Bankrupcy: who do you dream about?

[Tannin]

OK guys, we all hate Microsoft the most, that goes without saying. But just imagine you wake up tommorow and read a headline in your morning paper:

Computer Industry Giant to Close Doors! Dreadful product quality and lack of customer service blamed for dramatic collapse.

So, lay it on the line: which is the company that makes hardware products that are so bad that you dream about seeing them meet the fate of Micropolis? Or maybe it's their driver software that sucks the most. Or their customer non-support.

Write-in votes welcome.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Iomega! IMO their Zip products aren't worth in the era of DVD-writing...

 

[Tannin]

That was quite the toughest decision I've had to make in a long, long time. I voted for Compaq in the end, but why did I not have the sense to include an "all of the above" option?

Iomega, yes. A big-time crappola company. How can I possibly not vote for Iomega's timely demise? But then, how can I possibly not vote for PC Chips? Or Hewlett-Packard? Or Compaq?

Stupid damn poll. Can Tea vote?

 

[Buck]

My first vote had to be for Compaq. There ultra proprietary machines rub me the wrong, and then to top it off, they're built like e-machines - crap! At least HP has the decency to build higher quality machines.

BR

 

[CougTek]

Rambus. And my wish will be granted I'm sure.

 

[Buck]

I can't believe my english; there instead of their - pfft!

Coug, Rambus is a snake-in-the-grass, and besides being on most peoples wish list for folding, I'd have to agree that they're probably closer in reality to an early demise then some believe. I think Intel is keeping them alive and has them by the throat. Eventually, Rambus may cease to exist and become part of Intel. Just my opinion.

BR

 

[Mercutio]

Well, I would've voted "Other", since AOL somehow didn't make the cut, but then I saw my other least-favorite company on the list, and I knew what I had to do...

And like it or not, there are some things to appreciate about microsoft, however crappy their OSes are. A great deal of standardization in the PC world should be credited to microsoft. PC "media friendliness" in general - the A/V kind - is largely due to their OSes. Microsoft did a LOT to speed the deployment of CD-ROM drives, both by making OSes and apps too big for floppies, and by releasing some really top-notch multimedia titles in the mid-nineties (Encarta is the only one left, but at the time there were a LOT) Plus they provide jobs for untold thousands of people who support their other, crappy products. And they make nice gamepads and mice.

That list is infinitely longer than the one I can come up with for AOL Time-Warner or nvidia.

 

[Tannin]

I put Nvidia on especially for you, Mercutio. I left AOL out for the same reason I left Microsoft out: they aren't really a hardware manufacturer. (Which also leaves me a nifty follow-up thread for later.)

Buck hates Compaq. But he says: "At least HP has the decency to build higher quality machines." Not any more, my friend, not any more. Ever tried to upgrade the video card in an HP i810? I have. And it was that particular event that led me to invent the now industry-standard term for extremely bad proprietary junk: "vomit box". HP vs Compaq, Pavillion vs Presario. Dam it, that particular race is too close to call.

 

[Buck]

Tannin, it's awfully kind of HP to allow for video upgrades. The Compaq iPaq with the intel i810 chipset doesn't allow for video upgrade; integraded as integraded gets. But please don't get me wrong, I would never recommend either Compaq or HP to anyone. I also prefer not doing repairs on them unless it is something easy like an HDD upgrade.

BR

 

[Tannin]

Ahh, but that's exactly the point Buck: maybe it is theoretically possible to upgrade the video on a Pavillion i810, but I was trying to put in what is probably the most all-round compatible 3D card ever made, a Voodoo III PCI, I'm not completely stupid, and I spent ~4 hours on it ... and failed utterly. Serious vomit there.

They have even managed to make HD upgrades difficult sometimes: hidden diagnostic partitions, stupid cable select jumpering, pull out the whole damn motherboard just to swap the hard drive, even non-standard bloody screws!

Damnit! Tea wants to vote too but she can't decide between HP and Iomega.

 

[Groltz]

ELSA Goes Bankrupt, NVIDIA Loses European Market

 

[Buck]

She is pretty indecisive, but when it comes to men and alcohol, it doesn't seem to matter. Maybe she should pick HP with the notion that one day HP with buy IOMEGA, I mean they'll merge?

BR

 

[Mercutio]

Personally, I'd hate to lose Compaq or HP, just because there has been such a history of great stuff from both, even if neither is the innovator of years' past.
Given the choice, though, I'm glad that its HP that's buying Compaq. Better stuff (HP makes fantastic enterprise switches and unbelievable high-end imaging stuff) comes from that one than from the big red Q.

Iomega? Hm. Yup. Crap. Click, click, click. Easy to avoid, at least.

Rambus? Evil, evil, evil, but at least their wrangling hasn't had much effect on me personally.

PC Chips/ECS? Um... well, unfortunately they own SuperMicro. Does SuperMicro suck yet?

 

[Mercutio]

ELSA Goes Bankrupt, NVIDIA Loses European Market

I am doing the dance of capitalist superiority even as we speak.

 

[Buck]

Here is my new red Q slogan:

iPaq, uPaq, we all Paq for iCrap!

 

[Corvair]

...PC Chips/ECS? Um... well, unfortunately they own SuperMicro. Does SuperMicro suck yet?

Eh... What are you talking about? Supermicro owns Supermicro and always has since the early 90s, when they burst onto the higher-end mobo market kicking asses and taking names.

PC Chips is a different company in Taiwan that makes various silicon and cheap mobos for people who don't care what they get, mostly in the form of no-name mobos for shady merchants and vomit box. They do make some branded PC Chips mobos, but once again nothing special whatsoever.

Does this look at all like a mobo that PC Chips would ever produce?

http://www.supermicro.com/PRODUCT/MotherBoards/GC_LE/P4DL6.htm

Dual P4, PCI-X slots, 16 GB DDR, etc...

...or...

http://www.supermicro.com/PRODUCT/MotherBoards/E7500/P4DP6.htm

 

[Corvair]

The Compaq iPaq with the intel i810 chipset doesn't allow for video upgrade; integraded as integraded gets. But please don't get me wrong, I would never recommend either Compaq or HP to anyone...

You're talking about their consumer boxes. If you ever *had* to buy a Compaq consumer box, absolutely steer away from their non-Intel boxes. They are all bottom-dweller boxes made by various Taiwanese outfits. The Intel-based boxes seem to be considerably better, though they are also US$200 ~ US$400 more expensive. I don't care much for their clever (proprietary) chassis designs. They and a few others, such as Apple, aren't doing themselves any favours by having special chassis designs where they really aren't needed, as with desktop workstations. The other desktop line that Compaq makes, the DeskPro, has always been a solid machine, though overpriced if you are a non-corporate buyer purchasing just one system at a time.

As far as hindsight goes, Compaq should have never jumped into the "consumer" computer marketplace. Their core competencies have always been in the technical and enterprise markets.

 

[Corvair]

...Eventually, Rambus may cease to exist and become part of Intel. Just my opinion.

It will never happen because Intel will NEVER get back into the RAM business in any way, even if it's IP. If an Infineon or Micron doesn't merge with Rambus, then Rambs will simply choose to shrink itself as needed.

 

[Corvair]

If you had to name all the above that have had a positively NEGATIVE influence on the industry, it would have to be *only* Rambus and Iomega. Both of these corporations have shown unbelievable levels of litigious effrontery over the years that may never be equalled.

 

[Tea]

Actually, the only semi-decent Compaq consumer boxes I've seen for quite a few years, possibly ever seen, were AMD-based. They had one of their Presario boxes that was made by Mitac and almost standard. (!) Mini-tower, VIA MVP4 chipset, half-OK soundcard embedded on the main board (better than the VIA AC97 thing), K6-2/500 CPU, and - wait for it - standard form! No AGP slot, an incredibly under-spec PSU (110 Watts, as I remember) and very ugly styling, but all standard parts and perfectly well-performed for it's age and market segment. Most un-Compac. Even the PSU was standard form and easily replaceable. OK, it was still cruddy by clone standards, but it was only a "large spit" box, not a full-grown vomit box.

Saw a couple of them. They went well.

Their consumer-level Intel crap, in contrast, is the pure, undiluted bile. If they have ever made a half-decent Intel-based consumer box, I've never seen one.

As far as hindsight goes, Compaq should have never jumped into the "consumer" computer marketplace. Their core competencies have always been in the technical and enterprise markets.

Exactly! It spelled the end of a once-great company. HP made exactly the same mistake. I hope and pray that they both go the way of their spiritual forebears in vomit: Commodore and Amstrad.

 

[Mercutio]

Lately Compaq's server equipment hasn't even been very good, either, and most of their re-branded non-PC equipment (RAID controllers, displays, KVMs, network hardware) is pathetic, too.

A bit of research on the SuperMicro bit reveals that PC Chips did not buy it but instead took over the majority of distribution of SuperMicro boards. An indelible stain nonetheless.

 

[Buck]

It will never happen because Intel will NEVER get back into the RAM business in any way, even if it's IP. If an Infineon or Micron doesn't merge with Rambus, then Rambs will simply choose to shrink itself as needed.

Corvair,

Do you think Intel would ever find an advantage in manufacturing its own memory components for it's "internet" products?

BR

 

[Corvair]

...A bit of research on the SuperMicro bit reveals that PC Chips did not buy it but instead took over the majority of distribution of SuperMicro boards. An indelible stain nonetheless.

Well, I don't exactly have a wealth of knowledge about the goings on of the PC Chips Corporation, but I faintly recall something about SiS either buying them some years ago or maybe forming a strategic partnership. Maybe PC Chips has some good expertise in the areas distribution and Super-O was looking for distribution in Asia???

Supermicro opened a second factory over in Taiwan (the first being in Silicon Valley, California) back in the late 90s to get a foot in the door of mobo manufactory in hot Hot HOT Asian marketplace and to increase mobo production overall.

 

[Corvair]

Corvair, Do you think Intel would ever find an advantage in manufacturing its own memory components for it's "internet" products?...

In the eyes of Intel leadership, and maybe reality, the advantage of in-house production of RAM would be outweighed by the many disadvantages of having an in-house RAM factory and staff. A commodity product like RAM -- which there has been an oversupply of many years now -- is always bought on the outside by companies like Intel, who are using the RAM to manufacture final-assembly type of products such as mobos, Ethernet cards, modems, etc.

Intel was BADLY burned back in the mid-1980s when the electronics marketplace went to hell in a handbasket. It was the closest Intel has ever come to going bankrupt. Fortunately though, they were selling more and more x86 processors (8088, 8086, 8087, 80286, 80287) and x86 controllers (80186) to keep themselves afloat financially. They were not selling anywhere near enough RAM to pay off the billions of dollars they had invested into manufacturing RAM and ended up just eating the whole mess because nobody wanted to acquire their RAM manufacturing operations during a bust cycle. Setting up a line for production of RAM is as expensive as setting up a line to make microprocessor wafers. RAM is very dense and hard to manufacture.

Intel DID get back into the "memory" business in sort of a roundabout way, though. They partly or wholly invented Flash Memory and have been manufacturing Flash Memory for about 8 or 9 years. Nowadays, the market for Flash Memory has softened up quite a bit compared to what it was for such a long time (i.e. -- shortages).

As for Rambus DRAM, there are indeed legitimate applications for this memory type, but just not for "typical" PC main memory.

 

[Handruin]

Slightly off-key but my choice would be "other". I choose AOL.

 

[Tannin]

So what crappy hardware do AOL make?

 

[Handruin]

So what crappy hardware do AOL make?

:sqnt:

 

[Corvair]

Lately Compaq's server equipment hasn't even been very good, either, and most of their re-branded non-PC equipment (RAID controllers, displays, KVMs, network hardware) is pathetic, too...

(At work) I haven't bought any Compaq server hardware in some years now, but I did get an evaluation unit in once about 3 years ago -- a 450 MHz Pentium2 1U-rackmount Proliant -- that was an excellent performing box for the money. What I have bought a good amount of though has been Compaq 42U-high racks. They are the nicest complete rack systems for the money.

 

[Mercutio]

In the US, it's possible to get AOL-branded keyboards, mice, surge protectors, AOL-approved telephone cables, and AOL "travel cables" which come in a retractable-case, like a measuring tape.

Does that qualify?

 

[Mercutio]

(At work) I haven't bought any Compaq server hardware in some years now, but I did get an evaluation unit in once about 3 years ago -- a 450 MHz Pentium2 1U-rackmount Proliant -- that was an excellent performing box for the money. What I have bought a good amount of though has been Compaq 42U-high racks. They are the nicest complete rack systems for the money.

You're talking about the rack itself, right? Can't say I've ever seen those.

 

[Corvair]

You're talking about the rack itself, right? Can't say I've ever seen those.

 

[CougTek]

I read the following at X-bit Laboratories.

Intel representatives officially announced at IDF that the company is going to completely give up the support of memory technologies promoted by Rambus in Intel's chipsets by the end of the year. This way, the over four-year story of cooperation between Intel and Rambus seems to have come to an end.

At present Intel offers two chipsets working with RDRAM: i850 aimed at high-performance desktops and dual-processor i860 intended for workstations. In May Intel will announce enhanced modifications of these products, aka i850E and i860E, which will be adapted for processors with 533MHz bus. These chipset are to become Intel's last products supporting RDRAM.

In the end of the year, Intel will launch a new chipset generation without RDRAM support. Placer and Granite Bay together with the already released i7500 will replace i860 and i850 in the server and workstation market. In the common desktop PC market the share of i850 chipsets will be reduced thanks to i845 family, and the launching of Springdale chipset in the end of the year will finish this process. All Intel's future solutions will support DDR SDRAM.

You probably already read it somewhere, but I have a nice feeling every time I take a glaze at this news. I just can get enough of it
:mrgrn:

 

[flagreen]

I had to vote "other" since AMD wasn't on the list. Hey, what else would you expect from some who has both RAMBUS and INTEL in his PC?

 

[Buck]

I had to vote "other" since AMD wasn't on the list. Hey, what else would you expect from some who has both RAMBUS and INTEL in his PC?

Good one Flagreen. I'm running a server off of an Intel OR840 board (dual Slot-1 PIII 667EB 256 MB RDRAM), video surveillence running on an Intel VC820 board (Slot-1 PIII 866EB 128 MB RDRAM), a printer server/workstation running on an Intel SE440BX-2 platform (Slot-1 PII 400 256 MB SDRAM), and a new server on a ECS D6VAA board (dual Socket-370 PIII 933EB 512 MB SDRAM). They (now the ECS board does too) all run non-stop without problems.

To the contrary, I sell many (and mostly) Socket-A systems that run flawlessly, but my own Tyan S2460 (dual Socket-A) still gives me problems! That's life - I really couldn't say that AMD or INTEL is better then the other when it comes to products. Costs advantages are different.

BR

 

[Handruin]

My vote for "other" still applies, but I change my selection from AOL (which I made the dumb mistake of saying) to Apple.

 

[Bozo]

Dell, IBM, and Comcrap would be my choices.

Bozo

 

[Bozo]

Add to that VIA and Apollo.

Bozo

 

[NRG = mc²]

Creative, certainly!

 

[Sol]

I read somwhere that somone is developing a new quad pumped 266DDR which will have the same bandwidth as RDRAM for about $20AU more than current DDR. With the lower latency of DDR and 333DDR already in use I can't really see anyone having any use for a more expensive slower and less common alternative. I can't say I think Intel would be too interested in acquiring Rambus f that ever comes off.

 

[Sol]

Being a video card man I have to say ATI. Nvidia are pretty bad, having just released the GForce 4 yet another iteration of a completly dead end architecture. But at least the cards work at the time of release. Realeasing a card and having peoploe buy it before you have finished the drivers is indefensable.
In an only vaugly conneced irony the new Doom3 engine is designed in such a way that only the Radeon can render each frame in a single pass, however given that Doom3 will be an OpenGL -and thats whhere the drivers are worst - that could be a very long pass, proving that Carmack is a very sad strange little man.