Building a dirt-cheap HTPC....

[Mercutio]

ATI doesn't have an HD capture solution at the moment and Snapstream doesn't support HD either. 720p = 1280x720 = no way on current capture hardware.

And Snapstream doesn't belong in the same sentence, without a negative modifier, to the "S" word. You know, "stable".

The PVR card DOES bring appliance-like reliability to your HTPC. That's a good thing. If you want a video appliance, you'll get closer going that route.

 

[ddrueding]

So the PVR card is stable and the software isn't stable...

stable+unstable==unstable?

So what do you really think of this combo? :lol:

 

[e_dawg]

LOL, I was just going to ask the same thing. If you use the stable PVR-250 with the unstable Snapstream software, how stable will it be?

And yes, Merc, I am indeed looking for appliance-like reliability for my TIVO PVR/HTPC. Which HW and SW combo would allow me to achieve that?

 

[blakerwry]

As I said before, mythTV seems to be designed around bt8x8 and specifically the winPVR cards. Search for winPVR and you'll find myth. The PVR250 is also well supported by myHTPC. I know you can also use a program called Sage recorder

So I know there's nothing proprietary about the card stopping software from working...


Windows media center edition requres atleast a semi-hardware card, aparently many of them use Huappauge or avermedia hardware capture cards...


Merc, have you tried the winTV scheduler?

 

[Mercutio]

The reason I own a tivo is that snapstream won't stop crashing. If I load nforce2 IDE drivers, I get crashes after as little as 2 minutes. Wrong version of MMC? Crash. Wrong 3ware driver? Take a wild guess...

These aren't app errors or bluescreens, these are land-of-DOS hard locks.

Snapstream is simply amazing when it works. Things that are chores for Tivo that can be managed through a browser and handled on ANY pc in seconds for a snapstream server.

The wintv output bothers me, but the best stability I've had I got with the pvr250. I managed to go two days before I had a hard lock Since the locks didn't stop I moved back to the hardware I like better, the 9600 aiw.

Snapstream is fine if I record and playback later, always. So my 2-pronged solution to crashes is to view and schedule through tivo and snapstream at the same time. If I want to watch live I use tivo, and if snapstream dies I can feed the tivo recording in using "save to vcr".

I do not believe I can make an appliance yet. But that's a lot of what I'm working on with the "mobile athlon" thread.

 

[blakerwry]

why not try myth?

 

[ddrueding]

Merc,

Looks like you are pioneering this stuff. When you get a stable solution please let us know!

In the meantime I have the following parts incoming:

Athlon XP 2000+
MSI K7N2-V (nForce2)
ATI Radeon 9000 OEM
WD800JB
256MB PC3200 (cheapest)
OPTORITE DD0201 (DVD+/-RW)
Antec Overture

Total Cost with 8% Tax and 2nd day shipping? Under $600. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Mercutio]

I did try myth some time ago, and I wasn't really impressed with it. Snapstream impresses me, it just doesn't work very well.

I suppose some improvements might've been made in ~7 months, but to be honest, none of my Linux machines are set up with hardware to make an attempt at video capture at the moment.

I can do almost everything I need with just MMC, which is extremely stable and records beautifully, but it can't change channels on my satellite. Snapstream interfaces with and can tune my (non-TIVO) satellite receiver, has a very good EPG and works very well with the ATI remote.

WRT the PVR250 and supported capture programs: Almost everything that uses Windows video capture is expecting an analog stream that needs to be processed. The PVR250 breaks that, passing a digital MPEG stream instead. Currently most capture apps cannot properly deal with that (at least, that's what Hauppauge has to say about the issue).

Perhaps those mainstream capture programs will eventually be updated to support the PVR cards.

The WinTV scheduler does what it's supposed to, but why the heck are those features separate from the main app?

I've tried XP Media Center and it is absolutely not what I want. The recording format is DRMful WMV. Ick.

My current plans for my little cube are simple:
Asus A7N8X + Athlon 1700M (low heat, small fan)
512MB RAM
2x Hitachi 7k250 (for noise purposes, mostly, but those are super-fast drives)
Sapphire Radeon 9000 VIVO 64MB
PVR250
Possibly an Audigy or MAudio Revolution
Ahanix DVine5 case + some kind of super-quiet PSU

My goal is to have something I can actually experiement with, and for that matter, that I can carry around and show off. My HTPC is absolutely the *last* machine I want to try new things on. It's bolted into a rack, for one thing, and the fact that there's 2240GB worth of storage in that machine seals the deal. I'll have a test machine before I examine any of these things further.

Assuming I can get something that passes muster (stable, reproduceable), my next interest will be shrinking it to something even more palatable and set-toppy: A7n266 and probably something like one of those silverstone microATX cases with the riser for full-length PCI/AGP. At that point I'll probably start building and selling the config I come up with for actual money; perhaps even a profit. I've been doing vidcap work and PC integration work for a long time and I think this is something I could get a lot of people interested in.

 

[ddrueding]

there's 2240GB worth of storage in that machine

Holy cow! That's a lot of pr0n!

What's your drive array look like? 3Ware I assume...

 

[ddrueding]

Assuming I can get something that passes muster (stable, reproduceable), my next interest will be shrinking it to something even more palatable and set-toppy: A7n266 and probably something like one of those silverstone microATX cases with the riser for full-length PCI/AGP. At that point I'll probably start building and selling the config I come up with for actual money; perhaps even a profit. I've been doing vidcap work and PC integration work for a long time and I think this is something I could get a lot of people interested in.

Interest? No kidding. I have 2 dozen potential customers right now, if you could swing it for under $1k.

 

[Mercutio]

there's 2240GB worth of storage in that machine

Holy cow! That's a lot of pr0n!

What's your drive array look like? 3Ware I assume...

It's actually 8 Maxtor drives in RAID10, and 2 "loose" 120GB Samsung drives run off the motherboard. It runs 2000 Server on an AMD2800 with 1GB RAM.
I went on a buying spree not too long ago.

It's about 3/4 full with video. Not even half of it is pr0n.

 

[CityK]

WRT the PVR250 and supported capture programs: Almost everything that uses Windows video capture is expecting an analog stream that needs to be processed. The PVR250 breaks that, passing a digital MPEG stream instead. Currently most capture apps cannot properly deal with that (at least, that's what Hauppauge has to say about the issue).

Perhaps those mainstream capture programs will eventually be updated to support the PVR cards.

Merc, what other programs have you tried with the PVR250 that have worked. I see that there is one called GB-PVR and it looks interesting (but I have no idea if it would work with your satelite).

 

[ddrueding]

Well, I ended up doing this anyway; after explaining the potential difficulties of working within the budget. I also had to explain to him that if he were to go to a traditional home theater rig, he'd need to replace his TV (it only has a single VGA input).

I decided to stick it in an Antec Overture, this case looks absolutely fantastic. If anyone is planning on basing their HTPC off full-sized components, would like some expandability, and would like to pay under $100...this is definatly it.

More to come...

 

[ddrueding]

Alright, the case is incredible, I couldn't ask for anything more...but:

The motherboard I chose is a complete POS. MSI K7N2-V, this thing shows some really amazing design flaws.

1. ATX Power connector between CPU socket and PS/2 header (the power cable goes OVER the CPU fan intake )

2. Audio front panel connector directly underneath AGP slot (cannot use standard header and an AGP video card)

3. Caps way too close to CPU socket (even using a stock AMD cooler was tight)

4. I'm still building so I'm sure I'll find more. I don't think I'll buy MSI again, the lower cost is not worth the headache.

 

[Mercutio]

If it's a theater PC, it positively needs an nforce2 board anyway.

 

[ddrueding]

This board has a nForce2 chipset, though I would have preferred one with soundstorm.

 

[Mercutio]

That's what I meant. Sorry.

 

[ddrueding]

Finnished assembly. My only other complaints would be that the motherboard only came with one IDE cable, and that the location of the IDE ports prevented 2 devices from being used on a channel - they barely reached at all.

The system is fairly quiet considering the completely stock cooling setup. The rear exaush fan even had an external thermal sensor for mounting on the HDD (right in front of the fan).

The case gets a 10/10, the motherboard a 6/10.

 

[blakerwry]

Did you have any problems with the paint scratching/chipping or did you not find the same thing that I and others have seen where the paint is poorly done.

Hopefully this is something antec will resolve.

 

[ddrueding]

Did you have any problems with the paint scratching/chipping or did you not find the same thing that I and others have seen where the paint is poorly done.

Hopefully this is something antec will resolve.

The paint looks pretty good to me. They even included a little black cloth to dust the thing with

But I am careful with "piano black" cases. And as my workbench was full, I assembled this one on a rug on the floor.

 

[ddrueding]

Well, I too am having issues with the MMC. I've installed it fine on other cards (All-in-wonder VE PCI) in other OSes (98, XP) This one just won't go.

I installed all the stuff as listed on their site, and when I run it it comes up with an error associated with the device drivers. Everything looks right, but I'll try some more tomorrow.

 

[e_dawg]

I swore off TIVO/VIVO PC's back in 2001 because of all the problems I had with the ATI AIW and TV Wonder stuff. Now in 2004, I very much want to try again with TIVO/VIVO HTPC's due to my recent purchase of an HDTV, but I fear that the flakiness and tempermentalness is still very much alive and well judging by the posts on this thread (as well as with my own tinkering this past week with a basic Hauppauge WinTV card and dScaler).

I honestly wonder whether the unflaky, no-muss, no-fuss PVR/HTPC will ever exist... (and I assume nobody will go out on a limb and say that Microsoft is going to be the force behind it with Windows 2004 MCE? :lol: )

 

[blakerwry]

settop players are expanding all the time.. I'm sure we'll get there soon (within the next 18 months). HP and Sony have been working on media devices that look like they'll be promising in the next couple versions.

Perhaps intel's centrino processor will help out alot when it becomes more available in non-notebook boards. I I have no doubt that microsoft will try and get itself in there somewhere(and probably with a decent product).

 

[ddrueding]

Interesting thread on fiximg MMC

Let's see how it works...nope

Darn... :x

 

[ddrueding]

Well, I'm fed up with this MMC crap. Is there any other software that can display the input on the screen? THat's all I want at this point...

 

[Mercutio]

Which input? You mean like from VCRs or something?

 

[ddrueding]

nevermind...a google search came up with this

 

[Handruin]

Nice! You searched for help on something and google returned SF. :rotfl:

 

[ddrueding]

Nice! You searched for help on something and google returned SF. :rotfl:

Yeah, good job! :mrgrn:

 

[ddrueding]

IIRC it was the 3rd of 4th hit. I don't remember the exact phrase, though.

 

[Mercutio]

Stable Media PC components

* Asus A7N266 ($60)
Includes support Soundstorm, LAN. Video-out is barely passable and nvidia based.
* 128MB PC2100 RAM ($20)
* Mobile AthlonXP/2000 CPU ($75)
* 120GB SP1203N HDD for ~100 recording hours ($80)
* WinTV PVR250 capture card – ($180*)
* MicroATX case w/ 200W PSU ($50)
* Pioneer DVR-106D DVD writer ($120)
* 7in1 Media Reader ($10)
* ATI Remote Wonder or OEM equivalent ($35)

Hardware Total: $575 Base Price

Extras would include more RAM (obviously), or perhaps a small-form Gyration GT wireless keyboard (I used one in testing. They’re around $100 and include a mouse I didn’t use)

A secondary display would be a big help as well.

* Includes Snapstream PVR

Software:
Windows XP Home COA ($55)
SnapStream BeyondTV (included with PVR 250)
Ulead MovieFactory 3 (unknown. I suspect OEM copies are around $5 - $10)
DVD Shrink (free)
Nero Express OEM (included with Pioneer burner)

Some kind of menuing program might be nice as well.

Total Cost works out to $630

I’d suggest bundling with home audio components as well, something like an Onkyo TXNR501 ($250) or 601 ($350), and relevant cables (2x 6’ composite or Svideo cable, 6’ mono RCA cable for SPDIF output). If speakers are needed, a good starting point is Yamaha’s easily obtainable NS-P236 ($200), a 100W sub + 5 speaker setup that includes all required cables.

Least cost total for the whole Home Theater setup would be $1100.
I’d suggest retailing at $1500 for the set or $850 - $900 for the PC by itself.

 

[CityK]

The PVR-250 .... *I* see some blurriness on screen during action scenes that I don't like. I've talked to a few other people who own those cards and only one out of five notices anything similar.

Merc, which revision of the card do you have? When talking with those other card users (in particular, those who don't notice anything), did the discussions touch upon which revision of the card that they are using?

 

[Mercutio]

Um... I'll look next time I open up a PC that has one. AFAIK there's only one card rev.

 

[CityK]

No, there is two:

PVR350 - uses the iTVC15 (later rebadged as CX23415 after Connexant purchased the original chip manu.). This is a hardware encoding and decoding capable chip. It has its own little heat sink and works in conjunction with two RAM chips. The card also has a TV output, made possible by another decoder chip.

PVR250 rev1 - this card is based on the same hardware encoder/decoder chip as the 350 (i.e. the iTVC15/CX23415). Omitted was the video decoder chip that enables the TV output.

PVR250 rev2 - this card uses a CX23416 chip which is a cut down version of the iTVC15/CX23415. Specifically, it is a hardware MPEG encoder only, and thus has no hardware decoding ability. In addition, it doesn't use a heatsink and there is only one DRAM chip on board. Similar to the 250 rev 1, there is no TV output.

 

[CityK]

From an esthetics perspective, this case (and more of the same here) is certainly interesting....from a cost perspective its absolutely retarded. Can't say I necessarily agree with the no air flow design either ... (I'd increase the case height so to fit a couple of low speed 80mm fans pumping out the back....then maybe stuff it with two tiers drives).

However, consider what could be done with drives of a 2.5 form factor. Once external SATA becomes a viable reality (i.e. it becomes standardized and something is done about shielding the cables), cases like the above could be really neat.

 

[ddrueding]

From an esthetics perspective, this case (and more of the same here) is certainly interesting....from a cost perspective its absolutely retarded. Can't say I necessarily agree with the no air flow design either ... (I'd increase the case height so to fit a couple of low speed 80mm fans pumping out the back....then maybe stuff it with two tiers drives).

However, consider what could be done with drives of a 2.5 form factor. Once external SATA becomes a viable reality (i.e. it becomes standardized and something is done about shielding the cables), cases like the above could be really neat.

That is actually a pretty cool gizmo. I'm willing to bet my local fab shop could do something similar cheaper. And I'm more than sceptical about the effectiveness of the floating heatsink, both from a noise insulation and a thermal conductance perspective. If they were to offer a similar product that was simply an aluminium frame holding 6 drives that was 1U rack-mountable, I'd be all over it.

 

[Jan Kivar]

From an esthetics perspective, this case (and more of the same here) is certainly interesting....from a cost perspective its absolutely retarded. Can't say I necessarily agree with the no air flow design either ... (I'd increase the case height so to fit a couple of low speed 80mm fans pumping out the back....then maybe stuff it with two tiers drives).

Now that's what a HTPC should look like! I mean, like a big bad-ass power amp. But it should be much higher (say, six inches or so) to accommodate all gear and cooling that's quiet enough.

No buttons, though a cool but discreet logo, back-lighted with a blue LED or two could be added to finish... It could double up as the IR sensor as well.

The drives could be in such a box though, prolly near the floor or someplace else so that they don't make a racket either.

 

[CityK]

The hardware-only MPEG2 capture is perfect about 90% of the time, good enough to burn to DVD right on the spot, but man does it suck when I notice that blurring. It drives me crazy.

-----

and *I* see some blurriness on screen during action scenes that I don't like. I've talked to a few other people who own those cards and only one out of five notices anything similar.

Apparently the Hauppauge Tweak Tool will take care of that motion blur you're noticing.

 

[Mercutio]

This is probably slashdotted to holy hell right now, since that's where I found this, but I am *so* happy to see proof that I'm not nuts when it comes to the PVR250 and video quality.

 

[ddrueding]

Interesting. The ATI solution looks quite nice. Can someone tell me exactly what else I would need to fulfil the DVD decoder req. for MCE2005?