Bigger Drives When?

[CityK]

Well, I really don't know what to do now. According to the SR thread the 400GB 7200.8 will not be out until at least December. The 7K400 is a little hot and noisy besides being pricey. I suppose replacing the 740GD with a

Hey, what happened to my post:?

Indeed Lunar. It would seem the forum gremlins decided to cut you off in mid sentence.

 

[Mercutio]

Friends don't let friends use Western Digital.

Please Lunar, if not for us, think of the children. Think of the children.

<shudder>

(I did notice, when I was in Sam's Club on Sunday, that 2500JBs are apparently now $99. Even at that price, I'm not buying).

 

[Bookmage]

Hrm... I need a Sam's club around here....
250GB for 100$?

Price match to balance out tax and I could havea a TB raw storage for 400$

Until Samsung steps up to compete, that is a very tempting offer....

 

[Tannin]

I don't think you'll see Samsung getting into that price category, Bookmage. Their policy seems to be (over the last few years) to abandon their old bargain basement price policy of a few uears ago and concentrate on top-class quality control of sensible, mid-range drives. Price-wise, they seem to be migrating to a middle-of-the-pack position. In the long-term, my guess is that they will stay there or sneak up a fraction further.

 

[RWIndiana]

Merc don't get me started on Western Digital. I sure hope they are making them better than the one I currently have in my computer. The old Maxtor (only 15gb!!) drive I have makes the computer boot up and start programs twice as fast as my current 60gb WD drive. I only have this stupid thing because I got it cheap (I had no idea) and I needed space to grow. Even running speeddisk once a week doesn't make it come close to the other drive's performance. Not only that, since I got it, the WD drive has developed bad sectors on a regular basis and I have to run a scan every time I want to ghost so it doesn't crash. I'm just waiting for it to give out so I can get another one.
Sheesh!
Here I thought the slow performance was because of the measly 1.3ghz processor, then I found out that the real bottleneck is this pitiful Western Digital drive. Sad to think they used to be one of the best.

 

[LunarMist]

WD is not in the picture, primarily because they make nothing larger than 250GB drives. Since Seagate is returning to the 3-platter platform, I see no reason to go with WD capacity drives. Their GD series is another story. The 740GD boots amazingly fast, making my 15k.3 look sluggish in comparison.

Anyways, back to the topic. I have another issue. How is it possible format a 300-400GB drive as a single FAT32 partition? My PM 7 is limited to 256GB on FAT32. Do later versions fare bettter or is there another (Windows) utility that does the same? Thanks.

 

[Buck]

Anyways, back to the topic. I have another issue. How is it possible format a 300-400GB drive as a single FAT32 partition? My PM 7 is limited to 256GB on FAT32. Do later versions fare bettter or is there another (Windows) utility that does the same? Thanks.

FAT32? Why would you go with FAT32 for such a large partition size? FAT32 doesn't handle very large file sizes and Windows utilities puke on massive FAT32 partitions because of the disproportionate cluster sizes. NTFS is much better when scaling to this size.

 

[Buck]

WD is not in the picture, primarily because they make nothing larger than 250GB drives.

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if WD came out with a larger capacity 7200 rpm drive before Christmas. But I doubt it will be 400 GB, probably less.

 

[Mercutio]

win98's fdisk is supposed to handle whatever. You just need to use Percentages instead of raw numbers.

 

[Buck]

win98's fdisk is supposed to handle whatever. You just need to use Percentages instead of raw numbers.

Supposed to . . . try that with a drive that is larger than 137 GB and then start filling the drive with data beyond that point.

 

[LunarMist]

FAT32? Why would you go with FAT32 for such a large partition size? FAT32 doesn't handle very large file sizes and Windows utilities puke on massive FAT32 partitions because of the disproportionate cluster sizes. NTFS is much better when scaling to this size.

Back in the SR days I calculated clusters but cannot remember anything anymore. Is 256GB the maximum partition size that supports 32KB clusters? I know that there are external 300GB Maxtor drives. How are they formatted?

 

[mubs]

This page from the PCGuide may be worth reading.

Note: I am not really sure what the maximum partition size is for a FAT32 partition. I have heard various different numbers, but nobody seems to be able to produce an authoritative answer. "Officially" it is 2,048 GiB (2 TiB), but there are likely to be other limiting factors...

 

[mubs]

From the horse's (Microsoft's) mouth:

The following table compares disk and file sizes possible with each file system.

           NTFS                                 FAT                             FAT32

Recommended minimum volume size is                                   Volumes from 512 MB to 2 TB.
approximately 10 megabytes (MB).

Volumes much larger than 2           Volumes from floppy disk        In Windows XP, you can format a
terabytes (TB) are possible.         size up to 4 gigabytes (GB).    FAT32 volume up to 32 GB only.

Cannot be used on floppy disks.      Does not support domains.       Does not support domains.

File size limited only by size       Maximum file size is 2 GB.      Maximum file size is 4 GB.
of volume.

Also see this page at MS:

* The 127.5-GB limit on FAT32 volumes imposed in Windows 98 no longer applies to Windows Me. In Windows Me, using a cluster size of 32 KB, a FAT32 volume can theoretically be about 8 terabytes. However, the 32-bit fields in the partition table (and in the FAT32 boot sector) limit the size of an individual volume (regardless of file system) on a basic MBR disk using a sector size of 512 bytes to approximately 2 terabytes.

* Although Windows 2000 and Windows XP Professional can mount FAT32 volumes of any size, Windows 2000 and Windows XP Professional can format FAT32 volumes up to 32 GB only. Use NTFS to format larger volumes. For more information about the benefits of formatting Windows XP Professional volumes by using NTFS, see "Advantages of Using NTFS" earlier in this chapter.

The largest possible file for a FAT32 volume is 4 GB minus 1 byte. FAT32 contains 4 bytes per cluster in the file allocation table; FAT16 contains 2 bytes per cluster; and FAT12 contains 1.5 bytes per cluster. A FAT32 volume must have at least 65,527 clusters. For more information about clusters, see "Cluster Size" earlier in this chapter.

So I'm guessing that if you have a Win ME boot disk, you should be able to accomplish your task. I believe sites like The Ultimate Boot Disk have WinMe boot floppy images available.

 

[Buck]

Good information mubs. However, here is the problem: when creating any partition, you are not just stuck with the limitations of the file system, you are stuck with the limitations of the file system, the drivers, and the utilities for creating and formatting those partitions. For example, the actual file system for FAT32 has always had a high theoretical capacity limitation, however the implementation of this file system is always different. As the user, you become dependant on the limitations of the EIDE driver and the tool used to partition the drive. Just look at what Microsoft has done with Windows 2000 and XP as stated in the article, they have limited Disk Management (which should technically be viewed as a third-party tool and not part of the operating system) to 32 GB FAT32 partitions. Next, look at the driver dependency. Windows NT 4.0 was stuck in ECHS or Large Mode until Service Pack 4. Windows XP did not automatically pass the 48-bit LBA boundary until Service Pack 1.

Personally, after dealing with many hard drives and troubleshooting issues with large partitions, I would always recommend BIOS support for the drives full capacity, operating system (driver/Service Pack) support, and NTFS (for Windows stuff) partitions.

By the way, the same problem exists with MAC OS 10. The kernel supports FAT32, and FAT32 theoretically supports 2 TB, but you try exceeding 137 GB using FAT32 under those operating systems, and it won’t work.

Then to add salt to the wound, in my opinion, hard drive manufacturers sell their external drives formatted with FAT32! Don’t they realize that people use those drives to create backups (usually a backup file ends up being larger the 4 GB) or store video files (also large file sizes)?

 

[mubs]

Buck, as always, you're right on the money. I personally would hesitate to format a partition > 20GB as FAT32; NTFS would be my choice. But our multi-personality friend seems insistent on using FAT32, and I was trying to help. I would be velly, velly nervous formatting 300GB as FAT32. But since he asked, I presume his multi-terabyte storage is currently working satisfactorily using FAT32?

 

[LunarMist]

But our multi-personality friend

You think I have multiple personalities? I hardly have one.

I presume his multi-terabyte storage is currently working satisfactorily using FAT32?

Some is FAT32, some is not. On the extrenal drives it makes little difference; even FW800 has some performance deficit compared to directly connected drives. But all those tiny NTFS clusters depress the performance of the big files. I do use the NFTS for the numerous small files where it is advantageous.

I am configuring the new 300GB drive now and it will need to be split anyway...

 

[Pradeep]

Why not format with >4K clusters in NTFS? (I know it breaks the built-in defragger and some other tools).

 

[mubs]

You think I have multiple personalities? I hardly have one.

That's what you think. You're a terribly interesting guy, Gary. Oh, and I was referring to your various avatars.

Performance aside, have large FAT32 partitions been reliable for you?

 

[LunarMist]

I am not Gary, really. :excl:

 

[mubs]

Really? Do I have early-onset Alzheimer's??!!

 

[Mercutio]

Apparently.

 

[Buck]

Really? Do I have early-onset Alzheimer's??!!

Does it matter? If you don't, it won't matter to you, because you won't remember that you do have Alzheimers. If you don't, it won't matter because you can just move on with your life. Maybe it is all the rain mubs.

 

[GIANT]

I am not Gary, really. :excl:

Oh yes you are. We've been tracking the scurrilous trail of icons and avatars you've been scattering all across this Internet. We're onto your plan.

 

[LunarMist]

I don't quite understand all that. If it is a ploy to reveal my identity, I am not quite ready.

 

[mubs]

Now you're playing with me, eh Gary?

Well, I seem to have made a complete certified doofus of myself. My sincere apologies to LunarMist, whoever he/she is, and to Gary as well.

I need to get some brain scans done to determine why my cognitive abilities have gone downhill.

 

[Computer Generated Baby]

THE FOLLOWING IS A MESSAGE FROM THE ADMINISTRATOR:

I have a very important announcement to make concerning the mission and purpose of Storage Forum.

I know we have all had a lot of fun over the past few years here at Storage Forum, and I hope that each and every one of you will continue to visit regularly. The forums have been running great and I only anticipate continued smooth sailing ahead for the remainder of 2004.

Me and 24 other graduate students here at the University have written what is likely the most sophisticated artificial intelligence program in the world. This AI program is called "RANDY." I can't tell you what the acronym R.A.N.D.Y. stands for, because if I did, I would be required by law to kill you. Anyway, Storage Forum is essentially a testbed for RANDY to use at its will.

Storage Forum is the primary vehicle for RANDY to communicate with the real world. RANDY has created many of the seemingly real personalities here in Storage Forum -- personalities that often post with spelling errors, poor grammar, ambiguous thought, mischievous intentions, and bad advice -- all in an effort to attract real-world forum members for study.

The Internet has grown at an amazing pace since Al Gore invented it back in 1992. Seemingly, at just around every bend of coax and fibre on the Internet is yet another flourishing self-perpetuating microcosm of intelligence, or as far as that goes, a multitude of expanding black holes that one can get sucked into.

Nonetheless, I am still quite amazed at just how the 3 of you real-world people managed to stumble across this Storage Forum website experiment. I truly hope all 3 of you will stay and not be offended by RANDY's occasional antics in its attempt to study humanity.


,Sincerely

• Administrator

 

[Mercutio]

Well, I am a real person. And I've spoken to Handy, BooST and Howell, and all of them are real people. Gary, I think you miscounted. There are FOUR real people.

Anyway, Lunar can't be a Gary, because his location isn't that awful place formerly known as Mexico.

 

[Tannin]

LUNAR MIST IS NOT GARY!

Lunar Mist is ... well , he's Lunar Mist.

(Mind you, he's just as damn silly as Gary. They probably went to the same LSD dealer when they were teenagers.)

 

[Tannin]

I need to get some brain scans done to determine why my cognitive abilities have gone downhill.

Don't waste your money on a scan. Anyone who can spell "cognitive" is presumed OK.

 

[Tea]

Which reminds me .....

My grandmother (well, my step-grandmother, actually - she's a relative of Tannin's) had a cockatoo she was very fond of. It had actually belonged to her grandmother originally, but outlived two generations of humans.

Anyway, one morning she found it lying on the bottom of its cage, not moving. Fearing the worst, she rang for a taxi and, cradling it tenderly in her wrinkled old hands, raced off to the vet.

The vet examined the poor old parrot carefully, and then turned to the old lady and said:

"Mrs Tannin, I'm afraid your cockatoo is dead."

"But she can't be! I've known her for 80 years!"

"Nevertheless, madam, there is nothing I can do, except offer my deepest sympathy to you."

"But .... but .. there must be something you can do. Can't you run some more tests or something? What's all this fancy equipment for?"

"No madam, I'm sorry. It's a very clear diagnosis. This is a dead parro ... er .. cockatoo."

"But you haven't even tried you horrible little man!"

"Well, I could try —"

"Yes. Please do. At once!"

"Yes, madam."

So the vet turned around, opened the door to the surgery, and whistled. After a few moments, a large black dog trotted in, an old, grey-muzzled Labrador. The vet pointed at the cockatoo and nodded. The dog put its paws up on the examination table and carefully sniffed the bird, then walked around to the other side and sniffed again. After a few minutes of this, the dog barked twice, looked at the vet, and shook its head. The vet nodded and the dog trotted off.

The vet glanced at my grandmother, saw that she was still not satisfied, and without being asked, walked to the door again and rapped smartly on it. Rat-a-tat-tat!

After a few moments, a sleek, well-groomed Siamese cat padded in. Again, the vet pointed at the cockatoo, and then pointed at a high shelf near the table. The cat jumped up onto the shelf and sat, facing the body of the cockatoo and looking it over as carefully as ever a cat watched a mousehole. For five minutes, nobody moved. Then the cat suddenly stood up, looked at the vet, and shook its head. Silently, it slunk out with its tail between its legs.

"Well, Mrs Tannin, that's final, I'm afraid. There is no doubt at all now."

"There is nothing else you can do?"

"No madam."

"Very well. I understand. Now, how much do I owe you, young man?"

"A hundred and sixty dollars, madam."

"A hundred and sixty dollars! That's ridiculous! You didn't do anything!"

"There was nothing I could do, madam. But specialised procedures are expensive and you did ask for the cat scan and the lab report."

 

[Fushigi]

Well, I am a real person. And I've spoken to Handy, BooST and Howell, and all of them are real people. Gary, I think you miscounted. There are FOUR real people.

Merc forgot that he & I met so make it 5. Six if you assume there is a corporeal being behind the packing tape that is Clocker.

 

[Tea]

Hmmm ... all these regular posters suddenly claiming to be real people ... it's suspicious. Sounds like the master programmer has slipped in a code update. My theory is that anyone claiming to be real is probably fake. Hell, my imaginary friend Tanning rang Mercutio on the telephone once, and it was the middle of the night. Now any normal flesh-and-blood person would have said "piss off you sill Aussie bastard, and ring back at a decent time of day". Nope. Mercutio chatted away for a half hour or so. Obviously a recording.

In all probability, the Bartender and I are the only real ones here.

(Tea! You're banned! Get off the computer!)

(I weas juzt leaving ....)

I better cut and run, kidz. Don't go away, I'll wait till he goes to sleep and sneak back later.

(Tea!)

(OK, OK.)

 

[Bookmage]

Real?
how did this talk of who had the bigger drives turn into whats real and whos not?
I'm real but the only proof of my existence that I have is the TB server humming at me and my linux box beeping at me to replace the fan.
And I watch Family Guy and Futurama all the time with my imaginary friends who have been with me all thoughout high school and no one can tell me otherwise. It would not surprise me to know that everything I've ever typed in a forum or on IRC is a fake and a fraud and my whole life has been created for someone else's reality tv. And if that's true, than the only thing left is for me to call the operator and tell Neo to extract me from this fake world.
And besides, we all know the only thing you can find in OZ are flying monkeys and little midgets with candy canes looking for gold at the end of the yellow brick road.


So how much of that 160$ goes towards the maintenance of the cat and the lab?

 

[Onomatopoeic]

...Anyway, Lunar can't be a Gary, because his location isn't that awful place formerly known as Mexico...

Well, now THAT certainly isn't true. LunarMist's SoCal was as much a part of Mèxico as Tejas was.

There are plenty of others here including "myselves" living in that awful place formerly known as Mèxico as well, for starters: Mubs, Buck, Sechs, Yeti, P5-133XL, Ddreuding, Cquinn, Freeborn, Santilli, JSF, etc.

 

[LunarMist]

Well this sucks. :blue: In replacing the WD740GD with the 300GB Maxline III, part of the WD SATA connection broke off in the cable. It still functions when that same cable is used (held in place well enough), but useless to sell. Is this some POS WD or what?

 

[Pradeep]

Is that one of those "SecureConnect" things? Sounds like it doesn't like to let go.

 

[CityK]

Well this sucks. :blue: In replacing the WD740GD with the 300GB Maxline III, part of the WD SATA connection broke off in the cable. It still functions when that same cable is used (held in place well enough), but useless to sell. Is this some POS WD or what?

Time to exercise that 5 year warranty me thinks.

 

[blakerwry]

I would probably use hotglue for now. If I ever plan to sell the drive I would RMA it and that way you would be able to sell a "new" or at least factory sealed drive, which should garner more money than your used one.

 

[BooST]

Will they warranty that?

Same thing happened to me w/ one of my WD360GD, and both of my roomates 360GDs. I learned my lesson the first time, and when I was assembling my fileserver, I was extremely careful with the 7K250s, and I still broke one. I've been noticing better connectors on the motherboards, they need to do the same for the drives.

 

[BooST]

BTW : Hotglue is your new best friend