Backup solution -- dumb idea?

[RWIndiana]

Hello everyone. I was trying to find a way to back up all my digital photos, and I had the idea to use a hard drive rather than optical storage, as it would be more convenient, faster, and just easier to do. However, I was told on another forum (on no uncertain terms) that this is a brainless idea as a hard drive can go bad just sitting on the shelf, and they told me to stick with the DVDs I am currently using as backup.

Just wondering what the "real" experts' opinions are.



Rod

 

[Will Rickards]

Hard drives for backup are easier, faster and possibly less expensive per GB.
I wouldn't count them as an archival backup though. They are more along the lines of a hot spare. If the data is on your main hard drive and your backup hard drive, if one goes down you still have the data. Hard drives might be considered to be more fragile than optical media since more things can go wrong as they depend on electronics and motors to do their work.

However, optical storage has its own limitations. CDs and DVDs can 'go bad'. Sometimes there are defects in the media that don't exhibit themselves for a while. So you could have stored your data just fine but come back in a year and find it unreadable. Then there are lifetime of the media concerns. There was a whole thread about that here a while ago I think.

The moral of the story is to keep your important data in two places. I don't think the format of the second place matters much. A DVD collection or a large backup hard drive both work.

Personally, I've been using backup hard drives. Originally in the machine itself and more recently in an external enclosure. It is easier for me to manage one large hard drive than CD/DVDs strewn about the place.

 

[Fushigi]

What Will said.

Anything can go bad just sitting on the shelf. DVDs & CDs can be subject to rot under some conditions. A hard drive will be more subject to wear/tear during power on/off cycles but I would think it would be no less stable when 'on the shelf'. Optical media withstands most accidental drops w/o problems; a hard drive is more fragile. Optical withstands tempurature changes better.

How about both? Back up to HD for your daily/weekly work and back up that drive to DVD on occasion. Say monthly or quarterly or whenever you have a full DVD's worth (or several full discs worth if you produce a lot) of material.

Personally, I prefer tape. But the price of tape technology is pretty steep for consumer-level work, especially for something decent like LTO.

 

[Buck]

I will second using a hard drive to store a duplicate set of your data. I’m in the habit of creating regular updates to the duplicate set (perhaps nightly, or on the fly with RAID 1). Then, I would use optical media to create backup sets for archiving weekly or monthly, preferably creating two sets, each stored in separate locations. For larger projects, I store all of the data on a RAID 5 array and then create backup sets onto optical media as I had mentioned.

This idea that hard drives go bad after sitting on the shelf for a few months is way off. Granted drives are designed to be used, not stored, but they do a pretty good job of keeping their magnetic bits in order after quite some time. The down side to using a hard drive as storage is the process of handling the drive; hard drives are not portable devices and dislike electro-static discharges.

 

[RWIndiana]

I agree.
Here is my current setup: 1 computer with all photos accessible and viewable, one server in basement synchronized with picture drive on computer 1 (so pictures can be accessed by all computers even if comp. 1 is off), DVD backup of pictures stored in safe for fire protection.
What I'm thinking of doing is simply using an external HD for backup and storing that in the fire safe. I would still have a copy in three locations, just not with optical media. Of course, if there is a fire and the two unprotected drives are destroyed, and the drive in the fire safe for some reason locks up, then I would be in trouble. But chances of that are what?

 

[RWIndiana]

Thanks Buck and Fushigi for your input as well. I don't produce an incredible amount of data, as I only save the raw photos in the safe.
Basically, I've been doing what you suggested Fushigi. Back-up to the server regularly, and to DVD roughly each month. It's not so bad really, but I'm always looking for shortcuts.

 

[Buck]

I agree.
Here is my current setup: 1 computer with all photos accessible and viewable, one server in basement synchronized with picture drive on computer 1 (so pictures can be accessed by all computers even if comp. 1 is off), DVD backup of pictures stored in safe for fire protection.
What I'm thinking of doing is simply using an external HD for backup and storing that in the fire safe. I would still have a copy in three locations, just not with optical media. Of course, if there is a fire and the two unprotected drives are destroyed, and the drive in the fire safe for some reason locks up, then I would be in trouble. But chances of that are what?

I would skip the external drive bit, and stick with DVDs for the safe. You might also think about keeping a DVD offsite, such as in a safe deposit box.

 

[Handruin]

If you wanted to go the route of an external drive, take a look at a tool called Second Copy 2000. This tool can help you synchronize your files onto a portable solution such as an external hard drive. I use it to backup my files to my server and it works great.

 

[Bozo]

I use a removable hard drive for backups. The hard drive can be stred in a different location then.

Bozo :mrgrn:

 

[sechs]

The problem with harddrives is that they contain both the mechanics and media; they are the disks and the drive. CDs and DVDs are just the disks; this makes them less susceptible to failure.

What you're doing now (two online copies and an offline backup to DVD) is extremely reasonable.

 

[Buck]

The problem with harddrives is that they contain both the mechanics and media; they are the disks and the drive. CDs and DVDs are just the disks; this makes them less susceptible to failure.

Plus you have added electronics to interface 1394 or USB with ATA. In my opinion, external drives give a false sense of security.

 

[Handruin]

...external drives give a false sense of security.

I find it to be better than nothing...especially when so many people have no backup strategy. This topic would make for a nice article on home data protection on a budget.

 

[yeti]

Interesting discussion...

I would use an external drive, as it is relatively portable and meant to survive some ESD. Bits don't get erased by Brownian movement before at least 5 years, but there is a small risk. As in all back-up methods one important aspect is to verify regularly that the data is still in good shape. This is valid for DVDs as well as for HDDs, or tapes...
If you're afraid of the bit erasures, you should copy the entire drive at least once every other year

... my 2 cents

Yéti

 

[Buck]

...external drives give a false sense of security.

I find it to be better than nothing...especially when so many people have no backup strategy.

You would be much better off with another internal drive.

 

[mubs]

I have two drives in my system. All the data is on drive B. I've downloaded, installed and set up SyncBack. Before I shutdown for the night, I just run a script that syncs my data to a backup folder on drive A. I also periodically burn DVD+RWs with the data.

 

[Will Rickards]

You would be much better off with another internal drive.

Let's assume this statement was made in general and not specific to Handruin.
I would disagree for the following reasons.
1) an external drive can be used to backup more than one machine without requiring the other machines to be on.
2) most people won't crack open their cases to install another internal drive
3) an external drive can be disconnected from power when not in use.
4) an external drive can be isolated on its own surge strip or even its own household circuit.
5) an external drive can be disconnected from the computer when not in use.
6) external drives are portable to an extent.

Any advantage in terms of data transfer speed an internal drive would have are far outweighed by the versatility of an external drive. Now a removable drive cage may be the best of both worlds.

I have my drive on a surge strip that I turn off when I don't need the stuff on it, like my printer, scanner, battery charger. When I get around to installing my new USB/firewire card, I'll be plugging it into the usb hub which is disconnected when not in use.

 

[Will Rickards]

Backup Strategies by Failure Type

I think a discussion of what failure you are protecting against is in order.

One backup, online. (second internal drive)
This method protects against intrinsic hardware failure of the main drive.
It will not protect against an electrical surge taking out the machine.
What is the most likely way a hard drive is going to die?

One backup, offline (backup drive/optical media)
Here you are also protected against electrical problems to the machine.
It will not protect you against other failures such as fire or water damage.
If the backup drive or media is in the same place, you'll lose both.

Now most people don't go the next step. Although most businesses should.
Two backups, one online or offline and one offsite.
Unless both backup devices/media fail this protects you against most failures.

 

[ddrueding]

I just took one of my growing clients to something similar.

They now have a dedicated backup server. Here's how it works:

Each server has a script that executes at 9PM every night copying any data on the machine to another internal drive that is shared with the backup server.

At midnight, the backup server grabs a copy each server's share to it's own RAID1 array. It maintains 8 days worth of backups before overwriting.

Each Thursday, the most recent backup is copied to an external USB drive which is swapped for another by the CEO. He keeps the one not connected in his fireproof safe at home.

I want the system to verify the integrety of the previous backup before overwriting the USB drive just to be sure it's working, but haven't implemented that yet.

I don't see how DVDs or Tapes would be any more secure, or could possibly be less expensive or easier to use.

 

[Buck]

Let's assume this statement was made in general and not specific to Handruin.
I would disagree for the following reasons.
1) an external drive can be used to backup more than one machine without requiring the other machines to be on.
2) most people won't crack open their cases to install another internal drive
3) an external drive can be disconnected from power when not in use.
4) an external drive can be isolated on its own surge strip or even its own household circuit.
5) an external drive can be disconnected from the computer when not in use.
6) external drives are portable to an extent.

Any advantage in terms of data transfer speed an internal drive would have are far outweighed by the versatility of an external drive. Now a removable drive cage may be the best of both worlds.

I have my drive on a surge strip that I turn off when I don't need the stuff on it, like my printer, scanner, battery charger. When I get around to installing my new USB/firewire card, I'll be plugging it into the usb hub which is disconnected when not in use.

Essentially, most of your arguments revolve around one fundamental point, #6. Nonetheless, external drives with 3.5” hard drives in them are not designed as portable devices. They are used in this way, but they also have a high failure rate for this reason. The best reason for purchasing an external drive is as you outlined with point #2. External drives are an easy way to add extra storage space. Now, if you move into the mobile drive market, and the external drives made around those products, you end up with a more robust and reliable device that is truly portable. Unfortunately, you also end with less storage space. With this sort of product, I would wholeheartedly agree with all six points you mentioned, and would endorse it as a backup solution that you could store away in a fire safe (although optical media would still be better). In my experience, and after talking with drive manufacturers about those bulky external kits outfitted with 3.5” drives, I would never recommend one.

 

[Fushigi]

Re: Backup Strategies by Failure Type

Now most people don't go the next step. Although most businesses should.
Two backups, one online or offline and one offsite.
Unless both backup devices/media fail this protects you against most failures.

And if the business is publicly traded or is subject to regulatory issues due to the industry, the backup requirements can be staggering.

The midrange systems I manage have the following backup strategy:

1. Saturday morning the entire system is backed up: OS, apps, data. These backups are retained for 7 weeks.
2. Every night of the week other than Saturday all data, security info (to catch changed passwords & new profiles), and all other changed objects since the last full backup are saved. The nightly is thus cumulative for the week. These are retained for 35 days.
3. On the 1st of every month, the entire system is backed up. This backup is maintained for 13 months.
4. On Jan 1 of every year, the entire system is backed up. This backup is retained forever.
5. Starting later this year, we will also journal our databases to our DR system to keep the production data live in case a DR situation arises.

All backups are taken offsite within a few hours of completion and are not returned on site until the tapes are due to be reused. We are not told where the tapes go and the offsite service has more than one location, thus no employee can sabotage the backups that are offsite.

Whenever we move from one tape format to another, like AIT to LTO, all existing monthly & yearly backups are copied to tapes in the new format. As we tend to change/upgrade formats every 2-3 years, this also serves as the data 'refresh' that is recommended for tapes.

As mentioned above, it's worse if you have compliance issues. Sarbanes-Oxley and other regulations force firms to store all communications & logs for several years. That means all incoming & outgoing email messages (potentially including spam), IM conversations, etc. Storage vendors should all be doing quite good right now.