dSLR thread

[udaman]

Wow, that sounds like a huge improvement since it's a 14 MP sensor. Who makes the sensor? It isn't Pentax or Samsung's is it? I am going to guess Sony.

Speaking of low noise at high ISO, check out the last few shots from the D300 sample gallery. Not bad:

http://www.dpreview.com/gallery/nikond300_samples/

one to 1 & 1/2 stop improvement, that's subjective. you'll note that on the dpreview of the D300, all 4 of them have the same DR, just a matter of what they are better at one end or the other, highlights or shadows, at respective ISO.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08012312pentaxk20dhandson.asp

The biggest new feature to appear on the K20D is the upgrade to a new 14.6MP CMOS sensor co-developed with Samsung (and manufactured by Samsung).

Wouldn't be Sony, take a look at ISO 6400 for the A700 compared to the D300, while neither is great (desperation shots only in comparison to the nice D3 shots @ISO6400), clearly the D300 is doing a better job than Sony in processing. Haven't seen K20D @ISO6400, but considering how poor the Samsung PnS sensors are, wouldn't get my hopes up.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond300/page30.asp

One area that might be debatable on the D300 review from dp, is that the Sony LV maybe the best yet in the newly released entry level dSLR's---they use pentamirror instead of prisim, rather than the D300's. (will be interesting to see how Sony's LV implementation works on their FF high-end model they may release later this year)

 

[udaman]

The all new 5D---real soon

Found this thead rumor hilarious...$3.5k, crap, it had better be a better FF than the D3, for that kind of $$$!!! So where's the world's smallest, thinest, compact FF 3D for $1k or less ?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=27125455

 

[ddrueding]

I could use something in the 15MP range...

 

[udaman]

^how so? why not 21, or 24MP that Sony will have later this year?

 

[ddrueding]

I don't need 21 or 24. But I do like to have prints in the 24x36 range, and 15MP is plenty for that.

 

[Piyono]

I think I'm probably going to get that damn K20D.

Reports are consistently indicating that its got an extra stop, stop-and-a-half, in noise performance vs the K10D despite the pixel boost. I don't care about the megapixels but the better noise performance would be really nice. This seems pretty believable considering they make ISO 6400 available on boost now (the K10D packed it in at 1600).

And despite the fact that there are no autofocus improvements, a lot of people are saying SDM lens AF is faster. AF performance is something you get a lot of inconsistent reports on though, so I'm not expecting too much.

Have you read this article on AnandTech?

 

[mubs]

The Link

I'm savin' my shekels!

Get in line, bud! I already sold Tea to a circus; they paid the advance, and rest of the money I get when I ship Tea to them.

One of these days I'll start a new thread to pick people's brains about what lenses to get with it.

 

[udaman]

Get in line, bud! I already sold Tea to a circus; they paid the advance, and rest of the money I get when I ship Tea to them.

One of these days I'll start a new thread to pick people's brains about what lenses to get with it.

I would wait until they release a FF version of the D300 (as one of the Nikon marketing execs hinted at for the near future), which should blow any Canon product out of the water. Then you could take full advantage of their new, most excellent $2k 24mm T/S lens.

 

[mubs]

Why would I want to emulate your obsession with TS lenses?? I have no need for those kinds of lenses.

 

[Stereodude]

Have you read this article on AnandTech?

I don't think I'd be relying on Anandtech to review cameras.

 

[udaman]

Why would I want to emulate your obsession with TS lenses?? I have no need for those kinds of lenses.

Ignorance is bliss. Get one and *use* it before you condemn them as useless, just like a Mac with it's superior OS, lol. You sound like dd with his M$ indoctrination/brain wash

 

[Gilbo]

Have you read this article on AnandTech?

Wow. They really like it. They like it a little too much... I wouldn't trust Anandtech by themselves, but I already pretty much know how the camera is going to perform. I'd be pleasantly surprised if the AF is noticeably better though; I wasn't really counting on that.

Udaman,
Yes, I'm sure ISO 6400 is going to be pretty frickin' terrible, just like ISO 1600 is on my K10D... But I'm not a pixel peeper, so I don't really care as long as I can get the shots that I want at a reasonable quality, and a cost my wallet can stomach.

Do you realize that If I bought a D3 I could only upgrade every 4 years, buying Pentax I can buy a new camera every year and spend less... If I was a pro it might be different, as an avid hobbiest... meh. I'd rather go to town with Noise Ninja and loose a little 'micro detail', and, hell, actually get the shot rather than wait for the camera I 'need' to arrive.

Oh, and yes, it's a Samsung sensor. My suspicion is that it's also a Samsung sensor in the E-3 (whose sensor manufacturer is undisclosed so far as I know), although with even greater pixel density. There are remarkable similarities. Olympus claims they were able to significantly increase photosite size by making circuit & layout changes to the chip, without decreasing the number of photosites relative to competing sensor designs. Pentax, equally, claims that the photosites on the K20D are as large as current 10-12 MP cameras due to circuit & layout cleverness. Coincidence?

Past Samsung sensors were noisy, I'm not surprised it became a development priority for them. Whatever they did, it seems to have worked adequately for my needs.

 

[Gilbo]

Ignorance is bliss. Get one and *use* it before you condemn them as useless, just like a Mac with it's superior OS, lol. You sound like dd with his M$ indoctrination/brain wash

Give me a break. A PC lens is a very specialized tool that is a finicky pain in the ass to work with - even for serious pros and fanatical amateurs.

Yes, they're cool. No, 99% of people don't need or want one. I guarantee that many of the owners of PC lenses don't ever even use them. The best lens is the lens you use to get the shot most of the time.

On that note Sony did a very respectable job with the 16-105mm f/3.5-5.6. What a tremendously useful focal length range. And very sharp at the wide end for landscapes, compromised in the corners wide open at focal lengths used more for people photography.

I wish I had something like that for my Pentax. We're getting a 17-70mm f/4.0, which should be nice, but I'd sacrifice a little image quality for more range on the telephoto end. Oh well. Greener grass and such... No way I'm buying a Sony anytime in the near future.

 

[Tannin]

A PC lens is a very specialized tool that is a finicky pain in the ass to work with - even for serious pros and fanatical amateurs.

Agreed. To get anything worthwhile out of it, you need to take a lot of time over the shot, and fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. I'm still a long way away from mastering the use of mine, though I've done the odd nice thing with it. In fact, it's one thing that propells me towards a 5D or a 1Ds III - you really, really need to be able to see what you are doing and a crop camera viewfinder isn't the right tool for that. But I'm damned if I'm going to buy a 5D just to use with one lens, and a specialty lens at that.

 

[e_dawg]

My suspicion is that it's also a Samsung sensor in the E-3 (whose sensor manufacturer is undisclosed so far as I know), although with even greater pixel density. There are remarkable similarities. Olympus claims they were able to significantly increase photosite size by making circuit & layout changes to the chip, without decreasing the number of photosites relative to competing sensor designs. Pentax, equally, claims that the photosites on the K20D are as large as current 10-12 MP cameras due to circuit & layout cleverness. Coincidence?

Yes, I believe so. Everyone says it's a Panasonic 10 MP nMOS sensor as before. Just version 2.0.

 

[mubs]

Ignorance is bliss. Get one and *use* it before you condemn them as useless, just like a Mac with it's superior OS, lol. You sound like dd with his M$ indoctrination/brain wash

Gimme the money and I'll buy one, use it and report back.

You need to change suppliers, Uda.

 

[Piyono]

I don't think I'd be relying on Anandtech to review cameras.

I'm not saying they're the new DPReview; I'm just offering theirs as an informed opinion. More informed, at least, than the opinion of one who's not used the camera at all.

 

[Tea]

Yeah, OK, Piyono, but which existence?

 

[e_dawg]

On that note Sony did a very respectable job with the 16-105mm f/3.5-5.6. What a tremendously useful focal length range. And very sharp at the wide end for landscapes, compromised in the corners wide open at focal lengths used more for people photography.

Hmm... quite admirable performance. Looks like it really gives the Sony/Zeiss 16-80 a run for its money and it's cheaper to boot.

I wish I had something like that for my Pentax. We're getting a 17-70mm f/4.0, which should be nice, but I'd sacrifice a little image quality for more range on the telephoto end. Oh well. Greener grass and such... No way I'm buying a Sony anytime in the near future.

That means Pentax will have a whole bunch of similar zooms with overlapping focal lengths and speeds:

16-45/4
16-50/2.8
17-70/4
18-55 kit lenses

The 16-50/2.8 seems like a Tokina lens, but it's nice that Pentax/Tokina (like Canon and Olympus) is building a nice range of medium speed f/4 zooms and compact primes to cater to the semi-pro market, unlike Nikon, who seems to favour either slow consumer lenses or big f/2.8 pro lenses.

 

[ddrueding]

The Canon 18-55 IS kit lens is getting pretty good reviews...I'm thinking about it.

 

[e_dawg]

Considering the 18-55/IS as a substitute / complement / upgrade to what lens, and for what types of shots, may I ask?

Yes, it's a good value for the price, but perhaps you would be better served by something like the Tamron 17-50/2.8 instead? It's fast, sharp, and relatively compact. The AF is fast, if a bit noisy. It doesn't have IS, but it is 2 stops faster than the 18-55/IS at the long end, which essentially yields the same improvement as IS does, but has the added benefit of being able to use a faster shutter speed, thereby being able to prevent subject motion blur in low-light.

Similarly, there is something to be said about expanding your focal length capabilities with a nice superwide or tele zoom. The Canon 10-22, Sigma 10-20, and Tokina 12-24 come to mind for superwides.

 

[ddrueding]

It would be a replacement for my current 18-55 (non-IS). It is a great general purpose "walk around" lens, the IS would help because these are all handheld shots.

The 10-22 is the next lens on the list. I'm trying to put together a list of lenses I want in Russia, so far it looks like this:

10-22
18-55 IS
50/1.8

I don't think I need anything particularly long, as these will be portraits/landscapes. I don't think I'll need a Macro for the same reasons.

So far all of my lenses are Canon, so I hadn't considered the 17-50/2.8 or the 10-20. What am I getting/giving up? What are people's opinions on non-OEM lenses?

 

[Gilbo]

Yes, I believe so. Everyone says it's a Panasonic 10 MP nMOS sensor as before. Just version 2.0.

Ah. That would make more sense. It completely slipped my mind that Panasonic made their previous sensors. I should have remembered what with the whole Leicasonic partnership...

(By the way I would love to see a review of the Leica 14-150mm f/3.5-5.6! I'm very curious. My only experience with a Leica zoom is with the lens in my Panasonic LX1, a lens that continuously amazes me considering it's a point & shoot.)

What are people's opinions on non-OEM lenses?

There are a lot of very good 3rd-party lenses out there. And then there are some mediocre ones. There are very few (any?) genuinely bad lenses around these days - just mediocre and better.

I own a Sigma 100-300mm f/4.0. I can't believe how high-quality a piece of glass it is - from image quality to durability. The damn thing is phenomenal (heavy though ). Back when I was shooting Nikon I had a Sigma 15-30mm ultra-wide. It was also good quality (not in the same league as the 100-300 though). I've also used a Tamron 18-250mm which was impressive considering the compromises required by the focal length range.

So overall, I've had only positive experiences with 3rd-party glass. But it's important to recognize that I've done my due diligence. Tamron & Sigma are the extent of my experience though, and they both make some absolutely killer glass. Of course they both make mediocre glass too , but so do Nikon & Canon. Overall, I'd say that in the mid-range there's a lot of 3rd-party glass that's better than the OEM stuff for any price limit that you set. At the bottom I don't think you gain much, and at the top, well Canon & Nikon's top of the line stuff is hard to compete with, but anything less than that and it's a very competitive market.

More specifically, for your needs, by all accounts Tamron's 17-50mm f/2.8 and the 28-70mm f/2.8 are outstanding. Both go toe-to-toe with Nikon & Canon equivalents. The SLR Gear review shows it to be practically indistinguishable in terms of image quality (better in some cases). You don't get IS though. Bodies with in-body IS can make much more flexible use of 3rd-party lenses I find, since so many of these lenses lack that feature.

 

[ddrueding]

Tamron's 17-50mm f/2.8 is a $450 lens.

Canon's 17-55 IS is a $175 lens.

 

[e_dawg]

Tamron's 17-50mm f/2.8 is a $450 lens.

Canon's 17-55 IS is a $175 lens.

You mean the 18-55/IS? The 17-55/IS is more like $975.

The Tamron 17-50/2.8 is optically one of the best standard zoom lenses under $1,000 and is fast too. The 18-55/IS is f/3.5-5.6 and the Tamron is f/2.8. That's a huge difference on the long end. Yet, for all that, it's pretty compact and light at only ~400 g. You can get it for $410 (B&H for $420 plus $10 rebate). I'd say that's a bargain.

 

[e_dawg]

BTW, have you heard the rumour on the new 5D II?

15 MP CMOS sensor with up to 25,600 ISO
29-point AF
6 fps
Live View + 3" 920k dot LCD
Custom lens front/back focus adjustment
Weather sealing

Launching June 2nd for $3,500

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=27125455&changemode=1

 

[ddrueding]

Thanks for the tips on the 17-50/2.8. I'll have to have a closer look at it.

The 5D II looks promising. Going to a FF sensor would help my lenses on the wide end (10mm + FF = goodness).

 

[e_dawg]

The 5D II looks promising. Going to a FF sensor would help my lenses on the wide end (10mm + FF = goodness).

Unfortunately, no 10-xx mm zoom works on the FF body. The widest you can go is 12 mm with the Sigma 12-24.

Don't know if I would call 10-12 mm EFL goodness, though... At that focal length on a FF body, composition will be difficult. You will have perspective and volume distortion challenges to deal with that 18 mm on an APS-C body will not have prepared you for.

 

[ddrueding]

That's right, I forgot the Canon 10-22 was an EF-S.

I have no doubt it would be challenging, and I have no doubt that I would take horrible pictures with it. But it would be a fun toy to play with.

 

[e_dawg]

So far all of my lenses are Canon, so I hadn't considered the 17-50/2.8 or the 10-20. What am I getting/giving up? What are people's opinions on non-OEM lenses?

The 3rd party lenses seem to have more issues with QC and focus accuracy / precision / reliability, especially in low light. Usually, most of them are fine, but you tend to get more "lemons" than with the manufacturers' lenses. Sigma seems to be slightly worse than Tamron and Tokina in that regard from what I've seen.

Another drawback is that their resale value is not as high. While you may get 70-80% back for a used Nikkor or Canon, used 3rd party lenses often fetch 50-70%.

Having said that, most of my lenses are 3rd party, and most of them are Sigma I've had one Sigma worthy of lemon status, and one that I returned because I was unsatisfied with its performance.

Here's a list of my 3rd party lenses:

Sigma: 10-20, 15-30, 24-60/2.8, 50-150/2.8, 50/2.8, 24/1.8
Tamron: 17-50/2.8, 28-75/2.8
Tokina: 12-24

My favourite lens of the bunch is easily the Tamron 17-50/2.8. I used to really like my Sigma 10-20, but I wanted something a little longer overall as my single lens travel solution. I ended up switching to the Olympus 11-22 (equivalent to a 15-30 on an APS-C body) for the Olympus, and the Tokina 12-24 for my Nikons.

I just bought the Sigma 24-60/2.8 for a big discount from Cameta, but it seems to be a lemon. Useless at f/2.8 and f/4. Noticeable corner blur, but twice as bad on the left side of the frame where it extends almost half way into the frame. The AF is so bad at 24 mm that I only got one shot out of 7 in focus.

The Sigma 30/1.4 I bought a year and a half ago was just not sharp in the corners until you stopped it down quite a bit. I didn't like the IQ compared to the Nikon 35/2, so I returned.

 

[ddrueding]

Thanks for the info, e_dawg. Shame about the 30/1.4, that would be a great Tango lens...

 

[e_dawg]

NP. If you can get a stellar copy of the 30/1.4, it can be quite satisfying in low light. Problem is that even a good copy can be a bit blurry in the corners from f/1.4 to f/2.8 (which, frankly, is to be expected somewhat at those apertures), and if you get an average lens or one that's very slightly below average, you fall into that trap where it's not bad enough to return it, yet it's not truly satisfying either.

If you don't mind taking a chance that you might have to send the lens into Sigma to get it recalibrated / realigned, or returned to the store for another copy, it's worth a shot, as very few lenses are that fast at that focal length.

 

[Piyono]

Yeah, OK, Piyono, but which existence?

Drat, I knew my "location" field entry would catch up with me sooner or later. And now here I am without a shrewd elucidation.

Busted.

 

[Tea]

Crikey! You can spell "elucidation", that's good enough for me. I'm not sure exactly where the elucidation is, or whether you can get there by train, but it's probably better than moving to Canada.

 

[LunarMist]

Judging by the 1Ds MK III, I would not expect anything spectacular from a theoretical 5D II. High ISO performance may be a stop better, but the boosted ISOs of the newer DSLRs are video ugly.

June would be an odd time for Canon. New DSLR introductions are traditionally at PMA or late summer, usually from the third week of August to PK if there is one.

 

[e_dawg]

I could see Canon and the other mfrs making an exception this year to push cameras out before the Olympics so they can capitalize on it as a promotional opportunity.

If they make an early announcement, it's not like they have to launch right away or have units on the shelves... I wouldn't put it past them to engage in a little vapourware strategy to pre-empt buyers from looking at other brands since people might be getting frustrated waiting for the 5D's successor.

Oh, and rumour has it that they stopped production on the 5D several months ago

 

[udaman]

I could see Canon and the other mfrs making an exception this year to push cameras out before the Olympics so they can capitalize on it as a promotional opportunity.

If they make an early announcement, it's not like they have to launch right away or have units on the shelves... I wouldn't put it past them to engage in a little vapourware strategy to pre-empt buyers from looking at other brands since people might be getting frustrated waiting for the 5D's successor.

Oh, and rumour has it that they stopped production on the 5D several months ago

Push cameras out before the Olympics? Then they would have to be already in design mockup, spec's already considered. Then they need to have them field tested before production model runs, all this before the Olympics, in time for people to get their hands on them...not likely. Unless you are speculating about higher MP, upgraded pro models coming out by June at the latest such that a larger pool of pros can get these high end dSLR's before the Olympics. Otherwise pros with just stick with what is most reliable and already on the market, cause they get paid $$$ for the shots they make, not the ones that are missed because they are not familiar with a new camera system and its limitations. No pro sports photographer is going to use a 5D, even if it's 6fps; the 1D MkIII has too many features that make taking correct pictures faster, easier.

The 5D's successor/update/downgraded 3D have been the subject of vaporware for years now . On thing is for certain, they won't sell very many of them $3.5k, if that rumor holds true---which I"m rather suspicious Canon would be so foolish to attempt. And the longer Canon waits, the sooner they'll be to the point that Nikon releases a FF/FX version of the D300, which surely would be priced well below $3.5k. Who knows how quickly Sony brings their 24MP sensor into their own top-of-the-line model (not before the Olympics)...want to guess how much it will cost?


As far as the consumer market, dSLR or PnS, I can't see anything manufacturers would have up their sleeves that they could have 'marketing' dept. trump in such a way to significantly increase sales around the time of the summer Olympics. In other words, I don't see any logic in that.

 

[Piyono]

I'm not sure exactly where the elucidation is, or whether you can get there by train, but it's probably better than moving to Canada.

I, being without elucidation, would not know how it compares to Canada. Israel and Canada, however, I could discuss.

 

[LunarMist]

I could see Canon and the other mfrs making an exception this year to push cameras out before the Olympics so they can capitalize on it as a promotional opportunity.

IME Canon only advertizes the P&S or cheapie Rebel DSLRs on TV. The better bodies are advertized in print, but hardly worth

 

[ddrueding]

Although the pictures aren't technically any good, I think the thing that I was trying to capture is beautiful in this series of photos.