn't agree with this either lives in a bubble when time stopped in the 80's or doesn't realize that it doesn't work that way in any other segment of the industry.
 

mubs

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Coug, many of your points are well taken. On the subject of retirement/medical benefits for ex-employees, the big three aren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. The roots of this problem go back to the '50s, when the economy boomed at a terrific pace and there was a severe labor shortage. Companies had to offer these kinds of incentives to attract enough labor to grow. Even tech companies like IBM and HP, airlines, and even AT&T had to do this. How long this practice continued, I don't know, but by the early '90s, many companies had reneged on their commitments as a result of bankruptcy (the question arises, what caused what between the bankruptcy and the obligations to retirees). Companies that employed huge workforces (like the auto makers) are still seeing the fall out today.

The prognosis certainly doesn't look good.
 

Handruin

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How much of an impact does Ford have in your area? What I mean is, are they popular in your area and are there many jobs related to Ford near you?

I bet they'll figure something out. I also agree with some of your points, but I don't think ford will completely collapse. I've personally never purchased a Ford and have no intentions of ever doing so because I've never liked their products. However I know a lot of people who are loyal (for whatever reason I don't know) and will continue to buy fords. I'm sure we'll see a huge change at some point, but I don't see them folding completely.
 

e_dawg

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Ford will be fine. Everybody thought GM was toast, but it has survived and is poised to do some good things with the improvement in culture from Bob Lutz and Rick Wagoner (who appears to have done a thankless job in negotiating the political minefields and turning around a losing operation at the same time). The new Saturn lineup shows what can be done even with a lot of baggage holding you back.

They just need to get their mojo back, and in my opinion, it starts with good looking cars the same way the Taurus captured our hearts back in the early to mid 80's. Their current lineup is rather mediocre in terms of design and style. Where are cars like the Pontiac Solstice, or even the entire Saturn lineup? GM is, in limited amounts, bringing sexy back.
 

Tannin

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If the US wants to sell cars elsewhere in the world, there is a hell of a credibility gap to deal with. Most people in most parts of the world think that American-made cars are shoddy, flimsy, unreliable, ugly, overweight, and 5 to 10 years behind in engineering and technology. Sort of like Korean cars, but at least Korean cars are very cheap, have a great warranty, and have improved a lot in the last few years.

(This is me reporting public opinion, not saying what I think myself, remember.)

Actually, I don't think the stereotype view is correct any longer. it certainly was the case around 1970 and 1980, but the US majors have come a long, long way since then. I can't speak about Ford or Chrysler, but I have owned recent-model GM cars, and am familiar with other models that I haven't owned for myself. My satisfaction rating: very, very good. I'd buy another Holden (Aussie-speak for GM) for sure, as my recent experience with their products has been excellent.

In fact, I'm driving a Subaru, and will probably replace it with another one the same when the time comes. That's not price (Subarus are in fact a bit on the dear side), it's not build quality (my GM cars were truly excellent), it's not reliability (both have been near-perfect), it's not styling (GM does it better), it's not after-sales service (GM does that better too), and it's certainly not detail design and attention to the little things (GM is brilliant at this, Subaru only fair). It's simply that GM don't make a car that is remotely competitive with the Forester: there is no GM model that handles like a car on the bitumen, like a truck on the rough stuff, is roomy, economical, and very safe. It's a particular exact niche that fits my needs perfectly and only one car on the market fills that precise niche. (Honda and Toyota have wannabee competitors, but neither one cuts it.)

But I often wish that Subaru would hire the GM engineering team to do the final detail design work on wind and road noise, headlights, placement of switches and dials, driving position, tyre choice, and similar small things that, in concert, add up to the total ownership experience. It's probably a matter of money: I guess GM sell enough of each model to spend maybe 4 times as much on this attention to detail, where Subaru have to put most of their design budget into the raw fundamentals of suspension, body, and power train (all of which they do superbly).

Anyway, back to the topic: my point is that (at least in the case of GM) they are making good cars, well and truly good enough to compete with anyone, but most people don't realise this and just assume that they are the same old crap the US makers served up in the 1980s. I don't know what they can do to turn public opinion around. Here in Oz, they sell enough cars that pretty much everyone had ridden in a few of them, knows some happy owners, and word-of-mouth can do its stuff. Probably the same in Europe. But in Asia? They need to sell a lot of cars so that people can find out for themselves that they are the real deal and buy more of them, but to get people to buy thoser cars they first need to sell a lot of cars so that people can see ......... Nasty loop they have got themselves into there.

To make matters much worse, the cars that American makers do manage to sell outside their traditional markets are, naturally, the sort of car that the Asian makers don't do, or at least don't do well. Top-spec V8 Jeeps with electric everything, huge limos, Chevvy Suburbans. The more of these they sell, the more they reinforce the popular belief that American cars are overweight low-tech fuel-hogs with bad road manners and horrible styling.

It's a very nasty situation. I don't see an answer. Maybe Ford should sell out to Toyota. But then, why would a Toyota or a Honda spend good money buying Ford when they are doing just fine as they are?
 

Stereodude

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Well... For what it's worth GM/Buick is the #1 selling "brand" in China.

GM is in better shape than Ford primarily because their overseas operations are successful.
 

Tannin

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Is that right? Wow! Who's a thunk it? I guess I didn't think of China when I said "Asia", sort of forgot that China ain't all about ricefields and funny pajamas these days. Bit of a senior moment there.
 

Bozo

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We have some eqiupment at work made in Germany. Some of the German engineers that were here wanted to buy American cars and have them shipped to Germany. They think the German cars are junk. Go figure.
One thing that I always like to point out to the Pro German/Japan/Korean fans, is that the dealers repair shops are always busy. The mechanics are not sitting around playing cards. And, it usually take 7-10 days to get an appointment to have your car repaired at said dealerships.
There is a lot of marketing spin on the percieved 'quality' of any car.

Some of you might remember, but about 30 years ago the US goverment bailed out Chyrsler.

Bozo :joker:
 

Clocker

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I think Ford will be fine. Got myself some shares at just under $8. Ford is just late doing what GM has been doing for the past few years. As of today, DCX will probably be getting on the boat too.

I'm glad to see GM leading the turnaround of the domestics. :) We have a lot of great product now and more in the pipe. Next time you're in the market, just give them a look if you have been reluctant past. Maybe you will find something, mabe not. But, I will tell you we have come a long way in improving our executions. As stated by Bozo, quality gaps are 99.9% just customer perception and opinions based on the past at this point. Especially with more recently introduced products from all the manufacturers.
 

Handruin

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She certainly is a nice looking lady. I'm glad they were tasteful pictures and not done in a way to exploiting her bosom.
 

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We have some eqiupment at work made in Germany. Some of the German engineers that were here wanted to buy American cars and have them shipped to Germany. They think the German cars are junk. Go figure.
One thing that I always like to point out to the Pro German/Japan/Korean fans, is that the dealers repair shops are always busy. The mechanics are not sitting around playing cards. And, it usually take 7-10 days to get an appointment to have your car repaired at said dealerships.
There is a lot of marketing spin on the percieved 'quality' of any car.

Some of you might remember, but about 30 years ago the US goverment bailed out Chyrsler.

Bozo :joker:
I think the reason to why most repair shops are busy is that a car mechanic is rather expensive, so they only hire as many as they need.

It would be interesting though to see statistics on how many cars there are per mechanic, and the relation between service/repairs on European/American brands vs Japanese.
 

Clocker

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Ford is in a bit of a bind though.

They have put everything up for collateral to get a big loan. The F-150, the Blue Oval, all of their Ford stuff is up as collateral to get their loan. With their new CEO though (Mulally, who is an outsider-not a Ford family member-an executive vice president from Boeing), I'm sure the hard decisions will be made to get the blue oval back in the black.
 

Bozo

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I think the reason to why most repair shops are busy is that a car mechanic is rather expensive, so they only hire as many as they need.

It would be interesting though to see statistics on how many cars there are per mechanic, and the relation between service/repairs on European/American brands vs Japanese.
The Toyota dealer near me just built a truck/suv building. They hired 8 more mechanics. Even considering the amount of vehicles they sell and their percieved quality, the mechanics in the car building should have been able to handle the load.

I'm not knocking Toyota. I just believe there is a lot of marketing spin on quality. 10 years ago everything was Honda-Honda-Honda. Before that is was Mercedes.
What's hurting US car compaanies??? This kind of bullsh*t:
The brake pedal in a Jeep goes all the way to the floor and leaves a dent in the carpet before the vehicle will stop. Dealerships fix: "They all do that."
An extended warenty says wheel bearings are covered. Because they are listed in the parts book as 'hub assemblies', the customer pays.
The motor in a Ford sounds like marbles in a 3 pound coffee can be dragged behind the vehicle. Ford "there is no authorized repair"
The blower motor for a Chevy is the same part number as the one for a Cadilac. But the Cadilac is priced 3 times higher.
Dealers on the east coast and midwest using parts price books from California. Why? The California prices are almost double that of the east coast.
The service manager says he and the mechanic took your vehicle for a drive and said they could not find anything wrong. When you check the odometer you see that it has not moved, not even a tenth. They just moved the vehicle to another parking spot.
Then there is the Toyota service department: A freind bough a used Toyota pickup. He had over 200,000 miles on it when the motor started doing weird things. He took it to Toyota to have it diagnosed but not repaired. Toyota called him and said the head gasket was blown and it would be covered under warrenty. Seems there was a recall for these head gaskets and it was never done on his (second hand) truck. And, they gave him a loaner car while it was in the shop.
Guess where I will be shopping for my next vehicle????

Bozo :joker:
 

Chewy509

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Bozo, I think we all have stories.

I personally drive a Suzuki Vitara (known as a Sidekick in the US). Having problems with 4WD mode, and took it to a Suzuki dealer/service center. They reported nothing wrong with the vehicle after having the vehicle for 4 days. I even have video footage of the problem, which I showed them, and yet they said there was no problem! The internal fan control has also gone, and just need a replacement control box, quoted $170 for what is basically a box with 5 resisters in it, NOT including installation. I told them where to go...

Asked around on the 'net, and took it to a local Suzuki 4WD specialist (SuziSport). Found that the front hubs had worn and was an easy replacement. (Busted locking spring in the right hub, which is turn caused the left hub to seize/wear out). And was advised it was a common problem, especially when the vehicle does moderate offroad work and gets to around the 10yr old mark. (The hubs according to the service manual should be inspected every 20,000 km or 12months anyway). Also asked about the internal fan control, the control box was $25 + $50 fitting.

Why didn't the dealer/service center pick up on worn front hubs? Or had the knowledge of what was described as a known and common issue? And as for the price for the fan control, that was a little expected.

I know here is Oz, there is a perceived issue with US built cars (gas guzzlers), as Tannin mentions. GM/Ford are known as the average Joe's car. Japanese cars however are known as reliable vehicles, and hence Toyota, Honda and Mitsubishi all have an extremely strong presence here. Suzuki falls into the cheaper car market, and admittedly the build quality isn't up to par with Honda/Toyota/Mitsubishi, but the Suzuki vehicle is a cheaper vehicle. Korean cars all have a cheap/nasty stigma about them, even though the cars are not as bad as many make out.

But will Ford, GM and the rest be around in 5-10 years. I'm pretty sure they will be... (Unless there is an Enron type disaster lurking underneath).
 

LiamC

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My take: Ugly cars don’t sell.

The problem: What is ugly?

Caveat: Bear with me. Nothing is absolute. This is my take on one aspect. Rather loosely structured I’m afraid.

In this country, ugly cars don’t sell. This is not an absolute, but true enough. The exception is Toyota. Toyota’s sell because they are Toyota’s, despite borderline ugliness.

Axiom: "World" car designs don’t work. I believe that the market tastes are too region specific, unless you go for bland. The Japanese are good at bland. US designers are not. However, when a company gets into trouble, some go a little overboard in the style stakes to "stand-out". This is rarely a winner. Hello Ford (see below).

The Taurus is ugly (in Australian tastes). It didn’t sell. It didn’t sell in Europe either. I understand that it was successful in the U.S. A US car for US tastes then. I'm not baggin it or US tastes. They are just different to mine.

The Avalon (Aus specific) was an early nineties US Camry where the tooling was exported to Aus. It tanked too. It was/is ugly.

Successful cars in Aus tend to be Euro influenced. Honda sell two Accords in this country. The one that they sell in Europe and the one that they sell in the US. By any measure, the Honda Accord (US) has bags of "fruit" and is great value. Guess which one sells in volume? If you guessed the US Accord, you guessed wrong. The Accord Euro (it’s nameplate) out sells it three or four to one.

The Commodore/Monaro is a Euro GM design adapted for local sale. We exported it to the US. Guess what, the US didn’t like the styling, thought it was too bland/boring/feminine. There is a marketing/positioning lesson in there. The US should do US cars for US tastes, but don’t sacrifice the design on the alter of the "world car" and the "economies of scale", because it won’t sell, so you won’t get the economy. Be big in your market.

Prediction:
The Ford Mondeo sold here (not too successfully) in the late nineties. New Edge again. Just too weird. Ford are thinking of bringing the new European Mondeo (revealed next month?) To Aus.

Memo to Ford Australia #1—do it, it will be a hit. Why? It’s a beautiful car (in a conservative way). The Aus market is taking to the medium sector whilst abandoning the large.

Memo to Ford Australia #2. Don’t try what you have before and Holden tried with the (Opel/Vauxhall) Vectra. You can’t charge a premium. The Mazda 6/Honda Accord Euro/Subaru Liberty (Legacy in the rest of the world) will eat you alive. You have to be price competitive.

Back to Ford.
Jack Telnack/J Mays New Edge design tried to push the envelope. Didn’t Fords sales begin to slide with its introduction (outside of the US)? I’m not saying that it was wrong, more a case of too much too soon. Have a look at current Mercedes Benz’s, there’s a lot of the "New Edge" in it, but it is 10 years later, Ford has exposed the market too it (and paid the price) and the MB version is a little toned down.

BMW philosophy (pre Chris Bangle) is to not be too radical in one step. Evolution not revolution. I think it is not too bad a philosophy. In fact, given the Ford/GM et al, have faster/quicker model cycles, greater change can be achieved without being "radical"—though this would require long term corporate vision and commitment.

Back to the world car concept.
It doesn’t work except in bland—because tastes are so varied. Corolla/Camry sell but no one would accuse them of being avant-gardé style leaders. Leave that to Alfa (Brera—how gorgeous is that car. If my numbers come up tonight, I’ll be down at the Alfa dealer tomorrow). But guess what, Alfa’s sell in puny numbers compared to Corolla/Camry. Ya makes your choice.

Complicating factor: The oil shock.
Part of the rise of Toyota is that they have been strong in the area that people turn to when the price of "gas" (concession to our North American friends :) Note: gas comes out of your arse when you fart or you use it to cook with :D ) gets out of hand. Large-ish cars with enough oomph and great economy. Fours aren’t noted for smoothness, but the Japanese have managed to make acceptable compromises in all areas, vibration, power, consumption, torque compared to just about anyone. The US and Euro engines might be better in one area, but they are usually dismal in the others. Did I mention bland in this post? Balance.

Wrap up:
A lot of people buy for reasons other than style. Generalisations are bad. But I see a pattern. This does not mean that it exists. :)
 

Clocker

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Chewy509 said:
But will Ford, GM and the rest be around in 5-10 years. I'm pretty sure they will be... (Unless there is an Enron type disaster lurking underneath).

GM's pension fund is overfunded by $17 Billion so I don't think you'll see any Enron type disasters there.
 

LunarMist

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Ford will probably sell out to the Chinese or some European company with money and be subsidized by the US government to make cars that nobody wants.
 

Handruin

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Successful cars in Aus tend to be Euro influenced. Honda sell two Accords in this country. The one that they sell in Europe and the one that they sell in the US. By any measure, the Honda Accord (US) has bags of "fruit" and is great value. Guess which one sells in volume? If you guessed the US Accord, you guessed wrong. The Accord Euro (it’s nameplate) out sells it three or four to one.

Interesting note here; Honda also sells the European version of the accord in the US. It is known as the Acura TSX. I knew that before buying it and I liked the exterior better than the US accord.
 

LiamC

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Oh yeah, back to ugly. Ford Interceptor. WTF were they thinking when they put that grille on it? Yeah I know it comes from one of your trucks, but seriously, why? They were on track for a good design (even if they stole it off of the Chrysler 300C) and then they had to get the crayons outs.

Make the people responsible for that car watch the Simpsons episode where Homer designs a car over and over, until they can repeat the whole episode verbatim, and they understand the comment it is making... If they can't do that, then get them to watch The Untouchables with the baseball bat scene...

Oh yeah, the reason for the rant is that is that I consider it a one-dimensional design—it's shallower than its glass house. It's only going to appeal to a very narrow segment. What Ford needs is mass appeal
 

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:lol: the Ford Interceptor looks like a crossing between an old Skoda (the front) and some old american car.

The biggest problem with american cars are that they stopped the development around 1970, since then they have only been swapping body work to get new models. :mrgrn:
 

Clocker

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They were on track for a good design (even if they stole it off of the Chrysler 300C)

Chrysler stole the 300C styling from Bentley. That's why all the homies love them (at least around here). It's a fer-schizzle gangsta rappers car. I was looking at King magazine (like Maxim for African American males) and every other page had a tricked out 300C on it. And the women in there....all I can say is WOW. They DO have big butts just like Sir-Mix-a-Lot says. If you really want to get expand your horizons, get yourself a copy of King and check it out.

Funny thing is, my mom also drives one. :)
 

Pradeep

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One thing when comparing retirement costs is the age of the workforce. GM/Ford/Chrysler have tens/hundreds of thousands of retirees, who are paid benefits.

IIRC the first Toyota workers are just now reaching retirement age. So the number of people they pay benefits to is dramatically less, and will increase in the coming years.

My wife's uncle works for Kodak, so he can get Ford under X-plan pricing. He recently bought an 07 Focus, shockingly underfeatured, but the price was bargain basement. Still can't figure out why he didn't go for a Hyundai, but oh well.

Looks like they just can't kill the Taurus name, now it's going on as the nameplate for the Ford 500 (wonder how the market will react to paying $25,000 for a Taurus when they were previously paying closer to $15K).

The domestic manufacturers have really given sweet F.A. attention to the car segment. Sure they have new sheet metal/designs, but many of the powertrains are old and outdated. 4 speed auto's, engines from 10 years ago etc.

There is hope, the new Pontiac G8 looks like it should be a lot of fun. V8 with 6 speed auto or manual, 4 door sedan.
 

Handruin

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Is the ford 500 AWD? I don't remember the Taurus offering that. Not to say that is worth a $10K price hike...but at least a few thousand.
 

Pradeep

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The 500 has AWD as an option (I believe it's the same system Volvo uses). Option cost is about $1700 list price, probably closer to $1000 retail. The 500 is a much bigger car than the Taurus is. At least in 2008 it will have a 260HP 3.5L V6, instead of the dog 200HP engine it currently has. There will also be a Taurus-X, aka renamed/restyled Freestyle, with same engine and six speed auto tranny.
 

Stereodude

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One thing when comparing retirement costs is the age of the workforce. GM/Ford/Chrysler have tens/hundreds of thousands of retirees, who are paid benefits.

IIRC the first Toyota workers are just now reaching retirement age. So the number of people they pay benefits to is dramatically less, and will increase in the coming years.
Yes, but you can bet that Toyota didn't think short term like the big 3 and figured they'd spend the money now and worry about saving for their employees pensions later. They probably put the money into their retirement "fund" back 30 years ago like the big 3 should have been doing.
 

Corvair

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CougTek said:
>> Will Ford make it past this year?

Mercedes may end up dumping the Chrysler unit off as an independent company -- just like they were before the merger....

http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=h...jiHTQ2AIqqVQ23iqpQ22TcHTcYiQ3CITcvccqcpWHTQ2A




But, General Motors just may end up gobbling Chrysler up...

http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/16/news/companies/chrysler_gm/index.htm?cnn=yes





...Two years ago, many thought Mitsubishi motors wouldn't survive,...
If memory serves, Mitsi were doing fine until one of their top executives got popped for corruption. Then a week later a relatively small number of their commercial trucks models (in Japan only) began losing axles causing huge accidents -- this was over a short period of time of a few months. Mitsi Motors began to spiral downwards.

Nissan went through tough times about 10 years ago. Obviously, they recovered.

Isuzu got financial help from GM once. Mazda got financial help from Ford once. Hyundai got financial help from Mitsubishi once.
 

LunarMist

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I had a Montenegro last time - some unknown kind of Mercury (Ford???). Not too bad, really.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Coug:

I have to take issue with a couple of your statements:

According to the TV report, social benefits cost GM, Ford and probably Chrysler too, around 1300$ per sold vehicles. Those benefits only cost asiatic car makers around 300$ per sale.

But no mather how good GM's and Chrysler's future cars are, they'll never be able to compete against the car makers of the rising sun if they don't stop giving unreasonable benefits to their employees. I heard that GM has two and a half retired employee to sustain (with full med insurance) for each active employee. That's insane. I mean, you have thirty years of active life to make your pot and then retire. If you're too stupid to save a few hundred thousands in thirty years of work at 25$/hour, then you deserve to spend your old days like a poor bastard.

What you are refering to here are pensions. Ford and GM are spending money keeping their fat-ass ex workers in their retirement because the said workers paid for it. That was how they saved their 'few hundred thousands in thirty years of work'!

The simple truth is that life is cheap in China, which is where a lot of these cars are made, and this is why the Asiactic makers spend $300 per worker. Treat the workers like insects, and you sure will be able to beat those compaines who don't! So what will it be? Either Ford fires all of its US workers and moves everything to China, or people start thinking about things a bit more when they buy.

What I want to know is: what happens when all the well paid jobs have been either outsourced to the third world, and the employeers who refused to do so have been destroyed by those who do? Who will be left to buy the expensive cars and nice electronics? Not the poor peasents and prisoners in China, that is for sure. I have first hand experience of Western compaines working in China. The government basically give you a Prison Camp full of worker prisoners and their families who work for food and not getting shot. Now you can't compete against that when you employ pesky US or European workers now can you? There is nothing more efficient than effective slavery....
 

CougTek

Serial computer killer
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What you are refering to here are pensions. Ford and GM are spending money keeping their fat-ass ex workers in their retirement because the said workers paid for it.
Paid for it my ass. In every big company I've been, the employer contributes more than the employee to the retirement fund. In the Big Three case, the employer contributes A LOT more than the already well paid employee.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not for nivelling by the bottom. But when you earn two or three times the average salary for a big part of your active life, you shouldn't need that your employer grabs you by the hand to allow you to have a nice pension. You should be able to do it by yourself.

I know quite a lot of ex-GM employees (I live close to Boisbrand, where the Camaro and Firebird used to be built up to five or six years ago IIRC). I never heard about any of them breaking a sweat back when they were working for GM. From what I heard, working for any of the Big Three isn't a job, it's a pre-retirement occupation. I'm talking about the car assembling plants. I have no idea about the design/engineering staff. And I'm sure these days the administrative staff must be running out of breath.

I'm against slavery-like working conditions, but excessively good conditions are no good either since they often bring a company down. Go ask a few of the 100,000 ex-employees of G/F/C if they are better now than they would have been if they would still have their former job, minus a few excessive benefits.
 

Bozo

Storage? I am Storage!
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Feb 12, 2002
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If you would like to see a perfect example of the grossly overpaid/underworked UAW employee, visit the Corvette plant or the Harley plant and take the tour.
$22.00++ an hour for unskilled labor to install lug nuts.

Bozo :joker:
 

Handruin

Administrator
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Jan 13, 2002
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You know...if they actually torqued them correctly, it's probably worth it. I understand your point, but I've had my brakes screwed because people don't know how to torque the lugs to spec when replacing the wheel.
 

Bozo

Storage? I am Storage!
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On the assembly line, a calibrated machine installs the lug nuts and torgues them. The worker just pushes the machine on to the studs and pulls the trigger. The machine is even hung from cables so the worker doesn't have to pick it up. The machine is also self feeding.

Bozo :joker:
 

e_dawg

Storage Freak
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Jul 19, 2002
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Toronto-ish, Canada
Unions... look what they did to the big 3... I don't even know what to say. I find myself a little disgusted with how they screwed the Big 3 and themselves by being totally unreasonable.
 
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