Ryzen

[Mercutio]

It seems that we'll be seeing RDNA 4 and at least the higher-end Zen 5 X3D devices in January. AMD released its plans for CES today and it sounds like everything they have for next year is on that list.

Edit: forgot the important linky part.

 

[LunarMist]

What is the meaning of that RDNA? Is it like rDNA, e.g., the 16S rRNA we used in the 2000s to determine the species?

 

[Mercutio]

I think it's just Radeon DNA. I'm not sure what part of that is the deoxyribonucleaic acid part, but I'm not a marketing guy.

 

[Santilli]

Should I let AMD software have access to my location? I need your advice. My first instinct aft reading their useage is it's a bunch of garbage designed to have you give them your personal information??? Suggestions???? Is there any real benefit to the software?

 

[LunarMist]

No.

 

[Mercutio]

It's just asking to grab more telemetry. I can't think of a reason to allow that either.

 

[Santilli]

Thank you both.

 

[LunarMist]

The 9800X3D] looks excessively good for the gamers. I wonder if the 9950X3D will be any good?

 

[Mercutio]

Everything about X3D is optimized for gaming. If your needs don't line up with small and extremely low-latency I/O tasks, I doubt you're going to get anything really interesting out of the new parts. The best case is probably that they're the same speed as the xxxxX versions, but that hasn't been true in previous generations, either.

 

[Mercutio]

I finally had an excuse to buy and use a 5700X3D in a build, as a drop in upgrade for a 2700X. I've had the CPU for a while, just no reason to do anything with it.

The promise of AM4 is real. I think it's about 60% faster than the old CPU and it's working well on an x370 motherboard, keeping up with my 7600X for eSports games and the same GTX 1080 installed.

I realize a 7600X isn't exactly high end, but I spent $160 to effectively make a new PC vs the $200 just to move to AM5/DDR5 and before I get a CPU is a pretty solid bargain.

I guess they're $180 when they aren't on sale. Still a great deal. Goddamn.

 

[Mercutio]

This guy just posted a 75 minute explanation of what all the advanced DRAM timing settings on Ryzen motherboards do, just in case anyone else has some hope of ever getting all four of their DIMMs to work some day.

 

[Mercutio]

I gave up on using my HX 370 mini desktop as a VM host and I've changed it into a sort of ultimate fat client PC and even my main daily-user system. I have a couple minor gripes with it, but this thing is for the most part an absolute dream. I can assign 8 or 16GB of its DDR5-8000 RAM to the iGPU and I can play with the overall system power budget to tune it for graphics work or gaming, to the point where I can get playable framerates in Cyberpunk 2077 objectively comparable Topaz AI Denoise speeds to an RTX 4060 mobile, about 10s per image.

My biggest problems with this PC, now that I'm sitting in front of it a lot (mostly a matter of trying to keep my apartment cool, the "people who don't have decent AC in the summer"-problem) is that it doesn't have any real high speed networking, and it gets concerningly loud for a mini-PC. I'm trying to find a good deal on USB4 to 10GbE NIC. 2.5GbE is pretty glacial when I'm used to the 40Gb connection between my desktop and my file servers. Noise? I'm not sure. The PC has an aluminum chassis and I have it sitting on top of an upside-down Scythe HSF just on the off chance that the extra radiative surface area might help it out a bit, but I'm not used to mini systems making noise long term like my little guy does when I'm applying effects in Resolve.

I'm mentioning all of this for the guys here who don't generally run stupidly high end systems. I paid like $750 for this thing. It's in the right ballpark to run contemporary games at 1080p off the APU and with 24 threads, it's also just fine handling the majority of anything I care to throw at it for content creation tasks. This PC would keep most people happy for YEARS.

 

[sedrosken]

It's definitely an interesting proposition for my desk for my next major upgrade in a few years. Do you know what kind of power it's drawing from the wall? It'd be interesting to see if it can outgun my desktop and Precision in even less power than the Precision takes, which is around 175-200W under load.

I don't really do too much on my main machines with optical media anymore, so I'm willing to let drive bays fall by the wayside -- I have a 'nugget shepherd' machine now to borrow a term from Dankpods, my Dimension 9200 has everything I need a tweener machine to have including a native floppy drive so I've been using that to write all my media lately.

 

[Mercutio]

I don't have a KillAWatt but specs say it tops out at 55W if you crank up all the performance settings in the firmware. Extremely reasonable, and I suspect you wouldn't be doing that much, anyway.

It has OcuLink, a second m.2 and an honest to god USB 4 port on it, so it really does have at least some form of expansion available.

 

[Mercutio]

Beelink SER5s have been my go-to client PCs for a while but this Firebat A6 is the same price as a Beelink 5825U and it has a newer 6800H (H = "high wattage") in it. They have 2x m.2 instead of 1xm.2 + 1x SATA and the construction is similar overall. My overall impression is that it's not bad at all, maybe even a little quieter than the Beelink.

 

[Mercutio]

I don't know if anyone caught this, but AMD has started calling mobile Ryzen 6000s "Ryzen 100 series" and mobile Ryzen 4000/5000 series Ryzen 10s. There's no change in the actual hardware. They're just naming them differently to match their high end branding. Thanks, guys.

 

[Mercutio]

It's been brought to my attention that it's possible to buy an Asrock BC250 SBC for around US$100. These things are 6c/12t Zen2 APUs with somewhere around Radeon RX580-class GPU cores and 16GB of all GDDR6 RAM. They're crypto-mining hardware and they don't have a bunch of traditional PC ports on them (they have Displayport, 1GbE and NVMe, plus a couple USB2s), but these things allegedly match the hardware that ship in a PS5, less some kind of PSU/chassis/cooling/storage, the kinds of things a lot of us just have sitting around. No Windows drivers but apparently they're just dandy on Linux. They draw 220W when they're running full tilt, so they aren't exactly a thin client, but that's a very credible basic system for its price and a little tinkering.

A couple years ago, there would be no doubt that I'd be ordering one, but I'm actually kind of drowning in stupidly powerful AMD mini-PCs already. This one is just more interesting than most for the big-boy graphics cores.

 

[Mercutio]

New Steam Deck thing was announced today. It's a 30W Zen4 6c/12t CPU with 16GB RAM and either 500GB or 2TB of internal storage. That sounds to me like a less powerful version of the HX 370, although I suppose it'll have newer and fancier GPU cores than that. It will purportedly be able to upscale enough to run most games at 4k60, which is something experience tells me an HX 370 absolutely can't do.

Apparently the GPU is an 8GB Radeon 7600 with fewer compute units. That doesn't sound very 4k-capable to me but I'll bet it's fine for 1080p gaming.

 

[Mercutio]

Just found this guy, who sells among other things, x16 to 2x x8 PCIe adapters and multiple varieties of SlimSAS (i.e. nvme) host adapters. His hardware looks like it all expects Bifurcation support, so it'll generally only work on AMD or Xeon hardware. All of it is somewhat affordable, around €150 for the most expensive offerings.

 

[Mercutio]

Today I wish to celebrate my sole remaining Ryzen 2700x, which I can stick in any AM4 motherboard and upgrade to support arbitrary Zen 3-whatever. It has been a real Bro for enabling upgrades to Vermeer-class CPUs even on crappy A320 boards.
I did not know there were so many AM4 Athlon systems still limping through this world.

 

[sedrosken]

I use my old Ryzen 1600AF for that purpose, myself. I think it might be a little funky on the very earliest Zen boards that have weird problems even with Zen+ (the 1600AF is a down-binned 2600) but in practice I've never had an issue.

 

[Mercutio]

I feel like motherboards are getting more affordable. That's probably not too surprising given how few people are building PCs right now, but my overall impression is that things are 15 - 20% cheaper than they were a year ago. I remember not seeing any AM5 ITX boards for less than $200 and I saw several options last time I went to Microcenter. As much as it sucks to shy away from RAM and SSDs, it might be a great moment to bide your time on otherwise expensive components.

I keep hearing that AMD might re-launch the 5800X3D for an AM4 anniversary edition. I can't imagine that will be anything but instantly scalped, but I'd make every effort to grab one if they do become available.

 

[Handruin]

I'm long overdue on an upgrade and should consider seizing the moment if MB prices are down to offset higher RAM pricing. I would like to refresh my late 2019 build

 

[Mercutio]

IIRC AMD has committed to AM5 for at least one more generation of desktop CPUs, so your Ryzen 10whatever should be an option on a motherboard you buy right now.

If you haven't been keeping up, Intel really pulled off a coup with the Arrow Lake Plus refresh it released a month ago. If you're willing to settle for its BS over single-generation CPU sockets, the U7 270k Plus is extremely attractive as it's performance-competitive with an R7 9800x3D and substantially cheaper.

I'm really happy with the Gigabyte Aorus B650I. It's an AM5 ITX board with 3 m.2 slots, real 20Gbit USB 3.2v2 and 4x SATAs. I just picked a couple up because they were reasonably priced ITX boards, but the box should just say "you get an extra m.2" in 144 point typeface on the front. AMD doesn't typically have actually-good ITX boards, so I was genuinely surprised by it.

 

[Handruin]

My ryzen 3950X is on AM4 so I'd need both parts to get started.

I really haven't kept up with Intel for a while so I appreciate the heads up. I'll take a look at those and cross compare.

I mainly only want something to effectively run my RTX5080 at 4K for games. I don't use my desktop for anything else these days.

An ITX size would be perfect, I'd love for the entire system to be compact now so that MB sounds perfect. I'll have a couple m.2 nvme drives and a couple SATA 2.5" SSDs and that's about it. 32GB RAM is all I probably need and a reasonable HSF to keep the temps and noise in check.

 

[Mercutio]

The Aorus B650i isn't silent. It has one of those stupid chipset fans, but you'd never know over a fan noise from a midrange GPU at full blast.
I built in a Fractal Terrra with a 9700X with a Be Quiet Purerock LP and an Asrock Radeon 9070, and honestly I'm giving serious thought to keeping it.

I've been building systems out of used RAM and spare SSDs. This is the first all-new PC I've built since before Thanksgiving. I used my last 16GB of DDR5 for it, but I also don't see a reason to use more RAM than that. I put it on CachyOS and use the same NFS shared storage configuration as the game systems I set up for my friends' kids about a month ago.

 

[Mercutio]

Some retailer in India apparently listed the 10th Anniversary 5800X3D for US ~$310. The 9700X is ~$350 and only 3 - 4% faster and obviously restrictive because of the platform requirement for DDR5. AMD could make an absolute killing if they return that chip to production.

Gamer's Nexus posted a 3 hour long video on the current state of PC consumer hardware OEMs right now, which did include some fairly open discussion on actual shipping numbers and ongoing costs. It's a fairly bleak picture and the video itself actually is worth a listen.

Also, for those who don't know, Youtube has a speed control under its options menu. By default, it'll go from .1 to 2x speed, but there's a browser add on called Youtube Custom Speed that you can install to zoom through at whatever speed you like. I often find 2.5x or 3x speed comfortable for talking head sorts of content.

 

[Handruin]

I was thinking more about your suggestions for the Gigabyte Aorus B650I and was thinking of doing a partial upgrade to my rig.

How bad would you roast this as an upgrade from my R9 3950X?

• AMD Ryzen 7 9850X3D ($440)
• Gigabyte B650I AORUS ULTRA Mini ITX Motherboard ($180)
• Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120 ($45)
• Crucial Pro Overclocking 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR5-6400 CL32 Memory ($370)

I still haven't decided on a case or PSU but those are more for personal taste. I'll reuse my existing 1TB Samsung NVme for the boot/OS and a couple of 2.5" SATA SSDs for extra gaming storage. I have a RTX 5080 FE to use with this as my GPU. I'll basically only use it for PC gaming. I can get all these at my local Micro Center and might drive out this week to pick up the parts.

 

[Mercutio]

I'd have concerns about keeping the area around the 9850X3D cool. The Peerless Assassin is a fantastic HSF and it's rated to handle bigger thermal loads than a mere 8c12t CPU should drop, but there really isn't any such thing as a roomy and well ventilated ITX chassis, either. Especially not one with a 5080 in it.

The Cooler Master NR200 moves the PSU to the front of the case and supports a top-mounted 240mm AIO, which isn't bad from an airflow perspective. Put some intake fans on the bottom, mount the GPU sideways and blow whatever warm air out the top if possible, If you're going with a tower cooler, make sure you're pushing air from the CPU fans out the back of the case. The NR200 also isn't much of a premium case, and it's kind of a stepchild because it's technically big enough to accommodate DTX and a small number of mATX boards and thus not really in the overall spirit of a small build. It's still a champ as a low-cost all around option.

The Fractal Mood is a case I'd avoid for anything with a big-boy GPU in it, although I know how cool they look. Taking one back is how I wound up with the Terra instead, which I quite like because the internal frame can be moved to support larger GPUs or tower fans if needed.

 

[sedrosken]

I know it's just the reality of the situation, but paying upwards of 400 dollars for a 32GB kit of RAM still strikes me as insane.

I concur with Merc. Everything else is fine, for the most part, but I don't know that I'd trust even a good cooler like the Thermalright to keep that 9850X3D cool in an ITX chassis that also has to house a 5080.

 

[Handruin]

After playing around with some configs, you're right the Peerless Assassin doesn't fit in a mini ITX case due to its size, or at least not in the Terra. I've seen some suggestions to use the Thermalright AXP90-X47 in all-copper but I'm still not convinced it'll manage the heat enough. I have to look a little closer at the GPU dimensions but maybe the Thermalright AXP120-X67 might work. Some more testing shared here (although they're using the 7800X3D)

I know it's just the reality of the situation, but paying upwards of 400 dollars for a 32GB kit of RAM still strikes me as insane.

I concur with Merc. Everything else is fine, for the most part, but I don't know that I'd trust even a good cooler like the Thermalright to keep that 9850X3D cool in an ITX chassis that also has to house a 5080.

What option you might suggest for the RAM given the insanity?

As for the case, I do like the FD Terra. I've also seen builds in the ncased t-series manage temps fine with a 5090 and a 9800X3D so it's possible.

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ncased.com

 

[sedrosken]

I don't have any suggestions there, just... lamenting, I suppose. Me personally, I kicked myself back to an Ivy Bridge box for the moment that's running DDR3 -- I'm hoarding my DDR4 very jealously indeed right now.

 

[Mercutio]

I am currently thanking my lucky stars that I've been pulling RAM and SSDs out of e-waste systems any time I'm asked to dispose of things. It doesn't help for DDR5 but 2 or 4GB DDR4/2666 and 240GB 2.5" drives I have a'plenty. Mostly, if I need some of either, I probably have it in a bin in my workspace.

I can KIND OF make my peace with buying just enough RAM to limp along while prices are where they are, at least for gaming or office work. Very few games actually need 16GB and sed and I have at least talked about the viability of 8GB for general Windows computing. RAM and storage prices both look like they did in about 2018, so I feel like that's where we should set our expectations as well. 32GB and 1TB drives are exotic luxury again.

 

[jtr1962]

I haven't in a while but holy shit! It looks like SSD prices jumped by a factor of 3 or 4 compared to what I remember. We were down to about $40 per TB on sale items. Now forget it. $200+ for 1 TB is the new normal.

What's the reason? AI again? Bad enough it's making our electric prices spike. Now it's doing the same with RAM and SSDs. I'm glad I have 32GB in my system.

We might be going back to the days when you have to make choices about what data to keep.

 

[Gödel]

Maybe tariffs / protectionism are playing a role?

Keep out / price out foreign RAM/SSDs, as if that will magically create American manufacturing capability.

 

[sedrosken]

Maybe tariffs / protectionism are playing a role?

Keep out / price out foreign RAM/SSDs, as if that will magically create American manufacturing capability.

Naw, the AI companies are just using their fake money they've been passing back and forth with nVidia to buy up literally entire production capacities for years at a time. They drove Micron out of the consumer sector entirely.

 

[Mercutio]

AI companies more or less bought out the entire year's production DRAM production from Samsung, SK/Hynix and Micron, the NAND Flash production from everybody who does THAT (fuck you if you wanted a thumb drive or SD card, let alone a new SSD) and also every spinning drive from Seagate and WD. They did all that in January and there are standing orders for next year as well. All of these companies are wary of overproduction, because they're generating staggering profits right now, so the only chance we'll see price reductions is if new manufacturers enter the market. The barriers to entry for this are staggering: Tens of billions of dollars to build out the industrial facilities and extremely specialized hardware that's basically only made by a Swiss(?) company that also sells to every other semiconductor fab. Nothing about this is going to change in the next couple years, for real.

This is a big reason why there's an ongoing theory that tech companies want to move humanity en mass to terminal-style systems where we have to rent every single thing we do. nVidia in particular REALLY would rather we all pay for Geforce Now than put those pesky unprofitable consumer GPUs in individual PCs for game playing. Microsoft and Adobe have well-known views on where computing should happen. "You'll own nothing and you'll like it." is the name of the game now.

There are still bright spots in PC hardware: I see premium cases selling a lot cheaper than they were. Monitors on both the high and low end are nicer and cheaper than they've ever been and it seems like the RAM/Storage crisis as reminded motherboard makers that there's such a thing as reality, since I can find solid $99 motherboards again after years of that not being a thing.

 

[Chewy509]

That GN video is certainly worth watching. A real eye opener when most OEMs for DIY are looking at 20-40% less trade, even Asus and I think it was MSI have openly stated they are looking at 25% reduction in motherboards shipped alone.

I've been asked for ball park numbers for a hardware refresh for our Lab systems at work as they are approaching 5 yrs old, and for some of the rackable workstations, for a system with 128GB of ECC DDR5 was AU$4000+ just for the RAM itself (non-ECC was just over AU$3K just for the RAM itself). As we were wanting 512GB of RAM, the rep came back a day later and said, that 16x32GB RegECC DDR5 configuration was a tad over AU$25K, again just for the RAM. When I asked the rep about HDD storage, and they said that anything above 8TB needs to custom ordered, and couldn't provide prices or lead times on 20TB+ HDDs currently.

Our old workstations have 384GB of RAM currently, and where looking at 512GB of RAM for this refresh, so the finance department is in for a shock, but my guess is that we are not getting hardware refreshes this year.

I know we're all used to DIY pricing, but I highly recommend if you want to be shocked, jump on Dell, HP or Lenovo, specifically target the workstations/servers and be prepared for shock. Fun fact, when I was looking at some of the Dell fileservers with 3.5" SAS for bulk storage, I could find only 1 configuration that allowed selection of greater than 8TB disks, and when selecting a 24TB 7.2K SAS drive, it was a tad over $2,300 per drive. (We typically run a 4-drive RAID10 setup).