Ryzen

[Mercutio]

It's only tangentially related to anything here but Be Quiet is sending me an almost complete set of internal plastic replacement parts for my Silent Base 801 after so much of it crumbled or sheared apart when I disassembled it for my AM5 build, and for free. I'm sure my case was on the upper range of acceptable thermals for the last five years and it took a real toll some of the parts. Lots of retention tabs and brackets came out as crumbs.

I'm basically just putting in a good word. I was thinking I'd have to buy a bunch of small parts but they're just shipping them to me.

 

[ddrueding]

This motherboard looks like a candidate for my next build. The additional RAM compatibility (still far from perfect) is most welcome.

 

[LunarMist]

Only two PCIe slots? Where do you store high bandwidth data and how do you get all that data anywhere with USB-4? It seems like a bad joke, either store data or move it around. Maybe Merc has some ideas.

 

[ddrueding]

Worse than just two PCIe slots, they can't both be 16x 5.0 at the same time.

But for me the thing I'm worried about going AMD is the memory compatibility issues, and this seems to be the best option there. 2x 48GB at 8800 would be great.

Storage is either local and fast or remote and slow. For my workflow this is fine.

 

[LunarMist]

It takes four lanes to get an SSD. Are you using the U.2/U.3 SSDs? The M.2 BS is only 8TB at most and not so many DWPD.
I'm not sure what you are doing, some financial or engineering work?
It doesn't seem like you are mainly a content creator or using any cards that would support 16x PCIe 5. Do you have large flash arrays or accelerators that need huge bandwidth or why not a Xenon with proper hardware?

 

[Mercutio]

Where do you store high bandwidth data

For ASrock, the top PCIe slot can be configured as 4x4x4x4, so go ahead and pop in a dumb 16x4 u.2 or m.2 HBA. My 9950x currently has ~30TB of NVMe 3/4 storage attached, which is an amount I'd comfortably call "enough." dd tends to have one high-end system at a time, and even with only 4x SATA, that could easily be another 96TB if he really needed it. I know I keep harping on about u.2, but truly, it's an inexpensive way to get 4 and 8TB drives in a form factor that's much easier to cool.

The bigger issue with doing something like that is actually clearance if you have multiple PCIe cards. In my case, I had to dig up a PCIe 3 extender cable for my Infiniband card, because my GPU is 2.5 slots deep and had to go in the middle slot. I physically couldn't install the GPU and my NIC on that motherboard.

From what I've read, there is very little benefit to going over DDR5-6400 because of all the ways you have to mess with clock timings to keep even clock speeds between CPU and RAM and the rest of the systems. Having DDR5-8000whatever might mean that you're better able to stay stable at 6400 with four DIMMs if that's the goal, but apparently it is possible to get there by buying much cheaper DIMMs as well.

 

[LunarMist]

Is there any benefit to X870E then, or is it just that there will be no choice after X670E stocks are depleted?

 

[ddrueding]

For me the only reason is the memory stability, otherwise I don't think it matters much. If you want more in the way of slots and storage, is Threadripper being developed at all anymore?

The increased capacity, performance, and reliability of modern drives means my my storage needs are no longer exotic. A 2TB system drive and some 8TB M.2s in external enclosures and I'm good. None of my Synology units have been powered on since....March?

I've basically retired from IT work, so I have very little need for building large storage systems.

I'll be starting my new company in the next couple months, doing engineering and product design things. The most computationally intense will likely be some FEA and Fluid Dynamics stuff, but all of it could fit easily on the 2TB system drive, with backups going to the externals.

And for photography, I've gotten much less trigger-happy in my old age. A day out rarely leads to more than 100-150 images, and I don't keep more than 10% of those long term.

 

[LunarMist]

If you want stable memory, then run it at JEDEC standard speeds and use a fully ECC chipset. Some higher RAM speeds are not beneficial depending on the clock ratios. Aren't you like early 40s? Wait until you are a true seniro to start complaining about age.

 

[ddrueding]

I don't need full stability, I probably wouldn't even notice one crash a week. But my understanding with the X670E is that you have basically no chance of high speeds, particularly at higher capacities, even with only 2 DIMMs. This doesn't seem fun to me.

And I do like performance from a purely enthusiast "hot rod" perspective. So I probably will go chasing timings on DDR5-8800 for the fun of it, and I'll certainly go custom water cooling for the fun of it. I may even de-lid the CPU just for the fun of it.

And I am only in my mid-40s, and I know that it can and will get worse from here, but man I feel old sometimes.

 

[Mercutio]

For me the only reason is the memory stability, otherwise I don't think it matters much. If you want more in the way of slots and storage, is Threadripper being developed at all anymore?

Yes, but it's generationally off by about a year from whatever AMD is doing on the desktop. Zen 4 Threadrippers were released last winter. Epyc is on its own timeline as well.

It's also very possible to find real deals on Threadripper workstation systems late in their lifecycle. Lenovo was closing out Thinkstation systems with 5970Xs and 4060-equivalent Quadro cards this spring for $1500, and that's realistically the only way you'll likely get a Threadripper-anything for under $2500. One of the cheery thoughts about getting a "lame" 9950X for me is that the CPU, motherboard and RAM in total cost less than I probably would've spent on just the motherboard to get a contemporary Threadripper CPU.

I may even de-lid the CPU just for the fun of it.

If you're going that far, you might as well look at liquid metal for your thermal transfer needs.

My feeling about hot rodding anything is that I just don't want to work that hard to keep a system running. I say that as my living room currently looks exactly like a computer store threw up, but that's just the state of moving components between systems and stopping to play with the new ones.

 

[jtr1962]

And I am only in my mid-40s, and I know that it can and will get worse from here, but man I feel old sometimes.

Age is a state of mind. I'm 62 in November and still feel like a teenager, especially when I'm riding my bike. Jimmy Carter just turned 100 today. 40s isn't old. In fact, I'd say nowadays it's late young age. Middle age probably ends around 70 at this point. Then you have young old age (70-80), middle old age (80-90), and old old age (90 to 100 plus).

My grandfather's grandmother missed 103 by 4 months in an era when lots of people didn't even see 50. Now more and more people can look forward to living that long, or even older.

 

[LunarMist]

Age is not at all a metaphysical BS. Organ failures highly correlate to age. And if you want to live to 100 it is not fun or painless. Make sure you have a lot of money saved.

 

[Mercutio]

Setting the age conversation aside and to answer LM's question, the big thing other thing that was supposed to come with the x870(E) was supposed to be mandatory USB 4 support. Which is something for someone I guess, but USB adoption is always screwy and uneven and I just can't get excited about it. The x600 and x800 platforms are basically comparable, with the biggest changes being 8 extra PCIe lanes and more high speed USB 3 ports coming with the -E revisions

 

[Handruin]

I decided to take a chance and to build out a new homelab server using this Minisforum BD-790i SE with the Ryzen 9 7940HX Processor for $329. This should have more compute than my ancient dual socket Xeon e5-2650 v2 while using much less energy. My plan is to run Proxmox on it and host a few game servers.

 

[LunarMist]

Setting the age conversation aside and to answer LM's question, the big thing other thing that was supposed to come with the x870(E) was supposed to be mandatory USB 4 support. Which is something for someone I guess, but USB adoption is always screwy and uneven and I just can't get excited about it. The x600 and x800 platforms are basically comparable, with the biggest changes being 8 extra PCIe lanes and more high speed USB 3 ports coming with the -E revisions

Initial reports in July indicated that the X870E was a step backwards since they were usurping PCIe lanes for USB 4.
Is it possible to reclaim those USB 4 PCIe lanes in the BIOS or are they shared bandwidth and it makes no difference to PCIe usage?

 

[Mercutio]

AMD says both x670e and x870e have the same 44 total PCIe 5 lanes, but lots of boards do goofy things like run the second slot and third x16s at PCIe 4.0.

 

[sedrosken]

My feeling about hot rodding anything is that I just don't want to work that hard to keep a system running. I say that as my living room currently looks exactly like a computer store threw up, but that's just the state of moving components between systems and stopping to play with the new ones.

Yeah, I'm over custom thermal solutions with the possible exception of that new PTM7950 or whatever it is once I finally manage to run out of Kryonaut paste, assuming it really is as easy to work with as people say it is. I'm over overclocking, I'm over hardware tinkering on my daily-use machines. I have a certain level of performance I need for a given use, if I can't get it with a class of hardware, I just move on to the next one.

 

[Mercutio]

Something I've just encountered for the first time ever is a Ryzen 5700GE. I'm glad I looked it up because it's some kind of secret OEM only product that's all kinds interesting because, like Intel processors with the -T suffix, it trades acouple hundred MHz per core for almost half the wattage. 16 threads at 4.3GHz and Vega graphics with cheap RAM at only 35W? 80W max? That's really hard to argue against. There's a 5600GE as well but they're basically selling secondhand for the same price, around $150. I guess you have to get one from a system pull if you want one anyway.

There's i7 12700ts as well but they use more power and still cost north of $200, albeit with some extra E cores.

Now I know what I want to do with the spare x470 boards I have.

 

[LunarMist]

It's OEM for SFF machines. https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4387vs4323/AMD-Ryzen-7-5700GE-vs-AMD-Ryzen-7-5700G

 

[Handruin]

That kind of low power consumption in a capable CPU package is what interested me in the MB I linked above with the AMD Ryzen 9 7940HX. It is on par or faster than a 7900X at 55W TDP vs 170W TDP. Granted the CPU is stuck in a specific motherboard but it has potential for being a decent low power budget system.

 

[Mercutio]

That's in a NUC form factor, right? No big boy I/O other than maybe USB 4?

 

[Handruin]

I don't remember the NUC form-factor but this is a mini-ITX with a full 16x PCIe 5.0 slot.

Specs:

• Mini-ITX Form Factor (170x170x1.6mm)
• AMD Ryzen 9 7940HX, 16 Cores/32 Threads Processor
• AMD Radeon 610M Integrated Graphics
• DDR5 Dual Channel (SODIMM Slots, up to 5200 MT/s)
• 2x M.2 2280 PCIe Gen 4.0x4 SSD Slots
• 1x M.2 2230 Key E Slot for NIC
• 1x PCIe 5.0 X16 Slot for GPU (with Metal Fasteners）

Ports:
1x USB 3.2 Gen 2 Type-C (Alt DisplayPort 1.4)
2x USB 3.2 Gen 1 Type-A
2x USB 2.0 Type-A
1x HDMI 2.0
1x DisplayPort 1.4
1x RJ-45 2.5G Ethernet
1x Line Out

 

[Mercutio]

I looked at the picture on my phone and thought that thing was a NUC-alike. Mea culpa. The x16 PCIe is what makes the biggest difference though. Having all the CPU cores in the world stuck on something with limited connectivity is definitely sub-optimal.

 

[Handruin]

I agree, it's nice it has the option. I know this board has a bunch of compromises such as no SATA ports but for what I plan to use it for it wasn't an issue. Given the $330 price point it has a lot to offer for me and I'm considering adding a GPU down the road for Plex offloading. I doubt the build-in 610M does much other than get me a basic display.

 

[Mercutio]

Bare bones Radeon graphics should get you hardware HEVC encoding. That should be plenty for a Plex stream or two. The encoding features usually don't change within the same hardware generation.

My Plex server has a GTX 1050 in it instead of using the ASpeed IPMI controller for video. At some point I'm going to switch in an Arc A380. I'm sure it'll wind up being the cheapest way to get contemporary media encoding in that system.

 

[Handruin]

I had seen someone recommend this A310 for transcoding and thought it looked interesting given the low power requirement and small size. This should be good enough for a handful of streams.

Sparkle Intel Arc A310 ECO, 4GB GDDR6, 50W TBP, Short Bracket is Included, Low-Profile, Single Fan, Single Slot, HDMI x1, Mini DisplayPort x2, SA310C-4G

https://a.co/d/bWV6HVd

 

[Mercutio]

I have to roll my eyes at GPUs at the $100 price point. Part of the appeal of a 1-slot GPU is easy cooling and no extra power, but we all remember being able to get some kind of $35 card that more or less existed just to give someone three displays and just enough OpenGL/DirectX for to not be a joke. The cheapest cards being $100 feels like the last gasp of the Crypto mining crisis, even if getting the hardware codecs from Arc might actually be worthwhile.

 

[ddrueding]

I've also read that the onboard graphics from any of the big three are already better than $100 GPUs, so again the only point would be do get the codec support with as low a power draw as possible.

 

[ddrueding]

A ways up this thread we discussed memory compatibility, and the impact of even unpopulated memory slots on reliability and performance. This is a fun dive into more of that are interested in the geekier electrical engineering bits.

 

[LunarMist]

I'm not allowed without signing into some scheme. Surely servers have TB of RAM so maybe the issues are the consumer grade systems?

 

[fb]

EPYC servers have 12 slots/CPU. I had to Google, but it seems like each DIMM slot has it's own memory channel.

Balanced Memory Configurations with 4th Generation AMD EPYC Processors

Configuring a server with balanced memory is important to maximizing its memory bandwidth and overall system performance. 4th Gen AMD EPYC processors, code named "Genoa", support twelve memory channels per processor and up to two DIMMs per channel, so it is important to understand what is...

lenovopress.lenovo.com

 

[Mercutio]

The way SMP computers normally work is that banks are reserved per CPU socket. There's almost always an order in which the slots have to be populated for the goddamned things to boot properly. The order usually uses the farthest unpopulated banks, so on a system with 4 DIMMs total and two CPUs, you'll use banks 1, 12, 13 and 24. I suspect that is also to minimize crosstalk.

Some of my servers have a handy sticker with population order on the underside of the top of the chassis, and for the ones that don't have such a sticker, I almost always wind up putting it there with a sharpie.

 

[Mercutio]

Apparently Core Ultra 9 285k benchmarks show that it's functionally on par with the 9950X on typical benchmarks while using somewhat less power than the 14900k.

This is important because the 14900k is faster for games than the 9950X. If that's what you care about for your next gen CPU, you'd better hope you can get REAL excited about lower TDPs instead, because the 7800x3D and 14900k are still the high water mark processors if 3% more frames per second is the only thing you care about.

 

[LunarMist]

What are the thoughts about the 9950X3D, will it be a decent upgrade?

 

[ddrueding]

I'm hoping it will be, otherwise I'll just keep sitting on my 13900kf until it fails.

 

[Mercutio]

I'm hoping it will be, otherwise I'll just keep sitting on my 13900kf until it fails.

Dave, you are rocking a two year old flagship CPU and GPU. I realize cost is not a limiting factor for you but unless you suddenly need a fuck-ton of 40Gb+ Thunderbolt ports in the next 12 - 24 months, there's probably not a single damned thing you're likely to get out of a CPU upgrade or platform change other than possibly 3% more frames in a game where you're already bumping up against monitor refresh rate limits.

What are the thoughts about the 9950X3D, will it be a decent upgrade?

Oddly enough, there were some leaked 9x00x3D Cinebench scores leaked over the weekend that showed slightly lower single-core performance than 9x00X but somehow better multi-core scores. Which could mean there's some different optimizations at play with V-cache, but could also mean that AMD has found an optimization to cheat at Cinebench more effectively.

 

[Mercutio]

using somewhat less power

OK, the lower power demands are actually very substantial: The 2x0 7/9 SKUs are 125W / 250W max TDP and Ultra 5s will max out at 160W. So Intel is getting quite a bit of benefit from the die shrink, just not as a performance boost.

Source is some leaked slides for the release press kit that's supposed to happen tomorrow, leading up to a release at the end of the month.

 

[Handruin]

I'm still interested being a couple generations behind. Assuming the X3D versions aren't bad in some way, I'll hopefully get a decent bump in performance so that 4K gaming gets better avg frame rates compared to now.

 

[Mercutio]

Zen 5 isn't bad as it is. It got slightly better performance on lower power draw. If you're coming from anything other than Zen 4, it's going to be substantially faster than what you have.