Wither English?

Tannin

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sechs said:
For better or worse (a quarter of five) is now an acceptable construction in English.

You are totaly, absolutely, incredibly, 100% ... no, make that 110% ... kidding. No possible way on god's green earth. Never. It's not even acceptable American (at least not so far as I know, but I am obviously no expert on the US dialect) but it is absolutely, positively, certainly and without any shadow of a doubt not in any way acceptable English.
 

Tannin

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Lord Mubs, I wouldn't argue that two suppositions in a sentence is a good thing, but it is possible if - and only if - you are aiming to indicate that you are piling one supposition on the other. Normally, of course, you wouldn't do it. I was agreeing with the basic thrust of your point, just saying that there are exceptions to prove the rule.
 

sechs

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Tannin said:
sechs said:
For better or worse (a quarter of five) is now an acceptable construction in English.

You are totaly, absolutely, incredibly, 100% ... no, make that 110% ... kidding. No possible way on god's green earth. Never. It's not even acceptable American (at least not so far as I know, but I am obviously no expert on the US dialect) but it is absolutely, positively, certainly and without any shadow of a doubt not in any way acceptable English.

Baloney. I use it. Most folks in the mid-Atlantic states use this construction. Even those who don't use it understand what it means.

It's also in the dictionary. That makes it true.
 

Tannin

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But it is absolutely, positively not English. No literate English-speaking person from any corner of the globe would ever use that phrase. It is a 100% American-only usage and cannot be described as "English".

Aside from that, it's nonsensical. And ugly. Probably causes acne too.
 

i

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Don't you mean "pieces of eight"?

Arrrr!
 

sechs

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Tannin said:
But it is absolutely, positively not English. No literate English-speaking person from any corner of the globe would ever use that phrase. It is a 100% American-only usage and cannot be described as "English".

I'm literate. I speak English. I live in a corner of the globe. It is therefore English. I declare it to be so, and it is is.

Keep in mind, now, folks, that nothing that Tannin types here can be "English" because he's "Australian." Or something like that.
 

Tannin

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Oh that's crap. I speak English. You, clearly and by self-confession, do not. Any bastardisation of a perfectly good language to the point where you commit atrocities of the "quarter of eight" nature cannot possibly be regarded as "English".

That "quarter of eight" stuff you speak may well be a perfectly usable and practical means of communication if others around you say it too, but no-one could possibly pretend to call it "English". "English" has rules which determine what does and does not qualify as part of the language. "A quarter of eight" is clearly and unambiguously outside those rules.

Hey, there is nothing wrong with making up weird and peculiar bastardisations of an established (and in this case rather beautiful) language. Anyone can do it if he or she wants to, and no-one will stop them.

OK, I find it distasteful, and any impartial judge would find it illogical and directly counter to the normal goal of most languages, i.e., to communicate clearly, but that doesn't mean you have to pay any attention if you don't feel like it. However, claiming that that particular bit of illiterate regional gobledegook is English is unacceptable. Call it "American" if you wish (that seems a fair enough description of it to me), just don't pretend that it is English, 'cause it ain't.

Does this logic then require that the language I use be described as "Australian"? Not really. (Though I don't mind if you wish to term it this.) In the main, Australian English adheres quite closely to the mother tongue - much more closely than the American dialect does - and follows the major conventions. It merely adds a distinctive accent (usually in quite small doses, certainly so in city areas) and a handful of distinctive expressions, but none of them (so far as I am aware) do the sort of raw violence to the tongue that "a quarter of eight" does. Most of the more spectacular ones (such as Tea's examples above) are, in fact, rarely or never used in everyday life. You'll see them in movies from time to time, or hear them used for comic effect, but almost never in daily conversation.

Refreshingly, Australian English is happy to borrow ideas from other regional variants, in particular the New Zealand one and the American varieties. Australian dictionaries, for example, accept both "colour" and the more logical "color"; we say "truck", not "lorry", and so on. Thus far, at least, we do tend to reject the extreme and nonsensical imports though.

(Give it 5 more years and youngsters raised on too much American TV here will probably start saying "a quarter of eight". I'll probably have the time to write and tell you about it in detail, assuming, of course, that they let me have an internet connection in the cell where I'm serving my time for murder of the particular teenager who says it first.)
 

jtr1962

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Tannin, do Aussies use "straight away" instead of "right away", and do they pronounce aluminum as "a-lu-mi-ni-um"? Just curious because those are some of the more charming parts of British English which I use myself on occasion. You should see the looks on people's faces when I say "Can I have some a-lu-mi-ni-um foil?". :mrgrn:
 

mubs

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It's a lost cause, Tannin. America is especially good at corrupting language. It has something to do with always taking the easy way out. (You can probably guess that I was educated elsewhere).
 

Pradeep

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jtr1962 said:
Tannin, do Aussies use "straight away" instead of "right away", and do they pronounce aluminum as "a-lu-mi-ni-um"? Just curious because those are some of the more charming parts of British English which I use myself on occasion. You should see the looks on people's faces when I say "Can I have some a-lu-mi-ni-um foil?". :mrgrn:

This is an argument I have with our Chief Engineer all the time. "But there's only one "i" in aluminum" he says.

I will never accept it, says I.
 

Tannin

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Your Chief Engineer is flat-out wrong, Pradeep. The correct spelling has both of the "l"s. As JTR probably already knows, there are international standards for the names of chemicals (developed for the very good reason that it can be critical to make sure you have the right chemical, next time you are mixing up a chocolate cake or an atom bomb) and according to IUPAC, the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry which is the body resopnsible for chemical names (in the same sort of way that the W3C is responsible for Internet standards and the IEEE for electronic stuff), aluminium is spelled A L U M I N I U M. Most non-English speaking countries apart from America spell it the correct way too, France and Germany, for example.

Naturally, it is pronounced the same way. In all parts of the world except (you guessed it) North America.

American also does an extraordinary number of other things to the language that are equally inexplicable - more than any other local dialect I'm aware of - and quite often nonsensical. The gross over-use of "gotten" (where "got" would do) is always noticable, and (sadly) has begun to infect other countries too (again, this is Hollywood at its worst); abandoning the lovely rippling word "aeroplane" (which was universal even in the USA until about the time of WW2 - i.e., the proper word was the one the justly famous Wright Brothers used) becomes the ugly "airplane" or (worse) just "plane") - a "plane" is something a carpenter uses to smooth wood.

"Straight away" is the correct usage, in Australia as elsewhere, but mostly only used by older people now. We have become infected with the American usage. Hell, I probably use "right away" myself two times out of three (must try to remember not to).

(And if it comes to that, the way I just used "hell" seems more like an American construction than an Australian or any other English one. No matter, I like that one, and am happy to continue using it. Who says I have to be consistent?)

Now a question you you native American speakers. In books, especially ones written in the mid 20th Century, people say stuff like:

"Why, no"
"Why, you so-and-so"
"Why, yes, I do believe ....

Obviously, this was common in the US around 1950, possibly more in the mid-west than elsewhere. Do people still say it? (Just curious.)
 

LOST6200

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Tannin said:
Your Chief Engineer is flat-out wrong, Pradeep. The correct spelling has both of the "l"s. As JTR probably already knows, there are international standards for the names of chemicals (developed for the very good reason that it can be critical to make sure you have the right chemical, next time you are mixing up a chocolate cake or an atom bomb) and according to IUPAC, the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry which is the body resopnsible for chemical names (in the same sort of way that the W3C is responsible for Internet standards and the IEEE for electronic stuff), aluminium is spelled A L U M I N I U M. Most non-English speaking countries apart from America spell it the correct way too, France and Germany, for example.

Sorry Tony, but IUPAC is not exactly as accepted as the international standard they they would like to be especially wrsp to languages. :roll: I don't know how it is in Australia, but in the US everything is identified by CAS number. Of course IUPAC nomenclature is still very important for understanding structure, but in this international, mulitilingual, multicultural world, identification must often be absolute and practical.
 

sechs

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mubs said:
America is especially good at corrupting language. It has something to do with always taking the easy way out.

Hardly. Look at the Great Vowel Shift and English's half-assed spelling. You cannot blame the Americans for that!
 

Tannin

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English spelling is vastly inferior to American spelling. Here in Oz, we are free to use either type without getting marked down for it, which is nice.

Curiously, although I much prefer American spelling on the whole, I nearly always use English spelling myself, purely out of habit. No, it wasn't that I was schooled with English spelling, I more-or-less learned it American style (mis-learned it actually - I'm a terrible speller), it's an entirely different type of habit: the habit of rejecting on sight anything that is (a) to do with langage and (b) American.

I should actually use American spelling (because it is more logical and better) just as I speak English (because it is more logical and better). (Excepting, of course, abortions like "airplane" and "aluminum": it's the likes of "color" and "center" that I'm talking about here.)

Tea would like American spelling too (if I let her) it haz more zeds in it.
 

sechs

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Tannin said:
English spelling is vastly inferior to American spelling. Here in Oz, we are free to use either type without getting marked down for it, which is nice.

Australians.... can't even choose. At least Canadians know what it's aboot.
 

mubs

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Tannin said:
...I speak English (because it is more logical and better)

You're wrong about this. Many Indo-European languages have better structure and grammar. That's why it's so bloody hard for one them to learn an illogical laguage like English.

What other languages can you speak, Tannin?
 

Buck

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mubs said:
Tannin said:
...I speak English (because it is more logical and better)

You're wrong about this. Many Indo-European languages have better structure and grammar. That's why it's so bloody hard for one them to learn an illogical laguage like English.

What other languages can you speak, Tannin?

Mubs, I think Tannin was saying that the version of English he speaks is more logical than the U.S. flavor, not necessarily better than non-English languages. Although, if you don't know any other languages, your mother tongue automatically becomes vastly superior to anything else -- it's the only logical form of verbal communication that you know.
 

Tannin

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I'm the same as Coug, Mubs. I am fluent in my native tongue (English) and can read and write effectively in, but not speak, a second language (American).

I wouldn't for one moment suggest that English is logical and simple as compared with .... well, lots of other languages, none of which I speak more than a few words of. No, it's as Buck said.
 

Onomatopoeic

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Reading through all of the above, I don't no weather I shuud laff or cry.


1.) Tannin, you are ABSOLUTELY correct. UPDATE: How about "a quarter until eight" (or "a quarter 'til eight").

2.) AluminIum is correct. If you want to use aluminUm in the USA, you may or may not be correct! AluminIum is the only accepted spelling in scientific circles. If you don't believe me, look at ANY periodic chart -- it doesn't even matter if it's a periodic chart printed in the United States -- it still AluminIum.

3.) Just a note to all you squabbling savages: There are essentially 2 forms of the English language. One form is Commonwealth English, the other North American English. Commonwealth English includes the dialects of English spoken in South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, England, Scotland, Wales, and even India and Hong Kong. North American English only includes the dialects of English spoken in USA and Canada. At one time, the Canadian English dialect was considered part of Commonwealth English, but the English linguists basically gave up and now classify Canadian English as a North American English dialect.

 

Fushigi

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