ddrueding
Fixture
Once batteries hit a range of one thousand miles this will be less of an issue.
Electric Cars
- Thread starter ddrueding
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jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
Actually at about 300 miles range is probably a non-issue. 1000 miles would just by the icing on the cake. By the time most people drive 300 miles, they'll be stopping at least 30 minutes to eat/use the restroom. We'll certainly have 30 minute fast recharge at rest stops once enough people own EVs.
flagreen, besides the energy inefficiency time mentioned, you're ignoring the total cost of ownership of fuel cell vehicles. Generally, the marketplace gravitates towards the cheapest solution which works best for the majority of people. The majority of people rarely drive more than 100 miles at a time. For their daily errands and commutes BEV is a perfect fit. It might not be for those long road trips, at least for now, but there are other solutions. Until BEV range exceeds 300 miles, and we have fast charging infrastructure, it's easy enough to rent a gas car for those infrequent long trips. Fuel cell vehicles seek to solve a problem which largely doesn't exist for 99% of trips. I digress here, but if this country had the foresight to build a national high-speed rail system, then the need to drive long distance no longer exists. HSR reduces cars to basically being shuttles going some tens of miles to/from train stations.
I might however see fuel cells being viable on heavy vehicles ( trucks, buses ), at least until such time as we have suitable batteries. Typically, these vehicles drive hundreds of miles per day. And there's only so much you can do regarding aerodynamics. Any way you look at it, they use a lot of energy per mile. So for now, hydrogen might be the way to go. Or perhaps not if battery tech continues to explode at the current rate. Note also that Russia has used grid-powered electric trucks for years. We could even do something similar. Or just do the more sensible thing and ship all long distance cargo by rail.
ddrueding
Fixture
JTR,
I would consider 1000 miles a mental barrier, rather than a practical one. That is the point where people will not consider it a limitation. Sure, 99% of people will never need 50% of that, but for the average person to not consider it a limitation, 1000 miles sounds about right.
Also, with a 1000 mile range, quick recharging is no longer a factor. Slow charging (50A?) all night most nights will be enough to maintain a good range. Didn't get a full charge last night? No problem, you still have plenty to go wherever you want.
I would consider 1000 miles a mental barrier, rather than a practical one. That is the point where people will not consider it a limitation. Sure, 99% of people will never need 50% of that, but for the average person to not consider it a limitation, 1000 miles sounds about right.
Also, with a 1000 mile range, quick recharging is no longer a factor. Slow charging (50A?) all night most nights will be enough to maintain a good range. Didn't get a full charge last night? No problem, you still have plenty to go wherever you want.
Stereodude
Not really a
Did Platinum suddenly become cheap and abundant today while I was at work? If not Fuel cells are DOA.
The newfangled vehicles should behave similarly to current gasoline-powered vehicles, i.e., somewhere in the 250-400 mile range. 1000 miles is unnecessary for standard applications. The extra batteries would be more expensive and heavier, too.
ddrueding
Fixture
If the new vehicles are trying to be a drop-in replacement for existing vehicles, and requiring the same massive infrastructure of fuel stations, then yes. Instead there could be a smaller infrastructure requirement if vehicles had the added range. I have filled up my car twice in the same day (~900 miles driven), and without a large number of charging stations and quick charging apparatus, this would not be possible with a 400 mile range.
Considering how much less maintenance an all-electric vehicle is going to require, planning on a smaller amount of infrastructure in general seems prudent.
Hauling around all that extra weight and losing efficiency for the <<1% of people who drive 900 miles makes no practical sense. I'm sure an extended-range light truck or SUV would be an option for the long haulers, and maybe even different battery packs will be available for basic sedans. I'm not convinced that ~3x the needed range would ever be economical in standard autos.
ddrueding
Fixture
I'll agree that it isn't entirely practical regardless of the energy densities they may devise. But compared to having a massive number of electric charging locations where the proprietor will not be making the margins they do on gas, many other things are feasible.
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
From what I've read the margins on gas are very slim, something like 10 cents a gallon.
ddrueding
Fixture
I don't doubt it. But consider that gas stations don't need to compete with every one who has a charger at home. The smaller setup costs, smaller safety/health requirements, and idea that they could just hold out and charge at home makes it even more competitive. I know my favorite Fry's Electronics has free 220v chargers in the parking lot, so that could be interesting as well.
I'm not sure what you mean by the 'whole process'. Did you mean the vehicle itself? Or hydrogen production?
I don't know enough about the latter to comment really but I do know there is virtually an unlimited supply of hydrogen available vs. a very finite amount of crude oil left.
1000 miles when fully charged is fantastic. These batteries ever need replacement? What will that cost? How about when the temperature drops down to say zero degrees what is the range then?
For me the range limit is not as much of a concern as is the charging time. Not to mention what the effect on the power grid is going to be when peak usuage increases 100 fold or more. Everyone gets home from work at night and plugs in their buggy at the same time to recharge and they'll be brown outs all across the country. New power plants aren't cheap or fast to build. It takes many years just to get a new fossil fuel plant permitted - Nuclear even longer. On top of that there is the construction time. Besides any increase in the consumption of fossil fuels not only increases the harm to the enviroment but hastens the day when fossil fuels will no longer be available. Then where do you get you juice from?
Unintended consequences are a bitch!
time
Storage? I am Storage!
It's worth spending 15 minutes reading about the Hydrogen Economy:
Free hydrogen does not occur naturally in quantity, and thus it must be generated from some other energy source ... Hydrogen is therefore an energy carrier (like electricity), not a primary energy source (like coal).
In other words, there's only an unlimited supply of hydrogen if you use lots of energy to manufacture it - more unintended consequences.
time
Storage? I am Storage!
These batteries ever need replacement? What will that cost? How about when the temperature drops down to say zero degrees what is the range then?
...
Unintended consequences are a bitch!
I agree with everything you said 100%.
It's worth spending 15 minutes reading about the Hydrogen Economy:
Free hydrogen does not occur naturally in quantity, and thus it must be generated from some other energy source ... Hydrogen is therefore an energy carrier (like electricity), not a primary energy source (like coal).
In other words, there's only an unlimited supply of hydrogen if you use lots of energy to manufacture it - more unintended consequences.
Thanks for the link that's a very informative page. I see what you mean about efficiency; Quoting from the link...
Ouch!
Oh wow. I didn't know that it would be 2 1/2 times as much during it's entire service life. That is a big deal.
This also seems like part of the issue in efficiencies when dealing with hydrogen:
This is a neat little image:
ddrueding
Fixture
Why aren't these two related in your mind?
It doesn't have to be that way. A smart grid could take care of the whole thing; compared to peak usage on a summer day, there is plenty of headroom overnight.
I would consider that a different problem that will have to be solved either way. Even without electric cars, we'll still need to produce a massive number of new power plants to handle traditional demand growth.
Maybe I'm alone but I find waiting for a battery to charge, whether in a phone or a car pretty annoying. Hence my concerns regarding charging time. If I want to go to the store to buy a quart of milk I don't want to have to wait for the car to finishing charging to do it. Particularly if that charging takes overnight.
ddrueding
Fixture
That is my reasoning for having a significantly longer range. With that much extra power reserve, even if you didn't charge last night, you still have plenty of range.
Compare it to your phone; if the battery lasts a week, the time it takes to charge is far less relevant.
Compare it to your phone; if the battery lasts a week, the time it takes to charge is far less relevant.
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
Thanks Doug for the illustration. It neatly shows what time and I have been saying. Another thing I'm thinking here regarding the margins on gasoline also applies to hydrogen. Assuming the margins would be similar, then that's yet another nail in the coffin. I've seen a lot of gas stations here go out of business in the last few years. Apparently that's not a good business to be in. With similar margins for hydrogen, but more expensive infrastructure, you'll probably have few willing to risk capital to start a hydrogen station.
Dave already addressed the grid issues flagreen bought up. As for charging, remember that you don't have to top off your battery every night. In fact, once we get to 1000 mile range ( probably as an option rather than standard ) it would be impossible to "refill" overnight. My guess is eventually users will start thinking a little differently, as in an overnight charge adds 200 miles. No big deal starting out with a 1000 mile battery half full if you're only driving 50 miles that day.
Don't underestimate the appeal of home "refueling". That's really the biggest appeal of BEVs-not needing to waste time diverting to a gas station. Among the people I've talked to, home recharging was the second biggest thing they wished for regarding their car. The first thing ironically was wishing they could just get rid of it altogether.
Dave already addressed the grid issues flagreen bought up. As for charging, remember that you don't have to top off your battery every night. In fact, once we get to 1000 mile range ( probably as an option rather than standard ) it would be impossible to "refill" overnight. My guess is eventually users will start thinking a little differently, as in an overnight charge adds 200 miles. No big deal starting out with a 1000 mile battery half full if you're only driving 50 miles that day.
Don't underestimate the appeal of home "refueling". That's really the biggest appeal of BEVs-not needing to waste time diverting to a gas station. Among the people I've talked to, home recharging was the second biggest thing they wished for regarding their car. The first thing ironically was wishing they could just get rid of it altogether.
Bozo
Storage? I am Storage!
Where I work we use about 15,000,000 kwh of electric per month. We are supplied by two, 3 phase, 69000V lines.
There are times throughtout the year when the power company ask us to cut down to the minimum for 8 - 12 hours. Basically, lighting.
Our electric grid needs some serious updating and upgrading before electric vehicles move out of the nitch market.
ddrueding
Fixture
A smart grid with smart loads would allow for these kinds of alterations without user intervention. I still don't see the problem.
Howell
Storage? I am Storage!
Assuming no connection to the grid. Assuming you capture more energy during productive hours than you can use in a day. What is the best method of energy storage for use as electricity later in the year?
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
ddrueding
Fixture
It depends on how much you want to store and how much space you have. Pumped hydro is very efficient if you have a bunch of space. Batteries are incredibly efficient if you don't need to store very much for vet long. Hydrogen is less efficient but gets around both issues.
A smart grid with smart loads would allow for these kinds of alterations without user intervention. I still don't see the problem.
Famous last words before the big blackout... :bigeek:
ddrueding
Fixture
We don't need electric cars to have a big blackout. Again, that is a different problem.
Plans are to use electric vehicle batteries as the energy storage reservoir. They are talking about charging your vehicle at slack times (night etc.) and then drawing back the electricity stored in your vehicles batteries durring peak hours as needed.
This powerpoint presentation explains it better than I have - http://www.ct.gov/dpuc/lib/dpuc/ev/impact_of_electric_vehicles_on_the__grid_wml_w_video.ppt
It also has some interesting figures on the impact on the power grid of EVs in 20 years. As I recall they based their predicted power demand using Hybrid vehicles. Unfortuantely I didn't see any figures for true VEs, which of course would be much higher.
Bozo
Storage? I am Storage!
A smart grid with smart loads would allow for these kinds of alterations without user intervention. I still don't see the problem.
More capacity is need now, let alone with a few million electric cars added in the future.
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ddrueding
Fixture
More peak power. Recharging EVs is not a peak load. Also, this is a problem regardless.
Howell
Storage? I am Storage!
Ah yes, I forgot about that even though I can look out my window and see one.
And more broadly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
You may have trouble building such a system at a private residence. It would be awesome though.
ddrueding
Fixture
Large bladders in the attic and basement. Would require significant structural reinforcements, and the drop wouldn't be significant (12ft?), but it would be darn awesome.
Edit: Also, if you caputured rain runoff from the roof, your first cycle would be free
Edit: Also, if you caputured rain runoff from the roof, your first cycle would be free
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
Large bladders in the attic and basement. Would require significant structural reinforcements, and the drop wouldn't be significant (12ft?), but it would be darn awesome.
Edit: Also, if you caputured rain runoff from the roof, your first cycle would be free
Can someone with free time calculate if this is practical?
sdbardwick
Storage is cool
Not really practical.
Tank size in meters: 20x15x1 = 300 cubic meters
300 m^3 = 300,000 litres = 300,000 kg
energy required to lift 1 kg 1 meter = 9.8 joules
300 000 x 9.8 x 2meters = 5 880 000 J = 5.88MJ
1 kWh = 3.6MJ
5.88/3.6= 1.633333 kWh
for comparison 1L gasoline = 34.8MJ, so 5.88/34.8=0.169L gasoline.
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timwhit
Hairy Aussie
Does that say you are only dropping the water 2 meters?
That tank sounds huge. I don't think most houses could support 300,000 kg in the attic.
That tank sounds huge. I don't think most houses could support 300,000 kg in the attic.
sdbardwick
Storage is cool
Oops. Yeah 6ft, so double the result for 12ft (4 meters).
Big tank (3 200 sq ft), but mainly chosen for simple math...apparently not simple enough for me.
Big tank (3 200 sq ft), but mainly chosen for simple math...apparently not simple enough for me.
NO. How many attics have 20x15 meters of free space? :roll: