Buying a LCD in the next day and need advice

[timwhit]

I am buying a 17" LCD in the next day and I need to know which one to buy. The Samsung SyncMaster 171N is supposed to be a really nice monitor. However, it costs $460. Now the 170N is only $379 which is a much better price. What is the difference between these two models? Will I even be able to tell the difference.

Another question, I have a digital output on my video card, is it worth the extra money to buy a LCD that has a digital connection? Is the difference noticeable?

Are there other brands other than Samsung that have LCDs that are as good as quality for cheaper? I have only heard good things about Samsung LCDs which is why I am looking at these the most.

One more question. Is it 'an LCD' or 'a LCD'?

 

[The Grammar Police]

An LCD. A liquid crystal but an LCD.

 

[Tea]

I've not tried Samsung LCDs lately, but their reputation is excellent. I am mostly selling Mitsubishi 172s, and they are very nice indeed, but I have not looked at many of the competitors. Samsung screens tend to be a little expensive, so one of the other guys may well have a suggestion to make. I am very happy with my new Mitsubishi, but take a look for yourself - I ook one home to try replacing my big old Hitachi 19" CRT with, but went back to the Hitachi because it's better for editing pictures.

 

[timwhit]

An LCD. A liquid crystal but an LCD.

Um why is it this way?

 

[Mercutio]

Things that start, phonically speaking, with a vowel, are singularly referred to as "An". Things that start with a phonic consonant start with "A".

In this case, we're pronouncing the sound "E" as the first phoneme in the word LCD - ell-see-dee.

So it gets an "An".

 

[timwhit]

Things that start, phonically speaking, with a vowel, are singularly referred to as "An". Things that start with a phonic consonant start with "A".

In this case, we're pronouncing the sound "E" as the first phoneme in the word LCD - ell-see-dee.

So it gets an "An".

That's all well and good, but which monitor should I buy? I need to know soon. Where is Cougtek? He knows all about this stuff.

 

[CityK]

timwhit,

1) For what sort of application are you going to use it for?

2) You do realise (which it looks like you do) that the N series does not support DVI.

3) In regards to DVI, I would have to say that it is a worthwhile improvement over analog. Especially given you already have a Video Card with DVI. By the way what card do you have?

4) Yes, there are good Samsung alternatives.

5) You really should take a look at Dell as they are constantly having great sales (with stackable coupons etc) on their line up of lcds - Dell branded, NEC, Samsung, Planer, Sharp, Sony, Viewsonic, blah blah blah....With Dell you also get a great no hassles return if your not satisfied etc. only wish that I had access to the same pricing and support here. [shakes fist wildly in air] Damn spoiled Americans! [/shakes fist wildly in air]

6) An excellent source for user opinion is the gigantic ~90 page thread over on ARS AV forum. It has been running since Nov'01. Somewhere in the middle of it, one member developed an ad hoc method of visually demonstrating the amount of streaking a model is prone to have under certain situations (namely fps games).

7) Manufacturers specs should not form the basis of your decision as they are misleading and the different types of panels (IPS, MVA, TN, PVA..) "perform" differently dispite quoting the same specs. Most reviews tend to gloss over certain aspects and just end up being a blatant commercial for the panel manufacturer (ahem *Samsung*) or a regurgitation of the web site specs (ie. Toms Hardware).

 

[e_dawg]

Your top two options:

1. NEC Multisync 1760v. 16 ms response time, 450:1 contrast ratio, 140* viewing angle h&v. Almost the same price as the other analog LCD's in its price range. The physical appearance of the NEC is not quite as sleek and sexy as the Samsung 171N, but the response time is better, which should reduce the typical problems associated with LCD's and moving images.

2. Acer AL732. Possibly the best value with a 16 ms response time, 450:1 contrast ratio, 160* viewing angle h&v, AND digital DVI capability.

From my limited experience with digital vs. analog LCD's, paying a significant premium for digital (the Acer AL732 is the only reasonably priced digital LCD) is not worth it IMHO.

 

[Jan Kivar]

If Honold would still be here, I think that he'd recommend NEC (as he has one)...

If You buy an LCD with DVI connector, I suggest strongly to use DVI, if You can. Some LCDs that have both D-SUB and DVI connectors have poor analog components. Or, better say, the image is better with DVI.

Regardless of brand/model You end up buying, be sure to test the display in the shop, or demand that You can change it for free with the shop (NOT with the manuf.), if there are defective pixels. Especially as the manufacturers are not so keen to RMA it with only one-two defective pixels. Nothing sucks more than spending $400 to a "broken" display.

Cheers,

Jan

 

[CougTek]

Where is Cougtek? He knows all about this stuff.

I never get tired of reading/hearing that 8)

As CityK wrote, it depends on the things you plan to do with your LCD. If your a freaking FPS gamer, then your choice should be limited to the few models with a response time of 16ms. However, many of the 25ms response time models are also very acceptable for casual gamers.

My problem with the current generation of 16ms rt panels is that their color reproduction is well below the one of the best 25ms ones (they look washed out a bit). For general purpose desktop use, Office work and net browsing, you'd be better with a Samsung 172T or a Sony SDM-HS73W. Both have better color reproduction than the NEC LCD1760NX or the Acer named above (or the Hitachi with the same 16ms rt panel). IMO, the Samsung and the Sony are better than their faster-response-time cousins 95% of the time.

My personal favorite among the 17" LCD is the Sony SDM-HS73W. I looked at several mainstream and higher-end flat panels and this is the one that had the better picture quality. Even better than the higher-end Samsung. The main drawback with this unit is that its bezel is quite large. It's also a tad on the pricey side (~500U$).

Samsung's current 172T looks nice on paper, but I've never saw it close and personal so I cannot compare with the Sony. I've seen the older 172T model (the one with a contrast ratio of 500:1) and I prefered the Sony, thought not by much.

One last thing. Be aware that some models (can't remember, think it was some Samsung's like the 191N) provide a greater color range when used in analog than in DVI because there is a greater number of image settings for the analog signal than there is for the digital one. That way, it isn't unusual to get more gray shades via analog than via DVI.

 

[Pradeep]

One last thing. Be aware that some models (can't remember, think it was some Samsung's like the 191N) provide a greater color range when used in analog than in DVI because there is a greater number of image settings for the analog signal than there is for the digital one. That way, it isn't unusual to get more gray shades via analog than via DVI.

AFAIK there is no limitation on shades of colours via DVI. I believe most(all?) the panels use 7 bits per colour channel, and therefore cannot produce the gamut of a CRT monitor.

 

[blakerwry]

that just depends on the CRT.. while a CRT will accept infinite amounts of colors some cannot reprodce more than 16bit.. others about 24 bit...

I've never seen a CRT that I can tell the difference between 24 and 32 bit as long as the image was ditherered correctly.

I have gotten 2 of the samsung 172T monitors.. they are really great. I wuld recomend them as the best all around LCD out right now... The monitor looks great in both analog and in DVI, but DVI is more clear. But they do have a high price tag. (neither of the displays has any dead sub-pixels)

Maybe you should goto the shop and compare... remember to run at the native resoution.


Also, i do agree to check out dell, they often have just plain rock bottom prices when they have stackable rebates. Their CRT monitors seem to be middle of the line to good, but at a great price and good warranty in the US.

 

[timwhit]

Is the Dell UltraSharp 1703FP 17-inch a good monitor? It has dual connectors and I can get it for $441 after rebates and coupons. Who manufactures this monitor?

 

[timwhit]

I went ahead and ordered the Dell UltraSharp 1703FP. Hopefully it will work well and it is good quality.

 

[Handruin]

www.Bensbargains.net has a plethora of LCD deals today from Dell...you might want to look and see if you can get a rebate or something...

Dell Home has a one-day coupon code 86913675382A for $35 off $400 purchases. LCDs are currently 10% off as well, with free shipping on $99 and no tax for most.

 

[timwhit]

Ya, I used those coupouns and I got free shipping. Is Dell usually ship things out pretty quick?

 

[Handruin]

I have yet to order from them...can't say how well they ship. A buddy of mine at work ordered a hard drive and I believe it came in a week...I'll ask him tomorrow.

When you get the monitor, let us know how it is!

 

[Corvair]

...I've never seen a CRT that I can tell the difference between 24 and 32 bit...

That's because there is no difference between 24-bit and 32-bit.

Both use 8-bit Red, Green, and Blue channels, but 32-bit has an additional channel called Alpha, which is usually used for transparency -- if anything at all. Graphics cards are optimised for 32-bit colour mode, so you may actually have no choices but 32-bit, 16-bit, and 8-bit modes because they fit well with the graphics coprocessor's architecture as opposed to the 24-bit mode or the rare 15-bit (5 bits per RGB) mode.

 

[Pradeep]

Ya, I used those coupouns and I got free shipping. Is Dell usually ship things out pretty quick?

With peripherals they have in stock they usually ship within a day or so. Have you got the order confirmation email giving you the customer and order number? You can use those to track your order at the Dell site:

http://support.dell.com/dellcare/orderstatus/orderstatus.aspx

Be aware that sometimes you receive the LCD etc before they even list a tracking number Of course with UPS Ground it all depends on how nice your UPS dood is...

 

[freeborn]

Ya, I used those coupouns and I got free shipping. Is Dell usually ship things out pretty quick?

Yes, they had a deal a few weeks ago for 25% off and free shipping on their LCDs so I bought a 2000FP. Dell's order tracking indicated the item had shipped about 6 hours later. The monitor arrived two days later. Interestingly the Dell order tracking link did not work until after the monitor arrived.

Sorry I didn't see this thread earlier or I would have recommended a Dell. I use the 1800FP at work through the analog port and a KVM connecting it to 4 systems (main desktop, notebook, burning system, and whichever test sytem I'm bringing up that day). It's been running beautifully. The 2000FP is connected to my main rig at home through its DVI connector and all I can say is wow. I have to use 120DPI font settings though do to my eyes, 96 dpi fonts where too hard to read. Anyway assuming all Dell LCDs are as good as the 1800FP and 2000FP you should be happy. If they shipped yesterday you should expect your monitor's first delivery attempt tomorrow. They require signature to deliver so I had to wait another day to get mine. My company has also gotten a number of Dell LCDs and they were all shipped Air Borne Express 2nd day.

Free

 

[timwhit]

I finally got Dell's order status tool to work and they have shipped my monitor and it should be here by Tuesday. I'll let you guys know how it looks when I get it.

 

[timwhit]

I received the monitor on Monday, a day early than what I expected. It is so much nicer than my old Sony Trinitron. Although they are the same size the LCD looks a lot larger. Plus, it runs at a higher resolution than my old monitor.

One question, do LCDs have any problems with burn-in? If I leave it on for long periods of time is there a good chance that I will damage the screen?

 

[Jan Kivar]

I received the monitor on Monday, a day early than what I expected. It is so much nicer than my old Sony Trinitron. Although they are the same size the LCD looks a lot larger. Plus, it runs at a higher resolution than my old monitor.

One question, do LCDs have any problems with burn-in? If I leave it on for long periods of time is there a good chance that I will damage the screen?

Um, what model was your old CRT? Was it 17"?

I think that even the newer CRTs don't have the burn-in problem anymore. Maybe someone knows better than me...

Cheers,

Jan

 

[Pradeep]

One question, do LCDs have any problems with burn-in? If I leave it on for long periods of time is there a good chance that I will damage the screen?

I haven't noticed any problems with my 2000FP. Of course you could always set power management to turn the monitor off after x number of minutes if you are concerned. With my Dell, I have the brightness at about 20 or 30 out of 100, so I don't think it will be a prob for me.

 

[Mercutio]

The "normal" burn-in problem basically comes from continuous lighting of the phosphors in the screen elements of a CRT.

Plasma displays (where plasma gases are locally excited to produce an image) DO have serious burn-in problems, as do CRT-based projection displays.

LCDs can have a burn-in like problem where pixels basically remain "stuck" in a certain pattern if you leave the same image on the screen for awhile (I observed this on an XP machine that had locked up on the login screen). I spent awhile troubleshooting - it had RAM problems - told my customer to leave it alone for awhile. When I came back to look at it like a week later, there wasn't any sign of a problem.
I understand that's the normal procedure for dealing with problems with LCD displays.

 

[timwhit]

One question, do LCDs have any problems with burn-in? If I leave it on for long periods of time is there a good chance that I will damage the screen?

I haven't noticed any problems with my 2000FP. Of course you could always set power management to turn the monitor off after x number of minutes if you are concerned. With my Dell, I have the brightness at about 20 or 30 out of 100, so I don't think it will be a prob for me.

So I shouldn't have any problem since the brightness on my new LCD is set at 0.

Jan,
I forgot to reply to your message. My old CRT was a Sony 220GS. I had it for at least 5 years. I left it running all the time for days on end and I never had any problems with burn-in. I just don't know what to do with it now. I guess I will just let my girlfriend use it instead of the crappy e-machines 15" monitor that she has now.

 

[Jan Kivar]

Jan,
I forgot to reply to your message. My old CRT was a Sony 220GS. I had it for at least 5 years. I left it running all the time for days on end and I never had any problems with burn-in. I just don't know what to do with it now. I guess I will just let my girlfriend use it instead of the crappy e-machines 15" monitor that she has now.

Display is usually the most valuable part for the ergonomics of the computer. I too used to watch 15" Daewoo @1024x768/85Hz, and boy does it look sucky now. Then I bought Nokia 447Xi (17"), and used it happily for four years (and it's still used in my old computer).

I started thinking about getting myself a new monitor (this was over a year and a half ago). At first I opted for Samsung 900NF, which at the time was priced at 400 Euros. I thought of getting a 21" display, but they were something like 900 Euros (decent ones). Then one day I happened to found one shop that was selling displays from bankrupt e-businesses. I got used Nokia 445Pro for 500 Euros. The picture is fine even at 1600x1200. The only drawbacks are weight and the heat output.

I wish I had bought bigger screen earlier, as the usability is much better than with 17". It's better for the eyes too (I used to run the 17" @1280x960 or @1152x864). I hope that everyone here is using at least 17" displays...

Cheers,

Jan

 

[CityK]

I hope that everyone here is using at least 17" displays...

I'm currently using an old 14 inch CRT. A rather painful experience, but it was born out of necessity - I've had two monitor deaths (very sad ) in the last little while, and my best monitor I lent out (read: gave away to a family member) about a year ago. So I'm temporarily stuck with what I got....going to get a LCD soon enough, just waiting on a couple of newer models I'm interested in to make it to market.

 

[Jan Kivar]

I hope that everyone here is using at least 17" displays...

I'm currently using an old 14 inch CRT. A rather painful experience, but it was born out of necessity - I've had two monitor deaths (very sad ) in the last little while, and my best monitor I lent out (read: gave away to a family member) about a year ago. So I'm temporarily stuck with what I got....going to get a LCD soon enough, just waiting on a couple of newer models I'm interested in to make it to market.

Well... How's the Web in 800x600?

Jan

 

[Handruin]

Well, I took the plunge tonight and I stopped by staples to pick up a clearance (yet completely new, in the box and never used) NEC 1760V for $330.00 after I mail in the rebate. It seemed like a good deal, but I can't always keep every store in line. Stplaes says I can return the monitor if it has any dead pixels for up to 14 days, no questions asked.

Was that a reasonable price?

 

[timwhit]

Sounds like a good price to me. Lowest price on Newegg for that monitor is $399. How does it look?

 

[Handruin]

I'm still trying to hook it up. I had to hook my old monitor back up to it because the refresh was way to high. (100Hz)

I'm going to reduce it and check it out, I'll let you know.

 

[Handruin]

First impression is um...very bright and crisp text. Scrolling a window doesn't produce a very noticable scrren lag...much better than expected.

 

[Handruin]

I fired up photoshop to run a quick pixel check and I noticed only one pixel that was stuck on when the screen is entirely black at the bottom left corner. (very hard to notice unless I was really looking for it)

I check each of the primary colors, white, and black and only black displayed a stuck pixel. I'll probably take it back, but my luck would bring another monitor with multiple stuck pixels.

 

[Jan Kivar]

I fired up photoshop to run a quick pixel check and I noticed only one pixel that was stuck on when the screen is entirely black at the bottom left corner. (very hard to notice unless I was really looking for it)

I check each of the primary colors, white, and black and only black displayed a stuck pixel. I'll probably take it back, but my luck would bring another monitor with multiple stuck pixels.

Maybe You should try to test it ín the store?

You Americans always have much lower prices, plus the discounts. I didn't see 1760V anywhere here yet, so I can't compare. How much was the discount? We did have an offer for Medion 18,1"; 448 Euros. 1280x1024, 25 ms claimed. Don't know about the quality...

In comparison Samsung 172T is around 600 Euros, whereas Pricewatch has the cheapest prices around $550. [Hmm... I thought that the difference would be larger... Well, one $ isn't exactly one Euro...]

Cheers,

Jan

 

[timwhit]

I don't think I would go through that much trouble for one pixel. Is it even noticable during normal usage? If not then do you really care?

 

[blakerwry]

i was talking toa woman the other day... she had bought (and returned) 3 toshiba laptops because each had a single stuck pixel...


from what I've seen Samsung is the best about not having broken pixels... any other brand seems like a toss up... I believe phillips has the best on paper warranty about dead pixels...

From what I've heard it's common to have a misbehaving pixel on NEC's LCDs... as I said.. toss up...

 

[CityK]

Well... How's the Web in 800x600?

Works fine. Probably about 97% of the content I view is configured for 800x600.

Hee hee, what's really bad was that I ended up driving the monitor too hard. It used to be able to handle 1024x768 @60Hz several years ago, but I guess with age the caps have deteriorated, and the additional stress caused by the warmer temperatures of the summer, things got pushed a little too high. In fact, I know it did, cause it can no longer even go with 800x600 @60Hz for too long before its electronics start pumping out some serious heat, some high pitched whine starts and the picture gets all distorted.

The short term solution to this problem? Why the all so popular resoluition of 720x576 of course!...at 60Hz no less.....oh my eyes! Like I said, its only a short term, stop gap solution....and even at this lame res. is pretty compatible with the majority of web sites.

CK

 

[Mercutio]

I note that Amazon has low-end 14" LCDs on special for $150 right now, and I'm seeing low-end 17"s at around $300.

Looks like LCD displays are finally reaching mainstream price points. Hopefully the slightly higher-end models will hit those prices by the holiday season.

 

[Jan Kivar]

I've read that HP/Compaq will include only LCDs for their entire [home]line starting Q1 2004. You can ditch the LCD (buy without a screen) and get a HP/Compaq CRT, but You'll have to buy/order it separately.

I haven't ever bought one of these "market PCs". Do they come in one or two boxes?

Cheers,

Jan