Building a Storage Server Thread

ddrueding

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From my experience, a single proc with gobs of memory and many spindles is the way to go.

I'd take a single 2.8 Ghz Xeon (sweet price point), 3GB of RAM, and 4x73GB@15k RPM.

There's a nice DB thread @ SR right now....called "sql".

How much load are you expecing?
 

Buck

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ddrueding said:
From my experience, a single proc with gobs of memory and many spindles is the way to go.

I'd take a single 2.8 Ghz Xeon (sweet price point), 3GB of RAM, and 4x73GB@15k RPM.

There's a nice DB thread @ SR right now....called "sql".

How much load are you expecing?

I know nothing of the load, and am only in the initial phases of this project. But everyones input has been helpful - thanks. I'll check out the thread on SR too.
 

blakerwry

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ddrueding said:
Holy cow...what did you do to manage that, blake?

just some tweaking... I was copying files from one computer to the file server through my main PC (all of this over SMB).

This is using the onboard NIC included with the SiS 964 SB.

Amazingly, The computer I got the files from was on a 100baseT hub which is why I guess I was capped at ~7MB/sec instead of say 8 or maybe 9MB/sec.
 

blakerwry

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I've put together a half terabyte (480GB) soft RAID 5 array using linux 2.4. Disks used are 4x 160GB DM+9's with 8MB cache each.


hda = OS on fujitsu desktop 10
hdb = DM+9 #1
hdc = DM+9 #2
hdd = LG 8160B CD RW
hde = DM+9 #3
hdg = DM+9 #4

hda-hdd are on the onboard VIA 8233 SB, hde-hdh are on a promise PCI controller.

I've tried ext3 and reiser and have done some benchmarks.

Using a 32KB chunk size and a 34GB test file
Write: 30.11 MB/sec
Read: 92.89 MB/sec
Delete: 653.84 MB/sec

*write tested with timed dd, read tested with timed cat, delete tested with timed rm command.




------------------- Reason for using 2.4 -----------------------------------------
I decided to use 2.4 because with 2.6 the drives on my promise Ultra100 controller were topping out at ~32-35MB/sec with HDparm's sequential read benches, while the drives on the onboard controller were getting expected results in the low 50's.

I thought it might be my 20" long rounded cables, the controller (had been flakey previously), or possibly PCI contention.

So I switched PCI slots... took out PCI cards... no difference, tried different cables... no difference, bought a different controller (Ultra 133Tx2).. no dice.

hdparm reported the drives as being in DMA mode with look ahead buffer on, but showed that two options were different from the onboard controller. 1) the drives were set to 16bit mode vs 32 bit mode and 2) the unmaskIRQ option was disabled.

Changing these 2 settings made little to no difference... I also tried the kernel option idebus=66 with no success.

Going back to kernel 2.4 solved the problem (sort of). One drive now benches in the high 40's, but another benches in the low 40s.

All drives bench fine with the onboard controller so I think this must be some fault of the promise controller/drivers included with linux or my mobo or drives just don't like the promise controllers all that well.

In addition to hdparm I also tested with bonnie++, but had a hard time reading the results. They did show the promise controller as being slower than the onboard.
------------------------------------------------------------





I am changing the block size now and waiting the obligatory 3 hours for the array to re-sync.

While I wait I have a question... here's a picture of my network transfers to and from the server... The writes have a sawtooth shape to them that greatly affects transfers. While the network transfer graph shows constant transfer the server is only writing the data every few seconds... every dip in the graph corresponds to one of those short (~1 sec) periods where the server actually writes the data to disk.

These dips do not happen with a single drive.

I assume there is some kind of buffer being used and when that buffer is full the data is written. Is there anyway to fix this or increase the buffer to help lessen the affects?

bad2.gif
 

blakerwry

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i forgot to make it clear that the exact same network transfer behavior was noted in 2.6 and I thought the slow performance of the drives on the promise controller might be to blame.

Infact, 2.6 was fater by a small percent compared to 2.4 ... this may be due to a newer SAMBA version though. -I have been using stock SAMBA and kernels that come with fedora core1, the latest version of knoppix, and Fedora core2 test1.
 

blakerwry

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looks like a 16KB block size works the best for me (although there want much difference)... I also forgot to mention these are binary MB, using decimal mega bytes would give me a better score.


Write: 34.09MB/sec
Read: 96.77MB/sec



Network Writes: 7.29MB/sec
Network Reads: 9.25MB/sec



I wasn't able to improve the jagged writes over SMB. but I was able to increase the size of the peaks by increasing the SAMBA buffers settings... messing with some of the system's I/O settings (mainly bdflush) typically had a smoothing effect, but reduced overall transfer rate so I stuck with the defaults.
 

blakerwry

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ah, I figured out the problem with the promise controller, there was an option in the BIOS labelled "PCI1 Master 0 WS Write" and "PCI2 Master 0 WS Write". Both options were disabled. I enabled them and now performance is as expected.
 

blakerwry

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With the drives on the promise controller behaving properly I have much better reads and deletes.. writes are not much affected.

For those interested:
Write: 32.63 MB/sec
Read: 119.18 MB/sec
Delete: 5,484.46 MB/sec
 

blakerwry

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i found out that 2 simultaneous SMB transfers kick butt on this setup... maxing out the capability of 100baseT atleast.

good.gif



Overall I found that the tweakers involved with SAMBA and linux know what they're doing.. I couldn't improve over what is setup stock.




btw, is anyone still interested in this thread or am I just talking to myself?

should I include my experiences in a "how to build half a terribyte file server -serving on the cheap" article?
 

ddrueding

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Oh, I'm still here. My GbE link goes to 40% on a single file transfer from a WD2500 to a 360GD. Why is maxing a 100base-T so difficult?
 

blakerwry

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ddrueding said:
Why is maxing a 100base-T so difficult?

Probably because of inefficiencies and delays.

Maxing out 100baseT is real easy with netperf. You can easily see that with decent gear you can achieve 98-100Mbps...

The thing is when you have multiple bottlenecks as well as other interactions you run into delays that affect another area. So it's not just a case of looking at the weakest link and saying "ok, here's your bottleneck". You have to look the whole picture and see how things interract.

The fact that i'm able to achieve as good of performance as I am(when writing) indicates that I would benefit from gig-e.

I'd be interested in your performance if you set your gear to 100Mbps.
 

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OK, it's been some months since this was last discussed. If you were to build a storage server using technology available today or expected within the next 3 months, what would you consider?

My requirement: Enough storage space for 1000+ DVDs, 200+ CDs, a few hundred GB of downloaded AVIs (amazingly, this doesn't include any pr0n), etc. The server would be attached by either 100Mb or Gb Ethernet or maybe just 108Mb wireless. Easy expansion via adding additional disks.

The server needs to be able to stream a minimum of 2 video streams concurrently. It does not have to be the source PC from which DVDs will be ripped.

At this point, no RAID. If a disk fails, it's understood that it would have to be reloaded from the source disks. To that end, the process for capturing each source item will be noted and, if possible, added to a rebuild script. That said, the downloaded materials can be considered irreplaceable so I might mirror a couple of disks to keep them safe. Software mirroring should be adequate so I can avoid the expense of a RAID card.

For me, I'm considering two possible configs, although I'm certainly open to other suggestions.
1. A true server: In addition to doing storage serving it will run the Folding client.
2. A straight-up NAS-type device. No server OS, no Folding client. Just dedicated network-attached disk.

For option 1 above, I would lean towards a medium- to high-end A64. 1GB RAM, minimal boot drive, say 40GB. Linux or W2K3. Internal disks would be added until the chassis fills up. After it's full, review options for adding more.

For option 2, a bare-bones Dell Celeron server (or whatever's cheap) or even a white-box pre-built NAS. Again, start with minimal disk and add as neeeded.

For the disks, I would be considering Hitachi 400 or 500 GB units.

The case would be modded if necessary to include 120mm fans blowing directly across the drives. It'll also be in our basement so it'll stay cool even in summer. Noise is not really a concern, although I wouldn't want it to be too loud.

This is a first stab and doesn't address the case, PSU, etc.
 

blakerwry

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If you went with Dell option you'd have probably the fastest and cheapest result, but would be very limited on disk space as their cases cannot house more than 5 hard drives in my experience.


I would go with an Antec 3700BQE case and a PC power and cooling PSU (probably around 450watts) as you can hold 7 HDDs that are adequately cooled, plus a floppy and optical.

I would stick with an Intel motherboard that supported CSA gigabit, as it will be the fastest and seems to have the best supported and most mature S-ATA drivers in any OS along with fastest network access along with just plain being stable boards. A celeron and 512MB RAM is plenty of power for a file server.

I assume you dont want to hold 1000, full quality DVDs as this will likely reach 5TB alone + 200 full quality CDs (200GB) + your extra avi's

If you ran autogk or similar and compressed each DVD to 1GB you could allot 1TB to DVDs, plus 1/2 TB to the rest. This is achievable via five 300GB disks (no redundancy) or + four 400GB disks (1.6TB) + your OS disk.


I would put the OS disk on the onboard controllers, however I would recommend putting the additional disks on a single controller. This would be much cheaper and provide many more controller options with 4 drives. On the other hand, would limit your HDD choices. If you don't mind Hitachi, I would go this route.

Less drives = less heat and less power consumption along with less things to fail.

Promise, SIIG, and Pacific digital all have cheap non-RAID 4xSATA cards in the $60 range.


Let me know where you want to go from here...
 

blakerwry

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Or, if you are crazy like me... stick with P-ATA, use the onboard P-ATA channels of any motherboard... you'll save on the drives and on the controller, plus have better OS support and maturity.
 

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Gary listed some Supermicro cases for Santilli in one of the threads. It would be worthwhile to check your options on these.
 

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Am I right in thinking you don't know much about Linux, Fushigi?

CPU-wise, I'd go with something modest and low-heat. Possibly a Celeron (to get CSA, although this application doesn't need it), more probably a Via (really low power) or Athlon64 solution (for encoding work etc). Any flavor of non-Celeron Pentium 4 would cause me to laugh uproariously.

An AthlonXP mobile might also be worthy of consideration. A lot of nforce2 boards support PATA RAID and SATA, giving you a total of 10 drives with which to work... and with the MCP which gives you the marvelous Dolby Digital out that I love so much (note that you have to select an nforce2 board with support for a digital output, which some boards don't have). This is essentially the configuration my HTPC uses, even though that machine has at this point one of the slowest CPUs I have.

1TB will very comfortably hold around 200 DVDs, but at that point organization and access are issues. Unless you want to put a PC everywhere, or plan to use this machine from a single location, you'll have problems with accessing them. At 1000 DVDs, organization is actually a full-fledged pain in the ass.

Drivewise I'd probably look at 7k250s because they are available in SATA and PATA flavors. Seagate and Maxtor 300GB units aren't as good from a GB/$ perspective, but of course this is as much about storage density as cost. Hitachi still lists power-on-hours for their drives. I cheerfully ignore them on mine, but that's a drawback to be aware of.

I'd suggest purchasing one or two 400 disc DVD carousels and a receiver that is capable of multiple video outputs (or a video distribution system). That will nicely handle the vast majority of your DVD needs in a legitimate fashion.

I'd recommend RAID5 for whatever you do. 300GB per disc is too much to back up in any sane manner, and losing a 300GB chunk of data would hurt anyone. You'll want a single large volume as well, if for no other reason than being able to see everything (within the bounds of your scheme for organization) at once. SATA RAID5 hardware is expensive, but older 3ware cards for PATA drives are fairly cheap, secondhand.

Casewise, I like rackmount stuff. Most home audio components also fit or can be mounted in a 19" rack, and most racks have or can be fitted with some kind of cable management system. If nothing else, having all your cables on the same plane makes organizing them a little easier.
Find a crappy old fileserver case, rip the guts out and viola!

For remote control, RF is the way to go! ATI Remote wonders are wonderful for this, if you can get a remote display. IR repeaters are a horrible pain in the ass, and you probably won't want to put your media server/htpc in a room where you spend a great deal of time.

One thing I would absolutely not recommend is putting a media server on a wireless link. Even the best 802.11 connections drop from time to time. It's annoying. Not only that, wherever you decide to put that machine, there are going to be wires. There is no question about this. It's not like this machine will be roaming free throughout your home.
 

Bozo

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I would suggest an Intel 915 motherboard. The SATA on these (4 ports) don't need extra drivers. Thinking about 1 boot drive (40GB?) and 3-300GB Seagate drive in RAID 0 (you said you are not worried about losing a drive :eek: ). That would give you 900GB. This can all be done with the motherboard controller, nothing extra to buy.
An Intel processor of your choice. The 915GAV supports the Celeron CPUs, and has video built in along with a Gb network card.

Any Antec case that holds 4 hard drives would work fine-SX1040BII.

Bozo :mrgrn:
 

Buck

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Bozo said:
I would suggest an Intel 915 motherboard. The SATA on these (4 ports) don't need extra drivers. Thinking about 1 boot drive (40GB?) and 3-300GB Seagate drive in RAID 0 (you said you are not worried about losing a drive :eek: ). That would give you 900GB. This can all be done with the motherboard controller, nothing extra to buy.
An Intel processor of your choice. The 915GAV supports the Celeron CPUs, and has video built in along with a Gb network card.

Any Antec case that holds 4 hard drives would work fine-SX1040BII.

Bozo :mrgrn:

Bozo, have you used the 915GAVL much? I've done some preliminary estimates with this board and the 540 processor as mid to high ranged office machines. I opted to include an ATI X300 or X600.
 

Bozo

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Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to test one of these boards yet. I have one on my desk, but I recieved a socket 478 CPU instead of the LGA 775 it requires. (everything seems to be backordered. :cry: )
I have 3 more ordered for some new projects.
I ordered a MSI Radeon X300SE video card for testing. This video card would be used if the onboard video fails.
The test box is using a WD Raptor. The production boxes will be using Seagate SATA drives.

Bozo :mrgrn:
 

Buck

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I figured the Antec SLK1650B would be nice for the Value systems and the Sonata for the High-End systems. Right now the 80 GB Hitachi drives are less expensive for me than the Seagates.
 

Bozo

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Hmmm.....Some of the online retaillers are listing RAID capability with the D915GAV board, but Intels site doesn't methion it.

Bozo :mrgrn:
 

Fushigi

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blakerwry said:
If you went with Dell option you'd have probably the fastest and cheapest result, but would be very limited on disk space as their cases cannot house more than 5 hard drives in my experience.
True. This does limit the value on the Dell solution as I'm sure I'd wind up with 8+ drives in the long run.
I would go with an Antec 3700BQE case and a PC power and cooling PSU (probably around 450watts) as you can hold 7 HDDs that are adequately cooled, plus a floppy and optical.
I'll check the case out. I've used PCP&C PSUs for along time and have no problem with them other than price. Of late I've used and liked the Antec TruePower series, although I understand that less expensive equivalents are available.
I would stick with an Intel motherboard...
Probably not, but only because I have a bias towards AMD solutions. I would have no problem using an Intel GbE NIC & a quality PCI S-ATA card, though.
I assume you dont want to hold 1000, full quality DVDs as this will likely reach 5TB alone + 200 full quality CDs (200GB) + your extra avi's
I'm sure it would involve re-compressing down to something more reasonable. The goal is to be able to watch with no noticeable loss of quality in either the audio or video. For the majority of the disks, I can strip out extras, menus, alternate audio tracks, etc. but for some I will want to keep those features. I'm presuming conservative settings on autogk or some other util will get the average DVD to under 2GB. CDs will be converted to MP3 or somesuch format that uses less space than uncompressed.
I would put the OS disk on the onboard controllers, however I would recommend putting the additional disks on a single controller.
I was thinking along those lines. Especially if I change my mind & do RAID5 for the data.

I've no problem staying with P-ATA drives except for the potential problems getting replacement units 2 years out. Because of that concern, S-ATA will likely be the interface of choice for the data drives.
mubs said:
Gary listed some Supermicro cases for Santilli in one of the threads. It would be worthwhile to check your options on these.
Good point. When the time comes to actually start buying, I'll have to re-visit that thread as well.
Mercutio said:
Am I right in thinking you don't know much about Linux, Fushigi?
Yes. My unix knowledge in general is limited and probably somewhat dated. But I'm not afraid to make this an educational experience as well.
CPU-wise, I'd go with something modest and low-heat.
If I go the NAS route, yes. If a server, it'll also run the Folding client so I'd want something decently high end. Power, heat, and noise aren't concerns as the machine will be in the basement.
1TB will very comfortably hold around 200 DVDs, but at that point organization and access are issues.
The plan is to have a small database that would contain info about all the disks. Sort of the home version of IMDB. :) All outputs will be PC-driven, including the main HT system (for which I'll also probably build a small HTPC), my PC, and my wife's. Other devices as necessary.
I'd suggest purchasing one or two 400 disc DVD carousels...
What keeps me from this solution is the lack of multiple concurrent outputs. I want the ability to stream at least 2 video sources concurrently. Otherwise I'd have gone the carousel route years ago.
I'd recommend RAID5 for whatever you do.
I'm starting to give this more consideration. One facet of the database I mentioned is that it will hold the program & settings used to re-compress the disc as well as what HD the data was stored on. So in theory a rebuild script could be built from the database & reloading from a failed drive would just involve building & running the script + manually loading all of the DVDs that were contained on teh failed drive.

The DVDs, once loaded, will be boxed and stored based on what drive they're on, so retrieving any batch should be easy enough.

Still, with RAID5 that sort of rebuild shouldn't even be necessary. My largest concern is availability of equivalent replacement drives a couple of years down the road. If I go RAID5, this is a concern. If I just start using drive letters (or directory mounts if Linux), I can replace drives with equal or larger capacity units at will.

Since the 'view' will be the database, I won't stripe or JBOD the disks.
Casewise, I like rackmount stuff.
I do to but I don't have a PC rack. I suppose I could pick one up. The remaining HT gear in the main setup (Receiver, HTPC, etc.) will remain in the AV cabinet it's in now or will move to shelving in the stand for an HD TV when I do that upgrade.

For remote control, RF is the way to go!
I've got an AIW9600 in my main PC and would probably use it. Because it's on the other side of the wall from the HT gear, it may even work as the HTPC. For all others, either the Remote Wonder or a wireless kbd/mouse will suffice as it will need to be able to navigate the database app as well as control the media player.
One thing I would absolutely not recommend is putting a media server on a wireless link.
Well, that was just a thought as it'd let me avoid drilling some holes. My Internet feed enters through my den, so I've got the cable modem & router there. But it'd be no big deal to move those to the basement I suppose.
 

Bookmage

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How would you implement this database? mysql/php? another vote for linux then...

and you would want the dynamic/changeable raid5 card so u can increase volume w/o needing the same size hard drives. So in the future, you could slowly increase your RAID5 volume drive by drive. Linux software RAID5 can do this and it's a nice feature.
I take it a 3ware controller is recommended for hardware raid5, but what about software raid5? would one of hte multiport hightpoint controllers work?
or just a bunch of cheap ide/sata controllers/onboard?

This has given me some ideas about the tvshows on DVDs and tv shows from TIVO....
 

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Bookmage said:
How would you implement this database? mysql/php? another vote for linux then...

and you would want the dynamic/changeable raid5 card so u can increase volume w/o needing the same size hard drives. So in the future, you could slowly increase your RAID5 volume drive by drive. Linux software RAID5 can do this and it's a nice feature.
I take it a 3ware controller is recommended for hardware raid5, but what about software raid5? would one of hte multiport hightpoint controllers work?
or just a bunch of cheap ide/sata controllers/onboard?

This has given me some ideas about the tvshows on DVDs and tv shows from TIVO....
A friend was writing a media manager. Indeed it was based on a mySQL engine with a VB front-end. He stalled his development work, though.

Realistically, any decently designed single table with multiple indexes should work fine for each media type. Heck, it's just our personal media collection. Not like it's the Library of Congress or anything.

Good thoughts on the RAID. As I'm pretty out of touch on PC RAID solutions nowadays, it's nice to know about the ability to increase RAID volume size w/o replacing all disks at the same time (& doing a save/restore).

Doug - I'll check those out as well.

Merc/anyone - Any recommendations for an equipment rack? I'm liking the idea of going rack-mount for the server and any potential external disk cages. I'd probably just want a mini-rack that could handle 10 or 12 Us. It doesn't have to have front/rear/side panels; just the frame would be sufficient, although cable management troughs would be nice.
 

Mercutio

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This is what I came up with in speccing a Terabyte "server" today:

Via KM266 motherboard + Sempron 2200 = $90
Speeze "Bigrock" fan = $7
256MB RAM = $32
CD-RW = $26
Case with decent HEC 420W PSU = $52
4x 7k250 SATA @ $135 = $540
Samsung 80GB Boot drive = $60
4-port Sil SATA controller = $30
bt878 TV Card = $31

Total is $868.
Granted, it's a fairly anemic server, but a small amout of testing shows it to be just fine for sitting in a corner and recording TV.
 

Bookmage

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Hrm... Not bad... Now, what if you wanted say a TB of net space using RAID5? So you would need 5 x 250s or 5 x 300s or 4 x 400s....
I take it another 250GB drive and SATA controller for $135+$30 would work, and that would put the cost at just a bit over 1Grand...

And I hadn't realized they had 4 port SATA cards for 30$... I must be looking in the wrong places or something...
I'm guessing there's no real performance difference in the low end 4 port sata cards? And what would you recommend if you had an old comp with only one available pci slot? Invest in the cheapest 8 port to use as a basic controller or pick up bigger drives?
 

Mercutio

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I found this.

The card supports RAID 0, 1 and 10, but I'm just going to configure the PC to do software RAID.

I think I'd be happy with 4x 250s, personally. The "cheapest 8 port" cards would up the price on my proposed server by 50%.
 

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Sorry...I missed the part about only having a single PCI slot. Nevermind my last post.
 

ddrueding

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A lot of pretty tech speak and a flashy website...and not a single product.....bullshit...er, excuse me...whay I meant to say was, perhaps we should have another look at them in 6 months, and see if they have something concrete.
 

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They're a very new outfit. You can read a little more about them here.

Zetera is not involved in manufacturing products, but its forthcoming technology has already captured the interest of companies such Bell Microproducts, Netgear, and StorCase.
.
.
.
On paper, a technology such as Zetera's that promises fast performance, easy management and contained cost should be a clear winner...
In practice, the success of Zetera's approach to storage networks will be determined by its acceptance by mainstream vendors...
 

ddrueding

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mubs said:
On paper, a technology such as Zetera's that promises fast performance, easy management and contained cost should be a clear winner...
In practice, the success of Zetera's approach to storage networks will be determined by its acceptance by mainstream vendors...

Got it. A most un-enviable position. Their investors must be having heat attacks.
 

mubs

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Looks like they're an IP (pun intended) only company. Like Rambus. Which certainly makes money, despite their ups and downs and questions of propriety.

David, it's certainly not hot down here.

Why are you giys so negative? Granted, this may turn out to be vaporware. But if it is true, and takes off, it could be a boon for SOHO/SMBs. There are magnitudes more of those than large businesses in any part of the world. At least give them the benefit of the doubt.

And no, I have no stock / ownership / connection with them. Came across the news item, and since this is a storage forum, and frequently a hot topic, thought I'd post a link here.

Sheeesh.
 
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