AM2 - Let the Games Begin

[Buck]

I’m building my first AM2 system for a client. I didn’t think it would come around this quickly, as socket 754 is still a great performer for offices and comes at a great price. Nonetheless, this is not a typical customer, so we’re venturing into the AM2 arena. Here is the hardware list:

CPU: Athlon63 X2 3800+
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-M55PLUS-S3G
Memory: 512 MB DDR2-667 x 2
Video Card: Gigabyte GV-NX76G256D-RH
HDD: HD040HJ (boot/apps/os)
HDD: HD160JJ x 2 (mirrored; data)
DVD: Sony DW-Q120A (leftover from another request)
Case: Antec NSK4400

I’ll begin building the beastie on Friday and we’ll see how it goes.

 

[Groltz]

Looks like a pretty formidable parts list, Buck.

Where do you get Athlon63's from?? ;-)

 

[ddrueding]

Looks good. I'm afraid the feature set I want on a motherboard is still only available on an ASUS board for AM2. Still waiting.

 

[Buck]

Turned out to be a nice system. I really like the Gigabyte video card with heat-pipes. It certainly keeps the noise of the system to a minimum. The RAID feature from nVidia was easy to use. It sure was nice to have to channels so that I could boot from a single SATA drive on one channel and then have two 160JJ drives mirrored on the other channel. The downside was that the various chipset drivers didn't install easily. Even though I selected them for the install, it took some manual work afterwards to the audio and USB working correctly.

Once the system was setup at the customer's house, I installed the HP drivers and software for their HP printer. It installed HP Image Share, which proved to be a pain. When I right-clicked the folder on the desktop, the system would freeze, and stay that way for minutes. I rebooted manually, went to Control Panel and uninstalled this "feature" -- good riddens.

After spending an hour with the customer, installing applications and aquainting them with their new system, I was ready to leave and the customer was happy -- that is always good. She nor her husband have called back, so that is good. I'll have to check up with them today.

All in all, AM2 is just as easy as other systems, but I am looking forward to VIA's chipset for AM2. VIA still seems to be a less fussy install.

 

[ddrueding]

I always explain to people that HP is a hardware company, not a software company. I always reccomend they install as little HP software with their printer as possible. Occasionally I'll go into why their computers are such crap (software) and point out that we don't want their computer to catch whatever HPs have.

 

[Buck]

Looks like a pretty formidable parts list, Buck.

Where do you get Athlon63's from?? ;-)

Interestingly, the FAQ for our forum says that we can edit our posts, just click on the Edit icon.

 

[Handruin]

There should be a 5 minute edit period for new posts. Perhaps I screwed up a setting in the admin section. I'll play around with it and get back to you.

 

[ddrueding]

I'm sure there is a 5 minute period where we can edit posts, but where is the edit button?

 

[Adcadet]

why only 1/2 GB of RAM? I've been running my Newcastle 3000+ with 512 for 2.5 years now, and the limiting factor for me is usually RAM.

 

[ddrueding]

it was 2x 512MB = 1GB, but that is still pretty light. All mine have 3-3.5GB in them.

 

[Adcadet]

it was 2x 512MB = 1GB, but that is still pretty light. All mine have 3-3.5GB in them.

Doh. Missed that. Thanks.

 

[Buck]

I like the current availability of lower priced AM2 Sempron processors, such as the 3000+ and 3400+. I think it is time to make the switch to AM2.

 

[Mercutio]

One of our training clients wants new computers. He set a budget of $1500 per PC. No monitor, just the PC. And a seperate budget for labor and support for three years.

The sad thing is, I can't figure out how to spend more than slightly over half that amount.

X2/4800
Antec NSK4400 Case
2GB Corsair DDR2 800 RAM
Gigabyte 6100-based motherboard
160GB Samsung drive
16x NEC DVD Burner
80-billion-in-1 card reader
Firewire card

I could literally stick an X1900XTX and a 500GB drive in every one of those machines and still be under budget.

 

[P5-133XL]

If you need to spend money, may I suggest large SCSI drives, and/or server components. But the ethical reply, is to give him multiple quotes: One where you give him what he needs, and a middle one, where he gets some extra benefit for the extra money, and a third one, where you spend the budget.

 

[Buck]

I would be inclined to use a separate video card.

Depending on the customer's performance needs, you might want to spec out multiple hard drives. One for boot/apps, another for data, and possibly a third for swap/scratch.

 

[Handruin]

I was thinking similar to Buck regarding multiple drives, but consider mirroring the drives for a little extra protection. That or quote them a NAS device to backup their data. Maybe even suggest UPS's for each machine to help protect them?

 

[ddrueding]

...or you could just sub the contract to me; I'll give you an $800/machine quote and you can have your margin

I would certainly not be doing onboard video; just include some 7900GTs, 4800+ X2, 2x 320GB Seagate, and an iRAM that's maxxed out.

 

[Mercutio]

Realistically, there's no reason for any of those things. These machines will sit in a lab and be unused for probably 95% of their 3-year shelf life. They don't need graphics hardware beyond what's needed to run Vista.... which the 6100 is perfectly capable of doing. They don't need SCSI drives or multiple hard disks (I will be using around 15GB total on whatever drive gets installed and the machines will be imaged back to their default state once a week).

There's already a full rack of Enterprise-class crap out there. Cisco switches, WAPs and a Cisco router, a well appointed 2003 Server etc. No need for a NAS or tape changer.

Specifically regarding video hardware: The PCs on site have 19" LCDs(!) that are run at 800x600. The people using these machines are middle-aged men who by and large won't wear or forget their reading glasses when they come to computer classes. They get bitchy when someone bumps screen resolutions up to something tolerable (yes, we've tried large icons, large fonts etc, but it causes problems for them when the system our projector is hooked up to doesn't look exactly the same as theirs). Much as I hate nVidia, I'm going to say at this point that there's not any appreciable difference between 800x600 on a 6100 and 800x600 on an X1600 or the like. I probably will throw something in, but it seems like a waste of money if those capabilities won't ever be used.

Oh, and they have sitewide licenses for all their software.

My latest thought is just to buy a bunch of laptops and laptop locks. I can't see any other realistic way to spend $1500 on a pure business machine.

 

[ddrueding]

Honestly, the only performance improvement that they will really see would be the iRAMs. It would make the user experience significanly better, and make re-imaging much faster.

 

[Mercutio]

Reimaging isn't a time-limited process. It takes four and a half minutes now, which I'm fairly certain is limited by the speed of the hard disks involved. I don't see a RAMdrive making that better.

 

[Buck]

Buy them new Samsung 244t displays.

 

[Mercutio]

In a training environment, you want people to be able to see around the monitor, Buck.

Also, and I plan to continue to bitch about it until it gets better, where the hell are the 24" 4:3 monitors? Grrr.

 

[P5-133XL]

Realistically, there's no reason for any of those things. These machines will sit in a lab and be unused for probably 95% of their 3-year shelf life. They don't need graphics hardware beyond what's needed to run Vista.... which the 6100 is perfectly capable of doing. They don't need SCSI drives or multiple hard disks (I will be using around 15GB total on whatever drive gets installed and the machines will be imaged back to their default state once a week).

There's already a full rack of Enterprise-class crap out there. Cisco switches, WAPs and a Cisco router, a well appointed 2003 Server etc. No need for a NAS or tape changer.

Specifically regarding video hardware: The PCs on site have 19" LCDs(!) that are run at 800x600. The people using these machines are middle-aged men who by and large won't wear or forget their reading glasses when they come to computer classes. They get bitchy when someone bumps screen resolutions up to something tolerable (yes, we've tried large icons, large fonts etc, but it causes problems for them when the system our projector is hooked up to doesn't look exactly the same as theirs). Much as I hate nVidia, I'm going to say at this point that there's not any appreciable difference between 800x600 on a 6100 and 800x600 on an X1600 or the like. I probably will throw something in, but it seems like a waste of money if those capabilities won't ever be used.

Oh, and they have sitewide licenses for all their software.

My latest thought is just to buy a bunch of laptops and laptop locks. I can't see any other realistic way to spend $1500 on a pure business machine.

Low end -- Your component selection
Mid-range -- Shuttle form factor (Smaller is better)
High End -- Laptop form factor (Hard to justify for a lab though)

You can also work on increasing reliability to increase price -- redundant PS's or super high quality PC Power and cooling PS's, mirroring drives; Hot-swap components; redundant NIC's etc. (All businesses like improved reliability)

The worst case senario -- Just plain don't use the entire budget and explain in your quote that for their uses, they shouldn't need to spend more.

 

[P5-133XL]

where the hell are the 24" 4:3 monitors? Grrr.

My main 22" CRT monitor, after over 10 years of service, this week went tits-up and I started searching for exactly that. I agree, Grrr

 

[ddrueding]

Just use what I've gotten for my blind clients; 36" widescreen LCD TVs as monitors. $700 and a 1024 width that they can see. Score.

 

[Tannin]

There are no decently large, usefully shaped monitors because the entie bloody industry is obsessed with chasing the subset if the market which consists of brain-dead twerps who can't think of anything to do with a monitor except watch DVD movies on it.

The product planners are probably sitting there right now saying "but the brain-dead ones are the only ones who buy stuff".

Well of course they bloody are you morons! You don't make anything else!

You have 1001 products on the market already and they are all exactly the bloody same as each other - and none of them are products that anyone except a brain-dead DVD-waching twerp would buy, with or without the silver paint and the flashing blue LEDs, and you don't make anything for the rest of us.

For the love of Mike, would you open a pet food shop, stock it with nothing but 3007 different brands of bird seed, and then turn around and complain that cat and dog owners never spend any money in your shop anyway, it's only people with pet birds that buy pet food so it's not worth making a can of dog food?

I've got green things growing in the back of my fridge that are brighter than you are. And probably better to sleep with.

 

[P5-133XL]

Just use what I've gotten for my blind clients; 36" widescreen LCD TVs as monitors. $700 and a 1024 width that they can see. Score.

LCD TV's don't have the resolution I'm looking for in a monitor. Perhaps you like your monitors to be low resolution while being incredibly large: I don't. My previous monitor an IIyami Pro 510 would run at 2048x1536@80Hz in its 22". Care to find me a TV that will do that and properly scale the resolution as the screen size increases? Now mind you, I didn't run it at that resolution because the text and icons were just too small: My normal resolution was 1600x1200@75Hz.

Now 10+ years have gone by and I'd like a monitor that is bigger and better. Upgrading a 4:3 monitor from 22 to 24" would seem possible while scaling the resolution upwards. But I see them not. If I want to improve my resolution, it seems, I need to go wide-screen and definately not a TV.

 

[fb]

I don't know, but maybe it's related to bandwith limitations of DVI or something? Don't you need two DVI-connectors to run the Apple Cinema 30" at 2560x1600?

 

[Pradeep]

You need a dual-link DVI connection to run at 2560*1600 on the 30" screens (Dell and Apple). Single connector, but uses all the pins.

Mark, you may want to consider the Dell 2407 (1920*1200 in 24"). More rez "on the sides". And it works fine at 1920*1200 on VGA if you don't have DVI.

 

[Pradeep]

Specifically regarding video hardware: The PCs on site have 19" LCDs(!) that are run at 800x600. The people using these machines are middle-aged men who by and large won't wear or forget their reading glasses when they come to computer classes. They get bitchy when someone bumps screen resolutions up to something tolerable (yes, we've tried large icons, large fonts etc, but it causes problems for them when the system our projector is hooked up to doesn't look exactly the same as theirs).

Interesting you mention that, we have twelve Dell 20" 2001FP screens at the monitoring console, and the ones that are running Windows are inevitably set to 1024*768. The older operators just can't read the screen when it's set to 1600*1200. I just switch it to UXGA on my shift, and set it back down before I leave.

 

[Pradeep]

Pic:

 

[Buck]

Also, and I plan to continue to bitch about it until it gets better, where the hell are the 24" 4:3 monitors? Grrr.

Very true.

 

[Handruin]

Is it worth putting DDR2-800 ram on an AM2 board like the one Buck listed in his first post or is it wasted money on a similar system in a 2x 512MB config (gigabyte board with an AM2 X2 3800+)?

• A 2x 512MB DDR2 667 is about $120 for the basic corsair value select (The timing is unknown for this ram).
  
• The DDR2-800 CORSAIR XMS2 1GB (2 x 512MB) can be had for $148 (5-5-5-15).
  
• There is also the OCZ Gold 1GB (2 x 512MB) with a (5-5-5-12) for $120 but the reviews say it's hit or miss with different motherboards.

I don't know if it's really worth the money, but the OCZ looks tempting for the same price as the corsair value select.

 

[Buck]

I don't know if it's really worth the money, but the OCZ looks tempting for the same price as the corsair value select.

I would be more concerned with stability, hence I would pick the Corsair memory. I don't suspect you'll see a speed increase going from 667 to 800 for most tasks. For $148.00 that should include shipping.

 

[Mercutio]

I was planning to build an AM2 system this afternoon, but Newegg apparently shipped me straight-DDR instead of the 240-pin stuff.

I called around. The local shops are still selling 939. The closest place with DDR2 is almost 40 miles away. Several places, I asked if they sell anything Intel, and the almost universal response was "Not unless we have to."

Funny how slow the rest of the world seems, compared to the Internet.

 

[Adcadet]

I picked up a Samsung 204B last week, and absolutely love it. 20", 1600x1200. Blue LED in front is to too bright, either.

 

[Buck]

I picked up a Samsung 204B last week, and absolutely love it. 20", 1600x1200. Blue LED in front is to too bright, either.

Glad you like it.

 

[Adcadet]

Glad you like it.

Thanks for the recommendation, by the way.