DST change, oh how I love thee

[Stereodude]

Al Gore takes an amount of money equal to his energy expenditures and invests it in companies that are researching renewable energy. How dare he do something like that!

How is investing in companies researching renewable energy compensating for his extreme waste when he wants the rest of us to cut back? Especially to the point of actually reducing his "carbon output". This sound way to familiar to the indulgences of the middle ages and the Catholic Church.

I should start a website and sell calorie offsets. You can eat as much food as you want, but pay me and I'll sell you a calorie offset so you don't gain weight. Please...

 

[Stereodude]

Here in the temperate part of CA, where no one bothers installing A/C and a fireplace is enough for all but the coldest January, electicity bills are easily $500/mo. This winter was colder than most, and my parents (2 people, 3br/2ba house) exceeded $1,100 in January. They don't even have central forced air heating.

I think that average is a bit low IMHO.

$300 a month is high for electricity for an average home in Tennessee. You can heat a house (gas + electric) in Michigan (where it is actually cold in the winter) for less than $300 a month. Of course Algore's 10k square foot house isn't exactly average. I honestly couldn't care less about how much electricity he uses. My problem is that he wants the rest of us to cut back on how much we use while he increases his uses and buying some imaginary "indulgence" from a company he's the chairman of the board to make himself "neutral".

 

[Handruin]

Wow, I'm no where near $300/month for electricity. My last bill was $89 for the month. In the summer it may get around $120-$160/month, but never close to $300.

 

[Pradeep]

Here in the temperate part of CA, where no one bothers installing A/C and a fireplace is enough for all but the coldest January, electicity bills are easily $500/mo. This winter was colder than most, and my parents (2 people, 3br/2ba house) exceeded $1,100 in January. They don't even have central forced air heating.

I think that average is a bit low IMHO.

How do your parents heat? If they are heating with inefficient electric heaters, then I could see the bills being that high. If you live in a cold region, you can't beat the efficiency of gas (or wood).

We heat with natural gas via a high efficiency forced air unit, and even for the worst months of the winter in Upstate NY, the bill wouldn't exceed $350. Gas stove/oven, hot water heater, dryer. Electric is around $70 per month, $110 in the summer with the central A/C on.

 

[Howell]

Back on the original topic:

The newsletter of the Los Alamos National Laboratory recently reminded employees to reset clocks on coffeemakers that are programmed to start brewing while the owner is waking up, showering or dressing. The nation's most vital atomic secrets, it seems, should not be entrusted to scientists running low on java.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/02/AR2007030201346.html?referrer=email

 

[Bozo]

Electric heat is not inefficient. For every dollar you spend on electric heat, you get a dollars worth of heat. All the heat produced is used to heat the room/building. 100% efficient.
Any kind of heat that has a chimney, is less than 100% efficient as some of the heat goes out the chimney. Very carefully try to touch the metal pipe going from a gas/oil heater to the chimney while the unit is running.

Electric heat is more expensive per unit of heat produced.

Comparing utility bills from one part of the county to another is pointless. Utility rates can vary from one county to the next, let alone state to state. And, the type and quality of construction makes a big difference. I've rewired homes here in Pa that have no insulation in the walls and maybe 3" in the attic. These homes were built in the late 40's early 50's when fuel oil was $0.06 per gallon and A/C in a home was unheard of. Comparing the utility bills from one of these houses to one built in the last 10 years is like comparing bananas to dog food.

Bozo :joker:

 

[Howell]

I've experimented with a variety of automation methods, but have never yet found one that is worth half the trouble it takes to administer. If you have a suggestion that works for you, I'd be very pleased indeed to give it a whirl. Being able to set and forget would save me a phenomenal amount of time.

I've had another idea. You should look into Winstall (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/257718).

I've only used Winstall 7.5 but I think this lite version will get you where you need to go. It is immensely useful on networks with no SMS server.

 

[Stereodude]

What's wrong with putting something like Atomic Clock Sync on your PCs? (assuming a constant internet connection)

 

[Pradeep]

Electric heat is not inefficient. For every dollar you spend on electric heat, you get a dollars worth of heat. All the heat produced is used to heat the room/building. 100% efficient.
Any kind of heat that has a chimney, is less than 100% efficient as some of the heat goes out the chimney. Very carefully try to touch the metal pipe going from a gas/oil heater to the chimney while the unit is running.

Electric heat is more expensive per unit of heat produced.

Comparing utility bills from one part of the county to another is pointless. Utility rates can vary from one county to the next, let alone state to state. And, the type and quality of construction makes a big difference. I've rewired homes here in Pa that have no insulation in the walls and maybe 3" in the attic. These homes were built in the late 40's early 50's when fuel oil was $0.06 per gallon and A/C in a home was unheard of. Comparing the utility bills from one of these houses to one built in the last 10 years is like comparing bananas to dog food.

Bozo :joker:

I wouldn't go just on age of the house. Mine was buiult in 1917, and is well insulated. My gas forced air unit uses a piece of plastic PVC pipe for it's exaust. Around 96% efficient.

My mistake, electric is efficient, just expensive in terms of cost. Unless you happen to live somewhere where it is abnormally cheap, for example a certain town near where I live runs it's own power company, homeowners bills are usually around $50 per month, that's with electric heat in the winter.

 

[jtr1962]

Electric heat is not inefficient. For every dollar you spend on electric heat, you get a dollars worth of heat. All the heat produced is used to heat the room/building. 100% efficient.

Actually if you have a heat pump system you can get 2 or 3 times the heat per unit of energy used compared to resistance heating. And electric heating can be more efficient regardless if you only have one or two people in a home, and they just heat whatever rooms they're in rather than the whole house. Don't forget that even with oil or natural gas there is some ancillary electrical usage to operate the boiler plus either the pumps for a hot water system or the blowers for a forced air system.

As for Gore's electric bills, $1359 represents about 3 to 5 months worth for us, not a year's worth. It depends upon where you live. We locked into $0.124/kW-hr for the next 5 years by changing suppliers. Our old supplier was already up to $0.162/kW-hr, with a good chance of hitting $0.40/kW-hr within a few years, so we feel it was a good move. ConEd charges for use of their lines so the grand total we pay per kW-hr is around $0.21. This is probably 3 times the rates where Gore lives.

Long term we're looking into going solar along with a heat-pump forced-air system. I think within a decade $1/kW-hr will be the norm for electrical rates in big cities so solar will be very economical.

 

[sechs]

Here in the temperate part of CA, where no one bothers installing A/C and a fireplace is enough for all but the coldest January, electicity bills are easily $500/mo. This winter was colder than most, and my parents (2 people, 3br/2ba house) exceeded $1,100 in January. They don't even have central forced air heating.

Wow. I think that I spend ~100 a month for both electricity and natural gas -- and that's mostly the gas. Last month's bill was $85.76. That's three bedrooms, only one bath, and two people.

 

[Pradeep]

That is pretty steep for electric. We pay about 10 cents per kW-hr, including "delivery" charges etc. The rate for just the electric is $0.079 per kW-hr. This is the variable rate, it's possible to lock in at a higher fixed rate. Last year the variable ended up being about $40 cheaper on average (for the entire year).

I think heat-pump systems become ineffective around -15C or so?

 

[Mercutio]

I pay $110/month for my 970 square foot apartment. The average bill for apartments in my complex is supposed to be $45 - $60.
I paid about $250/month for my 1200 square foot house (which was new and energy-efficient), but I had a cathedral ceiling and was paying for things like the water heater that I don't have to pay in my apartment.

Also, I never, ever turn on the heat where I live.

Anyway, electricity is expensive where I live, partly because my power company has to provide power in places like Gary Indiana, where they're more or less prohibited from turning off power for non-payment like six months of the year.

 

[LunarMist]

People who have a lot of gas spend less on electricity.

 

[RWIndiana]

So, if for every dollar's worth of electricity used, you get that much heat? Does that mean that space heaters could be just as efficiently replaced with enough computers to consume the same amount of energy?

 

[ddrueding]

So, if for every dollar's worth of electricity used, you get that much heat? Does that mean that space heaters could be just as efficiently replaced with enough computers to consume the same amount of energy?

Yes. Practically all things that use electricity and don't have moving parts convert nearly 100% of their energy into heat.

Computers, light bulbs, resistive heaters, whatever.

 

[Bozo]

Actually if you have a heat pump system you can get 2 or 3 times the heat per unit of energy used compared to resistance heating. And electric heating can be more efficient regardless if you only have one or two people in a home, and they just heat whatever rooms they're in rather than the whole house. Don't forget that even with oil or natural gas there is some ancillary electrical usage to operate the boiler plus either the pumps for a hot water system or the blowers for a forced air system.
Long term we're looking into going solar along with a heat-pump forced-air system. I think within a decade $1/kW-hr will be the norm for electrical rates in big cities so solar will be very economical.

We have heated and cooled our house for the last 20 years with a heat pump. I just replaced the unit about 3 years ago. To put it bluntly, they SUCK. I would have converted but the cost was astronomical.
In the winter, the air temp comming from the heat pump goes down with the outside temperature. When it's 20F outside it's extreamly hard to maintain 68F inside when the air comming out of the registers is 76-78F. And at that time it never shuts off. We have had ours run for 18 hours straight this passed Feb, and the house was still only 65F. And, during this time the electric "emergency" heat keeps comming on. This is a 14KW electric heater. (60amp x 240v) So any savings you get from the "highly efficient" heat pump just went down the tubes. In the summer it has a hard time keeping the house at 75F when its 85F outside. ( I have 2x6 walls with R22 [6" fiberglass + 3/4" foam] insulation, and 14" of insulation in the attic- R38+; heat mirrored windows and solid wood doors)
If I had the money, I'd have gas or oil with A/C in a heartbeat.

Bozo :joker:

 

[ddrueding]

Holy cow Bozo, that is a LOT of insulation. What longitude do you need to live in that houses were built like that 20 years ago?

 

[Pradeep]

14KW! That's more than my entire house supply (100amps at 120V). My commiserations.

 

[sechs]

I'm curious what your heat sink is. Usually they go some distance underground, where the temperature is relatively constant. So, the outside temperature shouldn't have a major bearing on what the heat pump puts out.

 

[Bozo]

Holy cow Bozo, that is a LOT of insulation. What longitude do you need to live in that houses were built like that 20 years ago?

I live in PA. I built the house 20+ years ago to be energy efficient. Insulations pays back in a very short time.
I would have put a high efficient gas heat in, but at the time it was twice as expensive as the heat pump. And, we don't have natural gas where I live. I would have to buy propane, and have a large 'hotdog' tank in the yard.
All the other houses where I live are the standard 2x4 walls and R12 in the attic.

Bozo :joker:

 

[ddrueding]

Good thinking/planning Bozo. I've been thinking of building a house for quite some time now (floor plans all over my desk for years) and have always thought of 2x6 walls and sound/thermal insulation as obvious value-added things. I was just wondering where such things were standard.

 

[Howell]

We have heated and cooled our house for the last 20 years with a heat pump. I just replaced the unit about 3 years ago. To put it bluntly, they SUCK. I would have converted but the cost was astronomical.
In the winter, the air temp comming from the heat pump goes down with the outside temperature. When it's 20F outside it's extreamly hard to maintain 68F inside when the air comming out of the registers is 76-78F. And at that time it never shuts off. We have had ours run for 18 hours straight this passed Feb, and the house was still only 65F. And, during this time the electric "emergency" heat keeps comming on. This is a 14KW electric heater. (60amp x 240v) So any savings you get from the "highly efficient" heat pump just went down the tubes. In the summer it has a hard time keeping the house at 75F when its 85F outside. ( I have 2x6 walls with R22 [6" fiberglass + 3/4" foam] insulation, and 14" of insulation in the attic- R38+; heat mirrored windows and solid wood doors)
If I had the money, I'd have gas or oil with A/C in a heartbeat.

Bozo :joker:

That seems like a really bad situation. So is there something wrong with your house that you didn't anticipate or are all of your neighbors with less insulation that much more screwed?

 

[Bozo]

That seems like a really bad situation. So is there something wrong with your house that you didn't anticipate or are all of your neighbors with less insulation that much more screwed?

My neighbors are really screwed. Most have electric baseboard heat with minimum insulation. These houses were built in the early 70s when the push was on for 'Total Electric' houses. They got a break from the power company on their rates. They had timers on the water heaters so they would only come on at night. The power company gave them an even larger discount for this.
Then the 'oil crisis' of the late 70s early 80s. All the discounts went out the window.
My house is fine. It was built in 1985. I concentrated on buying the highest efficienty heat/ac unit I could. Heat pumps were relatively new at the time.
I have a propane water heater, stove and cloths dryer. Total utilities runs about $150.00 a month for gas and electric. (2100 Sq foot house)
When the temperature drops below 30F, we use a kerosene heater to suppliment the heat pump. I installed a room AC unit in our up stairs bed room to help in the summer. When I replaced the heat pump 3 years ago, I bought one that is 30% larger than the original. It's better.
But, heat pumps still SUCK.

If any of you ever build/install a forced air anything, insist on tin duct work. The "composition" duct work traps dust, dog and cat dander and is a breeding ground for mold and mildew.

Bozo :joker:

 

[Pradeep]

This may be the next way to go:

http://tech.msn.com/news/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3624039&page=1

Once they cut the prices in half or so.

Cogen in the house, gotta love it (if you have a natural gas hookup).

 

[Handruin]

I certainly think that is a great idea to increase the efficiency of burning fuels. I don't think I'd see much change in my electric bill because it is already fairly low, but I really like the idea that this unit would warm my house AND provide electricity while doing so. Something like this should have been made available years ago for houses. It's not like houses are a new thing.

 

[Bozo]

I'm curious what your heat sink is. Usually they go some distance underground, where the temperature is relatively constant. So, the outside temperature shouldn't have a major bearing on what the heat pump puts out.

Mine is an air to air heat exchanger. It has an outdoor heat exchanger just like 99% of the A/C units you see. A ground loop or a 2 well sysytem would have added ~$4000.00+ to the price tag. I ask the contractor how many under ground systems they had install.....1 in the last 20 years. A contractor that specializes in under ground heat pumps went out of business a few years ago. The extra cost cannot be made up in a reasonable amount of time. And, when you are talking $6000.00 and up for a base system, adding another $4000.00 just puts it over the top.

Bozo :joker:

 

[sechs]

This may be the next way to go:

http://tech.msn.com/news/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3624039&page=1

Once they cut the prices in half or so.

Cogen in the house, gotta love it (if you have a natural gas hookup).

This sort of stuff has been available for many years. The problems, of course, are cost and size. You can get over size, but, then, that costs.

I visited a university that used a natural gas turbine (read: jet engine) to generate electricity, and then used the heat off the process to run boilers to produce steam. This place also had some system wherein steam was used to both heat and cool buildings, but I never quite caught how hot water made anyplace cool.

 

[sechs]

Mine is an air to air heat exchanger. It has an outdoor heat exchanger just like 99% of the A/C units you see. A ground loop or a 2 well sysytem would have added ~$4000.00+ to the price tag. I ask the contractor how many under ground systems they had install.....1 in the last 20 years. A contractor that specializes in under ground heat pumps went out of business a few years ago. The extra cost cannot be made up in a reasonable amount of time. And, when you are talking $6000.00 and up for a base system, adding another $4000.00 just puts it over the top.

This looks like it was a bad choice in systems for you. If you're trying to fight a major temperature difference, heat pumps just aren't very efficient (as you've learned).

 

[Pradeep]

This sort of stuff has been available for many years. The problems, of course, are cost and size. You can get over size, but, then, that costs.

I visited a university that used a natural gas turbine (read: jet engine) to generate electricity, and then used the heat off the process to run boilers to produce steam. This place also had some system wherein steam was used to both heat and cool buildings, but I never quite caught how hot water made anyplace cool.

Yeah, we have cogen at work. An absorption chiller can work with steam to produce chilled water (water and lithium bromide being the usual two liquids), but it's quite expensive compared to electric chillers, at least for capital costs. It can be used to reduce inlet air temperature, to improve efficiency.

 

[sechs]

According to their energy contractor, except in the science labs, nobody used anything except steam to heat *and* cool.

 

[LunarMist]

It's already starting. The calender is off though corrective patches were applied and people are of course complaining. Great.

 

[ddrueding]

I think it's about time to turn my phone off....

 

[LunarMist]

At 1AM is it time to go to bed or go out on the town?

 

[Pradeep]

Yeah the patches didn't really work for the Calendering.

Our advise was to print out your calender for the affected periods, manually change the times of any meetings you are having, and change the title of the meeting to include the time. Then double check each one after the clock moves forward.

 

[Handruin]

I'm working right now to squeeze in all the patches to our VM's...fun fun.

 

[LunarMist]

Yeah the patches didn't really work for the Calendering.

Our advise was to print out your calender for the affected periods, manually change the times of any meetings you are having, and change the title of the meeting to include the time. Then double check each one after the clock moves forward.

Yeah, I heard the same at three businesses already. What, is Microsoft so stupid they never considered that DST would ever change in the future? Savings time return to standard time was dispensed with as recently as the 70s to save fuel. Before that was during WWII wacky DST and DDST, and maybe some times in between that I missed. The last change to DST was only 20 years ago or so. So why aren't the DST begin and end dates of MS and other software coded so that they can be changed the same way other locale-specific features are? I don't get it.

 

[Clocker]

This may be the next way to go:

http://tech.msn.com/news/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3624039&page=1

Once they cut the prices in half or so.

Cogen in the house, gotta love it (if you have a natural gas hookup).

Looks interesting...I wonder how much noise it makes?

 

[Clocker]

Also seems like a good application for the Sterling Cycle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterling_cycle

C

 

[Pradeep]

Looks interesting...I wonder how much noise it makes?

http://www.ecrinternational.com/secure/upload/document/698.pdf

46 dB(A) at 3 feet, not bad at all. I know my furnace makes way more of a racket.

http://www.climate-energy.com/

If the power ever went out, you could at least use this to run the furnace fan, and a couple of lights. Not enough to run the whole house.

Plus 11,000 BTU of heat won't be enough for my house. There must be a preferred range of average winter temps for something like this to make more financial sense.

If they ever produced an upsized model, say a 2400W/22,000BTU model, just think, plug in the plug-in hybrid of your choice overnight.