OMNGF! Even I can nottice the prikcing error. Go here tto calcualter the value in curency of your country. http://www.oanda.com/convert/classic?user=americanexpress
Another Digital Camera Thread - Point and Shoot
- Thread starter timwhit
- Start date
Stereodude
Not really a
Uhhh... Over $14k?
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
Does anyone know what current P&S camera has the best video quality?
Specifically, the camera will be used SCUBA diving and needs to have an underwater case available for it.
I already recommended getting a camcorder, but the cases for camcorders are much more expensive and limited than for P&S cameras.
Specifically, the camera will be used SCUBA diving and needs to have an underwater case available for it.
I already recommended getting a camcorder, but the cases for camcorders are much more expensive and limited than for P&S cameras.
tim, the Sony is decent, but as often the case, there are better choices in that price range. It's a pretty little camera, though, so if she values that (and why wouldn't she, being a girl), you may want to think twice about getting her a camera that performs better but looks worse.
In any event, I would prefer something like the Canon A570is, or if you can still find the A710is, it might be slightly more $, but worth it for its ability to shoot RAW mode and use the live histogram and zebra modes through a firmware extension, as well as its 6x zoom.
Other options are the Fuji F31fd or 40fd (assuming you can find them on clearance before they run out of stock), maybe even the Canon SD800is (on closeout too), although the SD800 won't be a noticeable step up in image quality except for the wide-angle lens.
On another note, it saddens me to see venerable lens makers like Carl Zeiss whore themselves out to Sony et al. to produce cheapo lenses for the P&S set. On the flip side, I think that if they can produce cheap, relatively good lenses for P&S, why can't they produce better consumer SLR lenses that can compete with Nikon, Canon, Tamron, Tokina, and Sigma?
Man, I'm overwhelmed at the amount of P&S cameras out there. I looked through all your suggestions and I'm not finding many places with the Fuji F31fd, but the newer version (f50fd) is out with the ridiculous 12MP sensor. Basically the reviews said the same as I've read here..marketing drove that decision.
I'm looking for a camera for my girlfriend and Olympus 790SW seemed rather interesting because its claim is for durability. However, in many of the comments I've read online, it doesn't hold up to the 10 feet water resistance that it's claimed to have and also people have said that dirt finds its way in. That really hasn't helped my decision.
In terms of decent cost, the Canon A570is you mentioned is still available, but my only dislike is that it requires AA batteries (or rechargeables). Perhaps I'm just being thick, but I like it when camera's include their own rechargeable battery. Newegg has it for $158 with a free 1GB SD and free charger.
ddrueding
Fixture
I like it when it includes a battery where replacements easily replaceable and available from multiple sources. Actually, even if it isn't included, thats what I'm looking for.
udaman
Wannabe Storage Freak
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Don't be cheap (unless she's not really worth the $$$
, buy a 710is while they are still available... e_dawg's posts haven't convinced you yet of that value?). That being said, Sigma is still trying (WTF is so hard?) to put out their APS sized sensor in a compact digicam. And yes you are being dense/narrowminded/geeky. People who don't give a rat's arse about how a camera functions, also don't pay attention to how much charge is left on a Li-Ion proprietary battery. Yeah, miss that shot while you're in China pm vacation and your g/f will hate you for being so narrowminded, or just another city in the USA because your g/f went light in travel and forgot to bring the charger. AA's you can by at almost any store, Sanyo low-loss memory AA NiMH's are ready to go up to a year after the last charge. No excuses Handy, get the AA 710is Canon.
so if I buy that, and point it at Jessica Alba how will it read her heat signature...of the charts hot? http://www.egotastic.com/entertainment/celebrities/jessica-alba/
And if I point that at Brittany when she's ever the pantiless in short miniskirt dresses that paps like to photograph her in; will that $100k device explode from rejecting such an objectionable, repulsive image???
e_dawg
Storage Freak
Have you tried fleabay? They usually have people selling cameras you can't buy in stores anymore for 50-100% more than the original price.
The Pentax Optio Wx0 line is better known for its water/dustproof capability:
http://www.h20camera.com
Neither Olympus nor Pentax are known for particularly good image quality when it comes to P&S cameras, though.
Good price. Some people love AA's because you are not stuck with another proprietary battery and you can buy AA's from any convenience / drug / electronics store when your batteries die earlier than you expected and you still have hours of potential pics to take (happened to me this summer in Paris... i bought a 4-pack of AA's from a drugstore before going to the Science & Innovation museum after having depleted my 2500 mAh NiMH's earlier in the day... this despite the battery meter showing 2/3 capacity remaining when i left the hotel that morning and the first 1/3 lasting for 2 entire days... this saved the day, as i would have been kicking myself for a long time for not charging the batteries the night before to be safe)
Some people much prefer proprietary batter packs because they are usually smaller and lighter, often using higher density Li ion cells.
The A570is is a good low cost choice if you can't find the F31fd. The A650is and A720is are decent choices as well if you can't find the A710is.
But the best (non-bridge / non-superzoom) P&S on the market these days for sheer photographic capability -- if you're willing to pay for it -- has to be the Canon G9. It's basically an A650is with a hotshoe and the ability to shoot in RAW mode. Until the Sigma DP1 arrives in time for next xmas, this is the best P&S you can get, IMO, and the only thing really worth stepping up from the A570is to.
Imagine mounting a 430/580EX flash on the hotshoe and using a Sto-fen OmniBounce to take bounce flash pics indoors when everybody else is using their harsh, garish built-in flashes to roast their subjects in cold blue light. Or attaching a Cactus Wireless flash controller to the hotshoe and setting up a studio quality multi flash lighting setup, and then importing the CR2 RAW files for retouching into Photoshop via ACR... all with your point & shoot camera!
e_dawg
Storage Freak
That is, unless you can find the A710is instead, which is, as udaman reiterated above, definitely preferable to the A570is by virtue of its ability to shoot in RAW mode and use the live histogram & zebra mode with 3rd party firmware. It doesn't have the hotshoe of the G9, but is otherwise almost just as good and (depending if you can still find the A710is in the stores or not) much cheaper.
We will all be in nursing homes by the time that one is released. It is the Atlas 10K II of the p/s world.
Tony loved that one. Don't be cheap (unless she's not really worth the $$$
She's worth every bit of the money and more. However, on the practical side, she has two kids. That's not to say they'll intentionally break a camera, but sometimes things just happen...Any camera I get for her will be better than what she has now.
I'm not too thrilled with trying to buy a camera from someone off eBay...I know things usually go fine, but it's a trust thing.
I've seen the same from their example images...the camera seems ok, but the pictures didn't impress me too much. I think I'd be ok with that if the camera really was as shock and water resistant as they claim. The user comments I've read at several locations indicate that they are not as rugged as they claim to be. I only researched the Olympus 790SW, so I don't know about the Pentax...I'll look into that one some more.
The Canon G9 does look really nice, but it's way overkill for my girlfriend and her needs. She won't care about RAW images or the hot shoe like you or I would. That camera would be nice for me to have in those times when my SLR is too large to carry everywhere. For her, it would be best to have something she can take with her for those random moments where she's out to dinner or out somewhere with her kids and it can be kept in her purse...etc. For times when she wants more, I just let her use my 20D.
I'm going to think about the A570is and A720is some more to see if it's worth moving up to the A720is.
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
The A series has that bulk that your right hand wraps around. It makes for a better grip, I suppose, but for me that extra depth was the deal breaker as the camera is no longer suitable to just drop in a pocket. That was a contributing factor back when I went with the SD800is.
mubs
Storage? I am Storage!
Women seem to love the SD series; small enough to fit in a purse. I got an SD600 for my wife in 2006 and she uses it a lot. This is a person who is very picky about things. She takes way more pics (and mostly good ones, too; she has a knack for it) than I do.
e_dawg
Storage Freak
Yes, lost in all this technical discussion is size & weight and how sleek and sexy it looks for women.
To your point, mubs, women tend to have a better eye for beauty and composition than men do in general.
To your point, mubs, women tend to have a better eye for beauty and composition than men do in general.
I bought an SD800IS (as a gift) because it had a 28 mm equivalent lens at the wide end as well as an optical viewfinder. Recently P/S cameras have too many pixels and horrific NR at higher ISOs. Some of the old 5 megapixel P/S cameras were better overall than the replacements IMO.
e_dawg
Storage Freak
Indeed. Fuji was the last holdout during the megapixel wars, but with the launch of the F50, it looks like all hope is lost. Although, I do think that we will see a temporary plateau in megapixel count as mfr's struggle to keep raising pixel density. I think the ISO wars are now in full swing, and will overtake the megapixel race with triple shake/blur reduction, super noise reduction, and number of faces detected and locked onto simultaneously as the marketing themes for 2008. I'm predicting wideangle capability and responsiveness will be part of the marketing themes for P&S cameras in 2009.
So I found the A720is for $190 at CircuitCity which ended up being about $10 cheaper because I bought it online and picked it up at the store near my house. They also had a bin of sandisk 2GB SD cards for $19 so I bought three of them...when I got the register they were actually $17, so it was a decent buy.
e_dawg
Storage Freak
Took these pics at a basketball game with my compact P&S camera (Canon A710is):
Jamario Moon shooting over Antawn Jamison
Chris Bosh
Jamario Moon taking it to the hoop! (check out the fan in the front row in awe!) Watch for him in Saturday's dunk competition against Dwight Howard. I think it could be those two in the finals...
Jamario Moon shooting over Antawn Jamison
Chris Bosh
Jamario Moon taking it to the hoop! (check out the fan in the front row in awe!) Watch for him in Saturday's dunk competition against Dwight Howard. I think it could be those two in the finals...
udaman
Wannabe Storage Freak
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 1,209
So who will be the innovative leader...like Apple:rotfl: and start a 'something random picture thread' for all of these 'drifting' posts on both this PnS & the dSLR thread???
That aside, all the new 24-28mm wide-angle PnS digicams need to be reviewed, as they interest me more than 6x or greater telezoom PnS.
From the title of the file in the 1st image, we could guess neat image & ISO 1600, along with some PS USM applied? Shows classic sensor noise of the tiny sensors in PnS. Sigma has of course their fixed near WA lens APS Foveon sensor PnS coming out soon at only MSRP of $1k!
That image would have come out much nicer with a D300 @6.4k ISO, probably could have eliminated motion blur. Would have the same noise @12.8/25.6k ISO on the D3, but you could use any lens you want and higher shutter speeds, negating the need for IS lenses/sensors. ...course Tannin would point out that the D3 is only 12MP, so you'd better have the right lens, cause you'd be limited in your ability to crop/digizoom in post (how did all those pros ever make a living with the measly 11MP Canon 1Ds??? ).
Then I was thinking, if Kodak can get the costs down, by adapting the 1.4µ pixel tech to larger sensors...heh, a FF would come out at ~440MP, a 6x7cm medium format could go into GP territory...w00t. Mean while, SuperC is probably still thinking about being a gigolo to have more sex ;0
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0802/08020602kodaktruesense.asp
That aside, all the new 24-28mm wide-angle PnS digicams need to be reviewed, as they interest me more than 6x or greater telezoom PnS.
From the title of the file in the 1st image, we could guess neat image & ISO 1600, along with some PS USM applied? Shows classic sensor noise of the tiny sensors in PnS. Sigma has of course their fixed near WA lens APS Foveon sensor PnS coming out soon at only MSRP of $1k!
That image would have come out much nicer with a D300 @6.4k ISO, probably could have eliminated motion blur. Would have the same noise @12.8/25.6k ISO on the D3, but you could use any lens you want and higher shutter speeds, negating the need for IS lenses/sensors. ...course Tannin would point out that the D3 is only 12MP, so you'd better have the right lens, cause you'd be limited in your ability to crop/digizoom in post (how did all those pros ever make a living with the measly 11MP Canon 1Ds???
).Then I was thinking, if Kodak can get the costs down, by adapting the 1.4µ pixel tech to larger sensors...heh, a FF would come out at ~440MP, a 6x7cm medium format could go into GP territory...w00t. Mean while, SuperC is probably still thinking about being a gigolo to have more sex ;0
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0802/08020602kodaktruesense.asp
e_dawg
Storage Freak
Neat Image, yes. USM in Photoshop, yes. ISO 1600? Yeah, I wish. That was ISO 400. Anything above 400 is rather useless on a point & shoot unless it's from a Fuji 6 MP sensor.
Yeah, of course a D300 or D3 at 6400-25,600 ISO would be nicer, but that's a silly comparison. Anyone can get some decent pics from a D300 at super high ISO with a f/2.8 lens using its 6-8 fps burst capability.
The whole point of these pics was to show that you can get decent quality ACTION / SPORTS shots from a compact P&S despite:
* being limited to 400 ISO realistically
* having to rely on slow contrast-detect auto focus in mediocre lighting
* a lens that has a max aperture of f/4.8 at the long end
* a shutter lag of over 1 second
* the sequential shooting speed being measured in seconds per frame, not frames per second
And besides, a point & shoot is all you're usually allowed to bring into the game. They tend to frown upon semi-pro dSLR setups.
Yeah, of course a D300 or D3 at 6400-25,600 ISO would be nicer, but that's a silly comparison. Anyone can get some decent pics from a D300 at super high ISO with a f/2.8 lens using its 6-8 fps burst capability.
The whole point of these pics was to show that you can get decent quality ACTION / SPORTS shots from a compact P&S despite:
* being limited to 400 ISO realistically
* having to rely on slow contrast-detect auto focus in mediocre lighting
* a lens that has a max aperture of f/4.8 at the long end
* a shutter lag of over 1 second
* the sequential shooting speed being measured in seconds per frame, not frames per second
And besides, a point & shoot is all you're usually allowed to bring into the game. They tend to frown upon semi-pro dSLR setups.
Thanks e_dawg! - these are outstanding imo, and in particular they go to show the usability and convenience of RAW files in a small digicam like the A710.
(This is possible with the CHDK "hack" mentioned earlier in this thread, more info on http://chdk.wikia.com/CHDK and new grounds breaking every day on http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php)
Problem with these "unofficial" RAW files is of course that they are not supported by the major converters from Canon or Adobe, and you are dependant on open-source programs like dcraw and its derivates like Raw Therapee for conversion.
E_dawg, you have often commended Raw Therapee - just recently a new version came out (2.3), how do you like it? I just started with RAW files on the A710 myself, and would like to know about your present workflow with this great little camera
Claus
(This is possible with the CHDK "hack" mentioned earlier in this thread, more info on http://chdk.wikia.com/CHDK and new grounds breaking every day on http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php)
Problem with these "unofficial" RAW files is of course that they are not supported by the major converters from Canon or Adobe, and you are dependant on open-source programs like dcraw and its derivates like Raw Therapee for conversion.
E_dawg, you have often commended Raw Therapee - just recently a new version came out (2.3), how do you like it? I just started with RAW files on the A710 myself, and would like to know about your present workflow with this great little camera
Claus
e_dawg
Storage Freak
Welcome, nikopol.
You know what? I didn't even know RT 2.3 was out already. Naturally, as soon as you mentioned that, I downloaded it and tried it out.
So far: it's awesome! The new features are excellent! Although it doesn't give you the ability to apply local adjustments like Photoshop and Capture NX do, globally, it does a heck of a job!
In fact, it saves me a lot of time and allows me to bypass Photoshop sometimes when all i really wanted to use it for was to rebuild my colour channels in poorly balanced light (usually need to when dealing with underexposed/noisy red-deficient incandescent or red and blue-deficient fluorescent). If you can't tell, I love the new channel mixer feature.
Local contrast and deconvolution are nice additions too.
You know what? I didn't even know RT 2.3 was out already. Naturally, as soon as you mentioned that, I downloaded it and tried it out.
So far: it's awesome! The new features are excellent! Although it doesn't give you the ability to apply local adjustments like Photoshop and Capture NX do, globally, it does a heck of a job!
In fact, it saves me a lot of time and allows me to bypass Photoshop sometimes when all i really wanted to use it for was to rebuild my colour channels in poorly balanced light (usually need to when dealing with underexposed/noisy red-deficient incandescent or red and blue-deficient fluorescent). If you can't tell, I love the new channel mixer feature.
Local contrast and deconvolution are nice additions too.
udaman
Wannabe Storage Freak
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 1,209
As much as I like the 710is for it's feature set, it's just too thick to be a truly pocketable digicam. Sure I could get by with the extra 13mm / 0.5in 'girth', but it would be much better for me and others if they could some how get it down to only <1in/25mm thick.
For now I'm dreaming of a possible (not very likely) trip to Hong Kong at the end of May (really lousy time of year to visit, given I hate hot weather above 80F, and with a purple passion hate humidity levels greater than 40%...which are both greatly exceeded in HK except for the winter months ). Just a quickie and would depend on getting free lodging at a private appt.
If it comes out in the beginning of May, I could possibly fork over $500 (was the price of the less capable Canon TX1 last year), for the new *gulp* 10MP, but can it zoom in HD Quicktime movie capture mode,
Panny Lumix DMC-FX500 25-125mm Leica design lens (finally!, yeah I know the Ricoh R9 does 28-200mm, actually shocked to see dpreview with a Ricoh Caprio series review:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricohr8/
, but I can definitely use the 25mm wider angle more). LOl, a "high ISO" mode for 1600-6400, with that lousy Venus IP...I shudder to see how soft and detail lacking those captures are.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0803/08031802panasonicfx500.asp
Says it has A/S priority & manual modes (not sure what 'manual means') and it's claimed to have different iris for finer aperture adjustment. Hope for early comprehensive reviews.
For now I'm dreaming of a possible (not very likely) trip to Hong Kong at the end of May (really lousy time of year to visit, given I hate hot weather above 80F, and with a purple passion hate humidity levels greater than 40%...which are both greatly exceeded in HK except for the winter months
). Just a quickie and would depend on getting free lodging at a private appt.If it comes out in the beginning of May, I could possibly fork over $500 (was the price of the less capable Canon TX1 last year), for the new *gulp* 10MP, but can it zoom in HD Quicktime movie capture mode,
Panny Lumix DMC-FX500 25-125mm Leica design lens (finally!, yeah I know the Ricoh R9 does 28-200mm, actually shocked to see dpreview with a Ricoh Caprio series review:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricohr8/
, but I can definitely use the 25mm wider angle more). LOl, a "high ISO" mode for 1600-6400, with that lousy Venus IP...I shudder to see how soft and detail lacking those captures are.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0803/08031802panasonicfx500.asp
Says it has A/S priority & manual modes (not sure what 'manual means') and it's claimed to have different iris for finer aperture adjustment. Hope for early comprehensive reviews.
e_dawg
Storage Freak
Don't even bother with Panasonic or Ricoh if you want good quality at medium or high ISO. The sensors are noisy, and their in-camera NR algorithms are designed around the principle "no detail gets left behind".
When interviewed, Panasonic and Ricoh engineers admitted that "we find it incredibly sad that neighbouring pixels don't get to know each other usually... we felt that it was our duty to eliminate segregation in pixel society and unite adjacent pixels of colour. Red, green, blue -- it doesn't matter. Fundamentally, on the inside, pixels are all the same. It doesn't make sense to judge them by the colour of their RGB value."
When asked whether this blurring of pixel lines was positive on global image quality, they remarked that "everyone is getting really sensitive these days... people have very high expectations of international standards (ISO). It's during these times when protests and noise come to the forefront. We feel that the only solution here is integration and working together to transform a community of individual pixels into one big family where everyone is equal and selfless, where one strives to give up one's individual nature and blend in with their fellow neighbours."
Hence, Panasonic's Venus Engine was designed, and Ricoh followed suit with their Smooth Imaging Engine III -- both companies trying to outdo each other when it comes to blurring the lines between neighbouring pixels.
When interviewed, Panasonic and Ricoh engineers admitted that "we find it incredibly sad that neighbouring pixels don't get to know each other usually... we felt that it was our duty to eliminate segregation in pixel society and unite adjacent pixels of colour. Red, green, blue -- it doesn't matter. Fundamentally, on the inside, pixels are all the same. It doesn't make sense to judge them by the colour of their RGB value."
When asked whether this blurring of pixel lines was positive on global image quality, they remarked that "everyone is getting really sensitive these days... people have very high expectations of international standards (ISO). It's during these times when protests and noise come to the forefront. We feel that the only solution here is integration and working together to transform a community of individual pixels into one big family where everyone is equal and selfless, where one strives to give up one's individual nature and blend in with their fellow neighbours."
Hence, Panasonic's Venus Engine was designed, and Ricoh followed suit with their Smooth Imaging Engine III -- both companies trying to outdo each other when it comes to blurring the lines between neighbouring pixels.
e_dawg
Storage Freak
Just wanted to put in a good word for the Fuji E900 point & shoot. It's an older model that is being phased out as we speak, but there are probably a few units left on closeout somewhere.
As you know, I'm always on the lookout for a better performing point & shoot in the hopes that one day, there will be something good enough that it can replace a dSLR when it comes to image quality and portability. The E900 was my latest attempt at making that happen.
It's got a 9 MP version of their venerable SuperCCD HR sensor, which produces considerable detail at lower ISOs. Add a 4x zoom lens and full manual controls (P/A/S/M), and you have the makings of a great enthusiast camera. But the biggest news with this camera is that it is the only Fuji compact P&S that allows you to shoot in RAW mode. Sure, the F10-F31 do a great job with low noise at high ISO, but you're limited to JPEGs only and can not avoid the in-camera noise reduction and image processing that is applied to every image. For smaller pics, it may not matter, but for larger pics and high res prints, you can see the detail lost to noise reduction and the artifacts created by strong sharpening and JPEG compression. This makes it very difficult to do any significant cropping/resizing or post-processing to the image. IMO, the only way to go with the state of most point & shoot image processing engines (except for the Sigma DP1) if you're looking for truly good image quality is to shoot RAW.
Unfortunately, due to the higher pixel density, the E900's sensor does not perform as well at high ISO as their 6 MP version found in the F10-F31 models, but it still performs better at high ISO than any of its competitors. Basically, it's gives you about a stop more sensitivity at the same noise level as most competitors, while the 6 MP version gives you a stop more on top of that. So while most point & shoots are usable up to about 400 ISO (except for Panasonic and Ricoh, of course ), the E900 can remain usable to about 800 ISO, a bit short of the F10-F31's usable 1600 ISO.
Compared to my reference A710is in RAW mode, it has similar noise at 800 ISO to my A710 at 400 ISO. So I get a stop more sensitivity at my disposal. But wait: the A710 has IS and the E900 doesn't. While IS is only useful for reducing camera shake by 1-2 stops, it does not do anything for subject movement. So IS can be quite useful in extending the low light capabilities of a camera by up to 2 stops, but that's only if your subjects don't move. I guess that applies to most pictures where people pose for you, but not so much for action pics.
The other thing to consider is that the max aperture of the E900's lens is up to half a stop slower than the A710's lens at the long end. So when it all nets out, the A710 may still be a better low light camera than the E900 for certain situations (long range telephoto, static subjects), but the E900 can be better for others (dynamic subjects like kids running around, sports, music/theatre performances).
Ultimately, the E900 doesn't represent a breakthrough in the low light performance of point & shoot cameras, but it is another option, and a leading option IMO. As the only option from Fuji that allows shooting in RAW mode and therefore, maximum image quality through post-processing, it is an important camera in the high performance point & shoot sector.
Now, I do have a couple reservations here. The biggest one is regarding the lens. As with the 3x Fujinon zoom lens in the F10-F31, this 4x zoom has significant problems with chromatic aberration and purple fringing. Lateral CA, longitudinal CA... whatever chromatic aberration you can think of, it appears in every high contrast transition. Fortunately, some of this can be corrected in post-processing, but it remains a disappointment nevertheless. Why not use a couple ED elements to combat this? It's not like we don't have the technology these days.
The other reservation that comes to mind is that it uses xD memory cards. Right up there with Sony Memory Stick as an infuriating proprietary storage format, it's slow, expensive, and limited in capacity. You can find high speed cards, but they are expensive and I don't even know if they have 2 GB high speed versions yet. If you're going to force people to use proprietary storage solutions, at least offer something with enough space and speed, let alone forcing you to pay double for the same capacity.
As you know, I'm always on the lookout for a better performing point & shoot in the hopes that one day, there will be something good enough that it can replace a dSLR when it comes to image quality and portability. The E900 was my latest attempt at making that happen.
It's got a 9 MP version of their venerable SuperCCD HR sensor, which produces considerable detail at lower ISOs. Add a 4x zoom lens and full manual controls (P/A/S/M), and you have the makings of a great enthusiast camera. But the biggest news with this camera is that it is the only Fuji compact P&S that allows you to shoot in RAW mode. Sure, the F10-F31 do a great job with low noise at high ISO, but you're limited to JPEGs only and can not avoid the in-camera noise reduction and image processing that is applied to every image. For smaller pics, it may not matter, but for larger pics and high res prints, you can see the detail lost to noise reduction and the artifacts created by strong sharpening and JPEG compression. This makes it very difficult to do any significant cropping/resizing or post-processing to the image. IMO, the only way to go with the state of most point & shoot image processing engines (except for the Sigma DP1) if you're looking for truly good image quality is to shoot RAW.
Unfortunately, due to the higher pixel density, the E900's sensor does not perform as well at high ISO as their 6 MP version found in the F10-F31 models, but it still performs better at high ISO than any of its competitors. Basically, it's gives you about a stop more sensitivity at the same noise level as most competitors, while the 6 MP version gives you a stop more on top of that. So while most point & shoots are usable up to about 400 ISO (except for Panasonic and Ricoh, of course
), the E900 can remain usable to about 800 ISO, a bit short of the F10-F31's usable 1600 ISO.Compared to my reference A710is in RAW mode, it has similar noise at 800 ISO to my A710 at 400 ISO. So I get a stop more sensitivity at my disposal. But wait: the A710 has IS and the E900 doesn't. While IS is only useful for reducing camera shake by 1-2 stops, it does not do anything for subject movement. So IS can be quite useful in extending the low light capabilities of a camera by up to 2 stops, but that's only if your subjects don't move. I guess that applies to most pictures where people pose for you, but not so much for action pics.
The other thing to consider is that the max aperture of the E900's lens is up to half a stop slower than the A710's lens at the long end. So when it all nets out, the A710 may still be a better low light camera than the E900 for certain situations (long range telephoto, static subjects), but the E900 can be better for others (dynamic subjects like kids running around, sports, music/theatre performances).
Ultimately, the E900 doesn't represent a breakthrough in the low light performance of point & shoot cameras, but it is another option, and a leading option IMO. As the only option from Fuji that allows shooting in RAW mode and therefore, maximum image quality through post-processing, it is an important camera in the high performance point & shoot sector.
Now, I do have a couple reservations here. The biggest one is regarding the lens. As with the 3x Fujinon zoom lens in the F10-F31, this 4x zoom has significant problems with chromatic aberration and purple fringing. Lateral CA, longitudinal CA... whatever chromatic aberration you can think of, it appears in every high contrast transition. Fortunately, some of this can be corrected in post-processing, but it remains a disappointment nevertheless. Why not use a couple ED elements to combat this? It's not like we don't have the technology these days.
The other reservation that comes to mind is that it uses xD memory cards. Right up there with Sony Memory Stick as an infuriating proprietary storage format, it's slow, expensive, and limited in capacity. You can find high speed cards, but they are expensive and I don't even know if they have 2 GB high speed versions yet. If you're going to force people to use proprietary storage solutions, at least offer something with enough space and speed, let alone forcing you to pay double for the same capacity.
udaman
Wannabe Storage Freak
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 1,209
Kind of makes you wonder, why did they do front illumination in the first place as it seems bassackwards to me!
Sony develops back-illuminated CMOS image sensor, realizing high picture quality, nearly twofold sensitivity(*1) and low noise
http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1213308645.html
Hmm, the potential applications, imagine if they have a secret new 24MP sensor based on this tech that Sony will put into the A900, the Canon, Nikon, and Fuji S2 Pro killer. (not withstanding lens systems, detail, details )...though I imagine the benefits would be much less dramatic for pixel size 3x that of what is being developed currently. Could make for some outstanding improvements on cell phone/smart phone devices.
But this type of technology could provide better than Fuji F30/31d IQ for 6MP, at the now 'standard' ridiculous 12MP PnS sensors...would make PnS cams a much more palatable alternative to bulky dSLR's, for many that are buying 'entry level' dSLR's and never really use the controls or lenses available on those.
I was so hoping the Panasonic FX500 would be a decent pocketable <1in/25mm thick PnS camera...such that I was going to buy it, what with a luxurious 25-125mm 5x Leica branded zoom, AP & SP controls, HD video (still no zoom capability? well that makes it almost useless for video). I still might get it, but I'm sure I'll love/hate it too.
I know it's not the same camera, but the FX35 was released about the same time, probably uses identical sensor & Venus IV IP, so expect same poor results.
Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX35
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/FX35/FX35A.HTM
Sony develops back-illuminated CMOS image sensor, realizing high picture quality, nearly twofold sensitivity(*1) and low noise
http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1213308645.html
Hmm, the potential applications, imagine if they have a secret new 24MP sensor based on this tech that Sony will put into the A900, the Canon, Nikon, and Fuji S2 Pro killer. (not withstanding lens systems, detail, details
)...though I imagine the benefits would be much less dramatic for pixel size 3x that of what is being developed currently. Could make for some outstanding improvements on cell phone/smart phone devices.But this type of technology could provide better than Fuji F30/31d IQ for 6MP, at the now 'standard' ridiculous 12MP PnS sensors...would make PnS cams a much more palatable alternative to bulky dSLR's, for many that are buying 'entry level' dSLR's and never really use the controls or lenses available on those.
I was so hoping the Panasonic FX500 would be a decent pocketable <1in/25mm thick PnS camera...such that I was going to buy it, what with a luxurious 25-125mm 5x Leica branded zoom, AP & SP controls, HD video (still no zoom capability? well that makes it almost useless for video). I still might get it, but I'm sure I'll love/hate it too
.I know it's not the same camera, but the FX35 was released about the same time, probably uses identical sensor & Venus IV IP, so expect same poor results
.Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX35
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/FX35/FX35A.HTM
e_dawg
Storage Freak
Now, now, LM. Let's not be too picky when we need all the advancements we can get when it comes to getting cleaner signals out of tiny sensors in compact P&S digicams. If we can improve 2/3 of a stop every year or two, we may actually have a decently performing P&S sensor in 3-5 years.
udaman
Wannabe Storage Freak
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 1,209
And maybe this could be what improves the IQ on the 2x crop factor Oly dSLR's, which don't have the greatest IQ at present due to using smaller sensors...think they could do a 24MP sensor in the present Oly format, that would almost be as sucky as a PnS 12MP is now???
Maybe, or more likely they will simply make the pixels and sensors snmaller and cheaper.
A distinct possibility LM, and for the world of amatuer photogs, I say that is great. Gives more people the chance to record moments that would otherwise be missed. I'm all for the $100 laptop too.
Still the possibility of improving cell phone & smart phone cams to something close to PnS quality would mean you could just take a cell phone, slip in your pocket and have one less thing to worry about, get lost or stolen on a vacation/business trip, where lugging around a dSLR is not practical, and you could avoid having to take a PnS with you altogether. Have any of you seen how horrid cell phone vids, being submitted by the general public, to news organizations are; worse than getting seasick watching the Blair Witch Project :rotfl:???
I just want a compact P/S that can produce better results than a film P/S from ~15 years ago and have some reasonable functionality. DSLRs reached that point with the 1Ds in late 2002. Digital P/S seems to be going in the wrong direction both in image quality and functionality.
e_dawg
Storage Freak
Yes, good point. It's quite disappointing, although there is some hope with the Sigma DP1 and the zoom version of it coming out... eventually. Everybody's watching Sigma like a hawk and will take notice if their P&S turn out to be successful. Unfortunately, the DP1 hasn't exactly been a resounding success, and the lack of a zoom lens is a limiting factor for lots of people (me included). I really like the images out of it, though, despite the general dislike for the out-of-camera JPEGs.
Personally, I will definitely buy the zoom lens version of the DP1 when it comes out and really hope it catches on with the public. IMO, it will be one of the most significant camera launches in recent history, as its success will dictate the future direction of P&S technology. If it does well, our dream of high image quality P&S cameras will come true.
Personally, I will definitely buy the zoom lens version of the DP1 when it comes out and really hope it catches on with the public. IMO, it will be one of the most significant camera launches in recent history, as its success will dictate the future direction of P&S technology. If it does well, our dream of high image quality P&S cameras will come true.
e_dawg
Storage Freak
Ah, yes. Contax and their T and G series... Beautiful design, fantastic Zeiss lenses. I lusted after a G2 system for a while before I decided to get a Nikon F70 (N70 in the US) due to limited funds.
Come to think of it, I always had a thing for Contax... even had a Contax T series film camera at one point... well, actually a Yashica T4 Super with the spectacular Zeiss 35/3.5 Tessar T* lens. It produced some of the sharpest pics I have ever taken in my life even to this date. Sometimes, i regret ever returning it for a Pentax Espio Zoom due to its lack of zoom capability and mediocre flash performance.
Now that I think about it, i had 2 Contax-ish point & shoot film cameras. The first 35 mm camera I ever had was a Kyocera P&S in the late 80's with, not surprisingly, a Zeiss 35 mm Tessar T* lens (notice a pattern here?) I remember deciding between a Ricoh and the Kyocera at the shop back then. The Ricoh had more features but the Kyocera had the Zeiss lens. I remember the salesman and my dad both advising me to choose the Kyocera for the Zeiss glass. Boy, were they right!
To this day, i still yearn for those fantastic Zeiss images. Almost bought a ZF for my Nikons last year, but decided against it because I really don't like manual focus primes except for studio type situations. When will they ever make an AF ZF lens?
Come to think of it, I always had a thing for Contax... even had a Contax T series film camera at one point... well, actually a Yashica T4 Super with the spectacular Zeiss 35/3.5 Tessar T* lens. It produced some of the sharpest pics I have ever taken in my life even to this date. Sometimes, i regret ever returning it for a Pentax Espio Zoom due to its lack of zoom capability and mediocre flash performance.
Now that I think about it, i had 2 Contax-ish point & shoot film cameras. The first 35 mm camera I ever had was a Kyocera P&S in the late 80's with, not surprisingly, a Zeiss 35 mm Tessar T* lens (notice a pattern here?) I remember deciding between a Ricoh and the Kyocera at the shop back then. The Ricoh had more features but the Kyocera had the Zeiss lens. I remember the salesman and my dad both advising me to choose the Kyocera for the Zeiss glass. Boy, were they right!
To this day, i still yearn for those fantastic Zeiss images. Almost bought a ZF for my Nikons last year, but decided against it because I really don't like manual focus primes except for studio type situations. When will they ever make an AF ZF lens?
paugie
Storage is cool
I use an Oly C750UZ 4mp camera. Very good images. And then again, I may not actually know what a good image is. Has full manual controls. ISO 50 and 100 are good but ISO 200 noisy and one should never use ISO 400.
Still my only real rant is its inability to focus in low light. One can not complain about its shutter lag, it's a point and shoot isn't it.
I have been disappointed with the lack of "goodness" in my shots. These are the only ones I can bother to show from around 600 photos of a youth camp last May.
Ever since I first held a camera (1967) I thought I was fairly good at taking people pictures. I even have contemplated buying an entry level DSLR (chosen a model even - Pentax K100D Super) But taking a hard look at my photographs, I see no oomph at all.
Sigh!
Well, any excuse for a post.
Still my only real rant is its inability to focus in low light. One can not complain about its shutter lag, it's a point and shoot isn't it.
I have been disappointed with the lack of "goodness" in my shots. These are the only ones I can bother to show from around 600 photos of a youth camp last May.
Ever since I first held a camera (1967) I thought I was fairly good at taking people pictures. I even have contemplated buying an entry level DSLR (chosen a model even - Pentax K100D Super) But taking a hard look at my photographs, I see no oomph at all.
Sigh!
Well, any excuse for a post.