Cheapest way into a quiet PCI-E HTPC

[Stereodude]

What's my cheapest option to get into a quiet (HTPC) PCI-E system?

I'd like to have a PCI-E x16 nVidia 7600GT for my HTPC. Currently I have an AGP system with a AGP 6600GT. Right now that system has a 1700+ T-bred that's OC'd to 2gHz at the with 512 meg of DDR.

I figure I need a new power supply, CPU, RAM, cooling solution, and the 7600GT.

For the motherboard I need support for 4 IDE devices, and 4 PCI 33Mhz 32bit slots (for 2 HDTV cards / Chaintech AV710 [sound] / 1 gigabit ethernet ) or 3 if the mobo has built in gigabit, or 2 if it has a decent built in sound card solution (capable of bit perfect output via kernel streaming) and built in gigabit.

I assume some AMD system is my best option, but I don't know which socket is my best bet. Suggestions?

 

[Stereodude]

This looks like a pretty good motherboard for what I'm looking at.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130491

What would be a good inexpensive cpu with very quiet cooling to couple with this?

 

[Handruin]

That board looks good, but my only concern would be the fan on the northbridge chipset when it comes to satisfying your need for a quiet machine. You might want to consider putting a passive heatsink on it to remove that extra noise.

Also, take a look at the gigabyte rendition of the 7600GT. The passive heatsink might appeal to you for noise concerns. I don't know if that fits into your buget, but the price seems on-par with other 7600GT's. The killer might be its two-slot design...especially if you need all 4 PCI slots.

 

[Stereodude]

Actually, I was looking at this video card.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814127217

It also is a 2 slot card, but it has HDCP support, which is needed if you want to play nice with Blueray or HD-DVD in the future.

I think I can get by with a card like that since the mobo has built in gigabit ethernet, so I'll only need 3 PCI slots (assuming I don't use the built in audio) or the USB audio built into the Pioneer receiver I'm getting.

 

[Buck]

The hardware pick certainly meets your needs. For me, the only drawback would be that everything is MSI. I have come across more motherboard failures from MSI than other brands and I've had some AGP power issues with MSI/nVidia video cards causing stability issues. I certainly hope others have had better experiences with MSI.

 

[Stereodude]

I have a couple MSI motherboards right now and don't have any problem with them, so that doesn't concern me.

I was looking at a San Diego core 3700+ (s939)which is $96 at newegg. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103622

Should I be looking at Socket AM2 instead?

Would I get any benefit from going dual core?

Or, on the crazy end, should I just spend more money and get a Core 2 Duo system?

 

[Stereodude]

It looks like all of these onboard sound solution (realtek 850) won't do bit perfect SPDIF output, so I need to keep my Chaintech AV710 in the system, which means I need 3 usable PCI slots. That means with the MSI HDCP 7600GT card Socket AM2 boards are out of the question because they seem to only have 3 PCI slots and one of them will be blocked by the graphics card.

 

[Stereodude]

It also looks like the only other S939 mobo that meets my requirements is this Foxconn model http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813186037

 

[Buck]

I have a couple MSI motherboards right now and don't have any problem with them, so that doesn't concern me.

I'm glad you've had such good success with MSI.

How about the DG965WH Intel motherboard available here.

 

[Stereodude]

How about the DG965WH Intel motherboard available here.

It doesn't support enough IDE devices, but otherwise it looks alright.

I'm currently not real excited by the prospect of spending ~$600 to do this "upgrade", and it looks like if I go Intel Core 2 Duo or AMD X2 this thing is just going to spiral further out of control.

If only the AGP version of the nVidia 7600GT supported all of the Purevideo features, then I would only need a new video card...

 

[Handruin]

I don't know if it's worth mentioning but today I contacted newegg to request an RMA for my BFG 7950GT. I've been noticing a few things I didn't like about it that my previous two ATI cards proved to be better.

First, the display of normal non-hi-def video files is terrible on the 7950 if you scale them even slightly more than their standard size. This is something I've normally done on my previous two ATI cards and never had a problem with the resolution. I understand that scaling a video past its native size warrants some degradation of quality, but this was really bad. Not to mention the colors and contrast were very bad until I spent an hour messing with the custom display options...even then I'm still not happy with the colors. If all you want to play is HD content, the card does a nice job of this. I downloaded a few WMV and QT HD files and they looked terrific. But all my other videos sucked in comparison where they normally didn't on the ATI cards I own.

Second, the font quality is no where as sharp & clear as the previous two ATI cards I've owned. I'm using the same monitor and DVI cable and I can't get used to the odd coloring of the text quality. I've played with ClearType and non-ClearType but I can't get it right. I normally used ClearType on my previous two ATI cards and it looked fine. Now I get an odd gray/blue coloration at the edge of some text characters. It's very minimal, but I know it's there. I noticed it the most when I tried using photoshop and I wanted to tear my eyes out because the fonts just wouldn’t look right to me.

One more con that only slightly annoys me is the binary nature of the fan unit. It doesn't seem to scale as temperatures rise, it simply decides that 100% speed is required and runs until the card cools down enough...then it resumes at a quite spin. This burst of speed made me open the side case the first time I heard it because I thought something happened to the CPU fan...but alas it was the supersonic blower of the video card.

On the positive side, this card plays games like no other I've seen. I haven't been able to make it choke one bit on the gaming front at a decent 1600x1200 resolution with full AA and all the other goodies.

I'm going to send the card back and try an ATI. I'm sure Merc is saying "I told you so" but sometimes I need to learn it for myself.

 

[Buck]

My ATI X1800XL is getting pulled out of my system because the fan is either in quiet mode or at 100%. I'm swapping it for a Gigabyte 7600GS -- speedy and quiet.

 

[ddrueding]

That's an interesting problem, handruin. Have you tried the Omega drivers, or an older set? I don't have this problem on my 7900GTs, 1900XTXs, or 1600XT.

 

[Stereodude]

That is interesting Handruin...

My 6600GT scales video very well. I don't see any of the issues you're describing. I installed Gainward's Expertools (even though I don't have a Gainward card) to take care of fan noise in my system.

 

[Mercutio]

The 6100-based onboard video seems to make more color banding when upscaling video, in my opinion. I can't really say anything about fonts, since the only thing I have 6100s connected to are old 17" monitors.

Depending on usage, a 3700 or 3800 is could very well feel more like an upgrade than a dual core chip. Since you're talking about an HTPC, the only real dual core usage I could see would be media encoding, and many HTPCs will have either specialized hardware or some kind of background-optimized software for that, anyway.

 

[ddrueding]

It's funny you should say that Merc. Every time I build a decent machine for someone else it gets an X2 because that is the thing to get; every time I build a gaming rig for myself I get a single-core 4000+, because deep down, I know I'm not a power user.

 

[Handruin]

The GIGABYTE GA-M55plus-S3G Socket AM2 seems to fit into your specs...even though it has onboard video, it does have a reasonable price, it's AM2, has 4 PCI slots, 4 EIDE and 1 PCIe, and it even has a few SATA connections. You might be able to find a low wattage AMD chip and run it passivly to avoid noise.

 

[ddrueding]

That's the motherboard that I'm planning on getting for my new machine. I plan on using an X2 4200+ (65W) with it. There's theoretically a super-low power version of the 3800+ (35W, IIRC), but I haven't seen it for sale anywhere.

 

[Buck]

That is the same motherboard I've been using for my AM2 solutions.

 

[Stereodude]

The GIGABYTE GA-M55plus-S3G Socket AM2 seems to fit into your specs...even though it has onboard video, it does have a reasonable price, it's AM2, has 4 PCI slots, 4 EIDE and 1 PCIe, and it even has a few SATA connections. You might be able to find a low wattage AMD chip and run it passivly to avoid noise.

That motherboard is pretty sweet. Putting a graphics card with a dual slot cooling solution in the PCI-E 16x slot doesn't block any of the PCI slots, and it even has firewire built in.

Unfortunately, I think my upgrade budget just evaporated for a month or two as I'm now in the process of buying a $1500 (MSRP) Pioneer Elite receiver...

 

[Stereodude]

I thought you folks would get a kick out of this one. I posted a question on nVidia's site asking about the Purevideo support of the AGP 7600GT (it's cheaper than building a new system). Here's what happened.

I wrote:

Does the AGP version of the nVidia 7600GT GPU support all of the same Purevideo features as the PCI-E version of the 7600GT as shown in the following Product Comparison chart? http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo_support.html

I am specifically interested in the Inverse Telecine and Bad Edit Correction for High-Definition Content that no AGP card (other than the AGP GeForce 6800 Ultra) supports.

Thanks

They replied:

Hello,

Thank you for contacting NVIDIA Customer Care.

As I understand you wanted know whether both Geforce7600 GT AGP and PCI-E card supports features.

I would like to inform you that AGP and PCI-E are the two technologies for better bandwidth and data transfers. PCI-E x16 means that its 16 times greater than the AGP system bus. The Performance will be always better on the PCI-E when compared with AGP.

If the available slot on the motherboard is only AGP, then there is no alternative other than to stick to Geforce 76000gt.

But the chipset supports all the features on both AGP and PCI-E version since the model number of the chipset would remain the same.

Please find out from our partner graphics card manufacturers to check if they have Geforce 7600 GT AGP with 512 MB of memory.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/support_oem

Please get in touch with us for further queries.

Regards,

NVIDIA Customer Care.

I replied:

Thanks for the response, but this doesn't answer my question.

There is a comparison chart here ( http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo_support.html ) listing which Purevideo features are supported by each of the various nVidia GPUs. It seperates them by AGP or PCI-E. The AGP version of the 7600GT is not listed on the chart.

I want to know what Purevideo features are supported by the AGP 7600GT. The PCI-E 7600GT is on the list, so I wondered if the AGP and PCI-E versions have the same Purevideo feature support. For example, the AGP 6600GT and the PCI-E 6600GT both support the same Purevideo features. The same is true for both version of the 7600GS (AGP & PCI-E).

Thanks

They replied:

Hello,

Thank you for contacting NVIDIA Customer Care.

Thank you for your mail.

From the chart we have Geforce 7800GT with PCI-E version which supports the Pure video features. If it is not listed under the AGP version it does not support it.

So please ensure if you are very specific about the features you may have to upgrade it to PCI-E.

Regards,

NVIDIA Customer Care.

I replied:

Of course the AGP version of the 7600GT (not the 7800GT) supports Purevideo. The chart just hasn't been updated yet. Hence why I started this question.

Notice this page http://www.leadtek.com.tw/eng/3d_graphic/overview.asp?lineid=1&pronameid=287 has Purevideo listed as one of the major features of the 7600GT.

I'm just trying to figure out which of the Purevideo features it supports.

They replied:

Hello,

Thank you for contacting NVIDIA Customer Care

Thank you for your email.

As mentioned earlier all the 7series of the card supports the Pure video. Please check the link below for the features included in the list.
http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo.html

Also if you click on the supported video card it shows only the PCI-E express version. But If you go for Geforce 6800 you have all the supported features with the AGP version.

Regards,

NVIDIA Customer Care.

It's mind boggling...

 

[Stereodude]

The plot thickens...

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=115338

 

[CityK]

I saw your same post on AVS ... I feel your pain in regards to their inability to answer direct and simple questions ... its so sad that these were human responses ... as, its bad enough having to deal with the endless loops in automated response systems, let alone retarded human interaction

 

[Handruin]

Wow, that is really annoying. Just keep asking the same question until they respond. See how many times you have to ask it.

 

[Mercutio]

nVidia lies and anally rapes puppies.
I know this without needing any kind of chart at all.

Actually, that would not be a chart I'd want to look at anyway.

But I'll bet someone at nVidia would.

 

[Stereodude]

Today's development...

Further thickening...

I wrote:

Is anyone actually reading and understanding what I'm typing? It sure doesn't seem like it judging from the responses I'm getting. It is possible I can get a technical contact at nVidia who can actually answer my question?

I know all the 7 series cards support Purevideo. But, they don't all support all of the parts of Purevideo. See the chart. http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo_support.html

Notice the lower end 7 series cards don't have support all 16 parts of Purevideo whereas the higher end 7 series cards do?

I am trying to find out which of the 16 parts of Purevideo are supported by the AGP version of the 7600GT. There is an AGP version of the 7600GT (see http://www.leadtek.com.tw/eng/3d_graphic/overview.asp?lineid=1&pronameid=287 ). It's not listed on the following chart http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo_support.html That doesn't mean it doesn't support Purevideo. It means the chart isn't updated yet. I am trying to find out what will end up in the chart when it gets updated. My question is simple. Will the AGP version of the 7600GT support the two missing features (High Definition Inverse Telecine and High Definition Bad Edit Correction) that the AGP 7600GS doesn't have?

I got a reply that I can understand:

Hello,
Let us research this and get back to you. we'll also try to have this page updated as well to make it easier next time.
When are you thinking about buying your next card?

Best regards,
David

 

[Stereodude]

The finally updated the page after my pestering them:

http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo_support.html

 

[Stereodude]

I guess I'll be buying an AM2 equipped system in the future. The motherboard Handruin linked to looks pretty good. Now if AMD could get out more of their low wattage processors...

 

[Handruin]

ddrueding found the low wattage X2 4200+ (65W) at newegg in this post. That might be overkill for what you need...just thought I'd point it out. I think he mentioned it earlier in this post, but I don't know if it was available at that time.

 

[ddrueding]

The 65W 3800+, 4200+, and 4600+ were all available at newegg; but I wanted the 35W 3800+...nowhere to be seen

 

[Sol]

It seems like it's the same as with the 3500+ 35Watt model, no one has them. Try doing a google search on the model number for the standard CPUs (ADA3500BOX or ADA3800BOX) and you get a stack of hit for sites selling them, do the same with the ADD3500BOX or ADD3800BOX and you get absolutely no pages at all. I managed to find about 2 stores online that may have listed the 35Watt parts in the past but no one with any in stock anywhere in the world.

AFAIK all the ATI X1X00 series card support all the features of avivo. I would think that that would make even an X1300 or X1400 an ideal video card for a cool quiet video playback machine... Even my laptops X1400 supposedly supports all the features, although I can't use some of them since it refuses to let me use un-customised drivers... Still that's not an issue you'd have in a desktop.

One problem I foresee with any AM2 platform system at the moment is that there doesn't appear to be any after market coolers available for AM2 so your stuck with whatever AMD ship with the thing as far as noise goes...

 

[ddrueding]

AMD shuips their typical aluminium fin cooler with a decent-sized fan on it. I suspect I'll be able to run without the fan by undervolting my 4200+ 65W.

I purchased some Scythe Katana CU coolers what work with AM2, but it won't quite fit in my Antec Aria

 

[Mercutio]

Sol, I've found that the Omega drivers for weirdo laptop versions of graphics chips usually enable those features.

 

[Handruin]

One problem I foresee with any AM2 platform system at the moment is that there doesn't appear to be any after market coolers available for AM2 so your stuck with whatever AMD ship with the thing as far as noise goes...

Sol, there are actually more than you might think. The Heatsink companies have retro fitted their existing lines with the addition of a new back plate or mounting harness. I do know that even Thermalright has 3 units that fit AM2 to date.

The stock cooler is actually reasonably quiet...at least the one which shipped with my X2 4600+ is barely noticable in an antec P180. I was going to buy an aftermarket, but there isn't any need for it as far as I can tell. Even the temperatures are reasonably fine at 42 degrees C under 100% load on both cores and the fan is super quiet (subjective of course).

 

[Sol]

Well that's good to know, the retailers, even online ones in the UK appear to be pretty clueless. Everyone over here pretty much buys HPs or Dells and enthusiasts don't seem to have a lot of choices so I've yet to see a single after market option for AM2, if thermalright have 3 out though I'm sure that silence is entirely possible, I'm a huge fan of their heatsinks.

Mercutio, I actually thought of the omega drivers right after my last post and went and grabbed them, I'm going to try installing them now and see what I can get.

 

[ddrueding]

...I'm going to try installing them now and see what I can get.

And considering we haven't heard from him since, I'm guessing he got a BSOD. :rotfl:

 

[Stereodude]

So, what are the quietest powersupplies out there (excluding fanless ones)? I see ThermalTake has some rated for only 16dB, but they're higher wattage than I'm looking for.

 

[Stereodude]

I wanted the 35W 3800+...nowhere to be seen

You can get it for a scant $400. I'd deal with the extra power draw and pocket the extra money.

 

[ddrueding]

Seasonic makes a nice 350W with a 12cm fan.

 

[ddrueding]

You can get it for a scant $400. I'd deal with the extra power draw and pocket the extra money.

But the lower heat would be really nice...