DST change, oh how I love thee

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
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No one has mentioned it here so I don't know if anyone cares, but running around and applying DST patches at client sites over the last couple weeks and the weeks to come is one of those happily lucrative things that is going to wind up make my contracting year.

Here's Microsoft's site on the issue:
http://support.microsoft.com/gp/dst_topissues

Note the hilarity that even Outlook 2007 is impacted.

Linux systems generally have a kernel patch.
Java needs its own update (annoying since several of my customers have custom apps that depend on Java v.ancient).
Apps like Act and Crystal Reports also need patching.

It all adds up to lots of easy paid time.
 

Tea

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Deaough ... and here was me thinking it was something that mattered and which, for some reason, I'd never heard of. Now I know why the initials are unfamiliar: they are (a) unimportant and not computer-related - I was imagining that it stood for Distributed SomeThing-or-other-nasty - (b) typically arrogant American. Any other country would remember that there is such a thing as Therestoftheworld and call it (e.g.) AEDT (Australian Eastern Daylight Time) so as not to confuse people.
 

Tannin

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Don't mind Tea. You've hit her sore point. She gets really, really anoyed at the arrogant, pig-headed insistence American software companies have on pretending that there is no such place as Therestoftheworld, except insofar as extracting money from it matters. Example numero uno: Windows installation. Micro$oft absolutely, positively insist that you must, repeat must buy Windows from their local distribution arm, at a locally inflated price (of course). This, they explain, is because they go to a lot of trouble and spend a lot of money to customise local distributions to suit local customers.

This is, of course, complete, unvarnished, 100% pure wallabyshit. They do no local customisation whatsoever. Zip. Nada. None. Customisation budget for Microsoft Australia: US$000,000.00. In Australian dolars that works out (roughly) to zero. So actually, you could use any version of Windows, they are all exactly the same.

But if you buy Windows from some other part of the world (e.g., Canada, because it's cheaper), they write you a nasty letter explaining that if you ever do it again they will fire off a salvo of corporate lawyers at you and tie you up in court for the rest of your natural life, if any.

Meanwhile, you get the benefits of their "locally customised" Windows install CD, which is (surprise, surprise) actually the same CD they distribute to all the other countries in the Asia-Pacific. And you guessed it, it defaults to American English. So you have to:
  • Select Australian English (click, scroll up, wait (because the scroll routine is broken and it takes a while) select, and click again).
  • Go to the 3rd tab across and select Australian English again on the Unicode page.
  • Select Australia from the country selection menu (some serious slow scrolling here, unless you know the keyboard shortcutclick to take you to Afganistan, which is then a shorter distance to the one you need).
  • But wait, there's more .... You'd think after you have selected your Therestoftheworld location three different times in three different places already, that that would be enough for even the stupidest, most arrogant of American software companies. Nope. Now that you've told it where you are three times, you have to tell it where you are.
  • Time-zone: Click, huge scroll down, and it insists on scrolling every single line o n e l i n e a t a t i m e until you get to the location you have already told it to use three times now. And there is still more ...
  • Default language. Hey, didn't we already select our language? Yup, four times so far. But you have to do it again because telling a Micro$oft product what you need four times in a row isn't enough. Now you have to change the default language because .... how did we guess ... those arrogant bastards in Seattle think you want to use American English even though you have already selected a different language and place four times in a row. You have to remove American English as default language, and even this isn't as easy as you might think (unless you know what you are doing) as it obstinately pops back up again in the language selection window every time you press OK because the language doesn't change until you reboot and the language selection routine is broken and keeps on displaying the deleted language. I've seen people go around and around and around 10 times trying to delete US English.
 

Tannin

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Now, repeat the above for every system you work on.

Every single system.

Like five or six time a day, on average. Every day. Every fuc*ing working day for more than a decade.

And then you wonder the first senior Micro$oft executive to ever show his face around my place is going to be here for several hours after they take me away and lock me up, because it's going to take him about that long to find his technicals.
 

LunarMist

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That is a good thing considering the literacy level of a typical user in PST. ;)
 

Tannin

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Mate, I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't for the bare-faced lies they tell about "local customisation" in order to get away with a restraint of trade that, if it was practiced only in Australia (as opposed to having effect in Australia but taking place in several places spread around the world so that it's difficult to establish jurisdiction) would be very clearly illegal under any of several fair trade acts.

I wouldn't mind so much if their broken installation software was at least smart enough to say things like "OK, he's selected Australian English and location Australia, 90% of Australians live in the AEST zone, so let's take a guess and defaiult to that".

I wouldn't mind so much if I wasn't drunk. No, wait, I'm not drunk, havent had a glass of anything for weeks (other than tea, of course) ... make that I wouldn't mind so much if I was drunk. Or maybe I would.

But mostly I wouldn't mind so much if I was listening to the satisfying sound of my boots and a senior Micro$oft exec's technicals squishing.
 

Tea

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One of us was going to say "good luck to you, Merc, nice to see you make an easy dollar for a change" but then we got sidetracked by Tannin's big rant. Anyway, good luck to you, Merc, nice to see you make an easy dollar for a change.
 

P5-133XL

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I don't understand the big deal.
Won't just setting your clock fix it?
So what if the computer doesn't automatically adjust?

Tell that to the person, that because of the switch, their alarm clock was an hour off, making them an hour late, resulting in getting fired.

Tell that to a customer, that because of the switch, was undercharged or overcharged for some service. All because a billing computer was off by an hour.

Tell that to the employee that was short-changed in his or her paycheck because of the changeover that was not done correctly.

...
 

Tannin

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I understand that it was originally introduced (at least in several parts of the world) to save power. For reasons that escape me, households tend to use less power with daylight saving as compared to without. Or used to, whether that is still true or not I don't know. But if it is, your country, of all the countries in the world, cannot afford to be doing anything that will increase still further its disgraceful energy consumption.
 

Howell

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Tannin, You really should be using an answer file for your windows installations.

And speaking of gluttonous energy consumption, It was revealed this week that Al Gore spends over $3000US in electricity. A month. Just electricity.

In case you have been under a rock this is the same Al Gore who is the local US enviro-hero. The same former vice-president who ran for president. The same who won a frickin' Oscar for that piece^h^h^h^hile of horseshit movie.
 

Howell

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Tell that to the person, that because of the switch, their alarm clock was an hour off, making them an hour late, resulting in getting fired.

Tell that to a customer, that because of the switch, was undercharged or overcharged for some service. All because a billing computer was off by an hour.

Tell that to the employee that was short-changed in his or her paycheck because of the changeover that was not done correctly.

...

Lawyers love it when they get sued for missing hearings.
 

time

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Damn! I had to look that up ... :(

You're getting scary, Coug.

And 'Lazarus', that sort of BS is out of fashion now. Get with the program, son; the man ain't important but the issue sure as hell is.

BTW, I haven't seen it and I don't feel any pressing need to do so. My household is pretty inefficient because we have electric cooking and hot water. And 3 tons of air conditioning (I really need 5). And no insulation whatsoever.

That's because building standards are a bad joke here - my old house had insulation, gas cooking and solar hot water (and less A/C). I absolutely, positively can't afford to do anything about it for the foreseeable future.

So sue me for the premature end of the world. :(
 

Tannin

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Hi Howell, three points:

(1) That does not excuse the appalling and dishonest behaviour of Micro$oft in this regard.

(2) I've experimented with a variety of automation methods, but have never yet found one that is worth half the trouble it takes to administer. If you have a suggestion that works for you, I'd be very pleased indeed to give it a whirl. Being able to set and forget would save me a phenomenal amount of time.

(3) Al Gore spends zero on non-renewable energy, greenhouse-creating energy. If you are running 100% solar (or etc) you can use as much as you want without harming anyone. (Mind you, I wouldn't mind spending US$3000 a month on everything: food, fuel, taxes, the lot.

(4) In what significant respect is the movie wrong? OK, I already know the answer, and I imagine from the tone of your post that you are going to go into a flat-earth denial mode, so another thread would be appropriate if you want to respond to that. Better to respond by suggesting a workable automation method. (Merc is always on about Sysprep, but I've spent any amount of time looking at that one and it simply doesn't work for my operation, which is obviously a good deal more varied than his.)
 

Mercutio

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Howell, you'd probably be surprised to know that there's a world that is not described in its sum and total by Fox News and FreeRepublic.com.
When you live in a home with, oh three times more rooms than an average three bedroom house, you shouldn't be surprised when the bill for electricity (average bill was $1350) is likewise about three times higher. That's math. It's not hard.


To return to the actual topic at hand, the truly crappy thing is that those Windows XP machines that don't get patched for whatever reason are going to keep setting their clocks back to the wrong time and will re-set themselves on the "old" DST dates (so there will be a "real" change and then a second one which is not) because of the internet time service. Servers that don't get patched will eventually stop allowing logins because their clocks will be more than an hour off from client PCs, a no-no on a Windows network. Calendar apps will be wrong, Email timestamps will be wrong, databases that include a datestamp will be screwed up.
For that matter, even stupid stuff like PocketPC-based phones are going to have issues with this.
 

Tannin

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BTW, I've pretty much stopped using airconditioning. I've never had it at home, and rarely switch it on at the shop. And trust me, Ballarat is hotter than Brisbane. (In summer. Not in wintr, obviously.) Not a long way off in the humidity stakes either, this year - which itself, by the way, is yet another signpost on the way to significant climate change. Southern Australia is developing a subtropical-style climate now: for the past decade or more we have been way down on winter rain (because the rain band has been pushed south by warming) but getting airflow down from the north.)

(Before you leap into outrage mode, Time, remember that I've just got back from FNQ again. I know what your climate is like.)

Also by the way, I can't count.
 

Mercutio

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Better to respond by suggesting a workable automation method. (Merc is always on about Sysprep, but I've spent any amount of time looking at that one and it simply doesn't work for my operation, which is obviously a good deal more varied than his.)

You can get a tool called setup manager. Setup Manager makes an .INI file which, if present with your Windows install file, lets you specify default configuration options including language, locality, keyboard type and even the product ID.

nLite will also generate an even more customized install. You can easily add driver packs, patches and make dozens of tiny tweaks to your initial install, like turning off the search assistant, defaulting control panel to classic view or removing Media Player.

Sysprep is still a better and faster deal for me, since I can go ahead and wrap up applications in my install/restore file. That saves me from doing repetitive stuff like installing Acrobat, Firefox and the full array of anti-spyware stuff. It's really not that hard to set up. You just need the very most basic control: keep buying motherboards with the same chipset manufacturer. It is a worthy investment of your time, Tannin.
 

Mercutio

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MS has an update for XP SP2 and Server 2003. Older things are not supported or need a manual fix. I have many clients who are still using Windows 2000 on the desktop and several others that only have 2000 Server.
 

Pradeep

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I believe most of the MS patches are broken in some way, at least for automatic fixing of Exchange accoutns.

Basically the new DST timing screws up calendering with Exchange. And anything else that keeps track of it's own time. Backups. Oracle. A farkload of stuff needs to be patched.

It's worse in terms of effect than y2k, of course no big doomsday scenarios have hit the media ;)
 

.Nut

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For Windows 2000 users (or earlier versions of Windose), use the utility TZEDIT.EXE -- which is available on the Windows Resource Kit CD-ROM or at Microsoft's website. Otherwise, you will have to hack the registry to change the start/stop Daylight Saving Time dates and times (PS: notice that I said Saving, not Savings).


Tea said:
...Distributed SomeThing-or-other-nasty - (b) typically arrogant American...

Every year there are daylight saving time changes made somewhere in the world. I get notices about this stuff regularly. One recent DST change I recall was for one of the time zones in Australia.



Will Rickards said:
I don't understand the big deal.
Won't just setting your clock fix it?
So what if the computer doesn't automatically adjust?

This is just one scenario: You perform data backups on a backup server. The backup server or one of the systems that is being backed up does not change time at the instant when DST goes into effect. The result is a screwed up backup database -- as far as time logging goes.

Of course, you could use a time server to keep proper system time on all servers, network-attached devices, and workstations. Or, you could just quit using "local time" as your computer time standard and use so-called "Zulu Time" or Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) -- which is the easiest way to deal with an enterprise that exists in multiple time zones. Zulu Time does not observe Daylight Saving Time, thus avoids the problems associated with these idiotic time shifts.



 

sechs

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Every year there are daylight saving time changes made somewhere in the world. I get notices about this stuff regularly. One recent DST change I recall was for one of the time zones in Australia.

What the f' are the commonwealth games anyway? A cricket tournament or something?
 

Stereodude

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(3) Al Gore spends zero on non-renewable energy, greenhouse-creating energy. If you are running 100% solar (or etc) you can use as much as you want without harming anyone. (Mind you, I wouldn't mind spending US$3000 a month on everything: food, fuel, taxes, the lot.
Incorrect... Algore spends a ton of money on non-renewable greenhouse creating energy and then buys "imaginary" carbon offsets from his own company to make up for his "use". See http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070227/NEWS01/702270382 and http://www.ecotality.com/blog/?p=350
 

LunarMist

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So for those of us not making a buck off of the IT resource requirements, and not intersted in the politics, what effect is there? Can I just run Chronos as usual or will the files all have incorrect dates if read by a future computer?
 

ddrueding

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They will all have the correct dates, the worst-case scenario is that it will be off by one hour, for about a month. Most home users won't even notice or care.
 

Mercutio

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Incorrect... Algore spends a ton of money on non-renewable greenhouse creating energy and then buys "imaginary" carbon offsets from his own company to make up for his "use".

Al Gore takes an amount of money equal to his energy expenditures and invests it in companies that are researching renewable energy. How dare he do something like that!
 

Howell

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Hi Howell, three points:

(1) That does not excuse the appalling and dishonest behaviour of Micro$oft in this regard.

(2) I've experimented with a variety of automation methods, but have never yet found one that is worth half the trouble it takes to administer. If you have a suggestion that works for you, I'd be very pleased indeed to give it a whirl. Being able to set and forget would save me a phenomenal amount of time.

1) I really don't care about "M$"'s intercontinental politics. I am sorry you've given MS such control over you.

2)Lookup "OEM Preinstallation Kit". Nevermind, unless you've gotten more patient since 8/05 you won't want to put in the time.
 

Howell

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Al Gore takes an amount of money equal to his energy expenditures and invests it in companies that are researching renewable energy. How dare he do something like that!

Less than 100% of the money Al gives to the company goes toward research. Some of that money goes to overhead. Someone much better than me at reading financial statements could give you a more precise percentage.
Giving money for research in renewable energy is good thing. Al is unnecessarily consumptive in his lifestyle.
 

Howell

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Hi Howell, three points:

(3) Al Gore spends zero on non-renewable energy, greenhouse-creating energy. If you are running 100% solar (or etc) you can use as much as you want without harming anyone. (Mind you, I wouldn't mind spending US$3000 a month on everything: food, fuel, taxes, the lot.

I made a mistake. As Merc pointed out, Al spent an average of $1,359/month on electricity; more than the average household spends in a year.

In total for 2006, Al spent nearly $30,000 on electricity and gas.
 

LunarMist

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I made a mistake. As Merc pointed out, Al spent an average of $1,359/month on electricity; more than the average household spends in a year.

Where is the average so low? About $300/month is typical for ordinary 3-bedroom home, nothing fancy. I suppose it depends on where one lives.
 

ddrueding

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Here in the temperate part of CA, where no one bothers installing A/C and a fireplace is enough for all but the coldest January, electicity bills are easily $500/mo. This winter was colder than most, and my parents (2 people, 3br/2ba house) exceeded $1,100 in January. They don't even have central forced air heating.

I think that average is a bit low IMHO.
 
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