Even better audio from a laptop v. Audio-gd NFB-15.1 + Emotiva Pro Airmotiv 4

[timwhit]

It would be interesting to somehow analyze the music I'm listening to and find what frequency range would be required to fully support it.

You could try this.

 

[ddrueding]

You could try this.

That worked. After converting the FLAC to WAV and running it through, there seems to be relevant data to 8hz. Crap. I know I'm not going that low, what is a realistic expectation? Volume is nearly irrelevant, quality and range are what I care about. Maybe $500 cap?

 

[Stereodude]

That worked. After converting the FLAC to WAV and running it through, there seems to be relevant data to 8hz. Crap. I know I'm not going that low, what is a realistic expectation? Volume is nearly irrelevant, quality and range are what I care about. Maybe $500 cap?

You need to define relevant. Just because there's something at 8Hz doesn't mean it's relevant. If it's 30dB below some content at 30Hz you'll never hear it and there's no point trying to reproduce it. You need to set realistic goals given your budget. There are only really two ways to get solid reproduction into the teens and $500 commercial products don't employ either.

One is a sealed box with a large displacement driver(s) powered by a high power amplifier with a very low frequency high pass filter (like 5Hz). The other is with a very large ported enclosure (like 20ft^3) that is tuned to a low frequency in the 10-15Hz range with a complementary high pass filter. These sorts of products are either DIY creations or a lot more expensive than your $500 budget.

 

[ddrueding]

I figured that is where this would be going. Sticking with off-the-shelf stuff, what should I be looking at? Something that has an adjustable cutoff to match the speakers I assume? Perhaps the mid/low-20s is a reasonable floor?

 

[Stereodude]

Did you look at the Klipsch sub I linked to earlier?

If you want to spend more I'd look at the Power Sound Audio XS15

 

[ddrueding]

Thanks for reminding me about the Klipsch, my memory is even worse with a fever. If I were to keep using the USB soundcard I should just get some RCA splitters to come off the speaker channels? If I wanted to look at something better suited what would you recommend?

 

[Stereodude]

If I were to keep using the USB soundcard I should just get some RCA splitters to come off the speaker channels? If I wanted to look at something better suited what would you recommend?

As long as your sound card has a subwoofer output it's fine. The next step up is a receiver or pre-pro. You would want to use SPDIF or HDMI from your PC to the receiver/pre-pro and then take the pre-amp outputs from that to the subwoofer and Airmotiv 4's.

 

[ddrueding]

The soundcard I have does not have a subwoofer output. That is the direction I would like to go. Do you have a product in mind?

 

[Stereodude]

I'd probably suggest adding a receiver or pre-pro with pre-amp outputs. You can use the SPDIF output from your USB sound card to feed it.

 

[ddrueding]

That USB soundcard will probably be going somewhere else.

First time I've even heard of a Pre/Pro. So I should be looking at a cheaper version of this?

 

[Stereodude]

First time I've even heard of a Pre/Pro. So I should be looking at a cheaper version of this?

Yes, but that's about as cheap as they get not withstanding a few Emotiva products that I can't recommend based on their history of releasing pre-pros with quirky implementations, bugs, and fundamentally flawed "features". There is a cheaper unit from Outlaw, but I have no idea if it's worth getting. You're probably better off getting a mid range receiver from Onkyo, Denon, Pioneer, etc and using the preamp outputs (note not all units have pre-amp outputs).

Also since you're talking about getting rid of the USB sound card keep in mind you need a way to feed audio to the receiver. That means a sound card (or on-board audio) with SPDIF output or a video card with HDMI audio.

 

[fb]

I kind of agree with Stereodude about the next steps, but it's only logical if you've maximized the earlier steps. Otherwise you're just wasting money.

Spend a bit more money on a better sub with a line out. Or - get an even better one with a high pass line out, so you can mix and match the frequencies of the sub with the mid range so they play nice together.

A high pass filter will also improve the mid range, since the 4" woofer won't even see the low frequencies that they shouldn't even try to play in the first place. The mid range also gets more power (=more control) in the frequencies where it matters.

By the way - I don't think the USB soundcard is the weak link in this setup. Keep it and spend more money on the sub.

 

[fb]

That means a sound card (or on-board audio) with SPDIF output or a video card with HDMI audio.

Or get a good digital music streamer that receives the signal over TCP/IP and converts it to music only once. It won't work very good for computer games, but it's great for music.

 

[Stereodude]

IMHO, he needs proper bass management. That means a crossover and variable delays (distance settings). His current sound card doesn't offer that. Even a sub with a pass through / quasi crossover isn't really going to do it right no to mention that will severely restrict his subwoofer choices since a high passed line level out is pretty uncommon.

 

[ddrueding]

The motherboard does have optical out, so that isn't too big a deal. What is crazy is the pricing of things as we talk about this, not to mention the space it would take up. All I'm looking for is a couple DACs and a low (maybe high) pass filter, no? If I just got some splitters off my sound card and sent part to the speakers and part to the sub, would the sub have a low-pass built in?

Seems the cheapest Receiver with analog pre-amp outs for the front channels is the Onkyo TX-NR717. Nearly $700.

 

[Stereodude]

You can get something for a lot less than that. Amazon had the Onkyo 809 as low as $427 last week. The price has been slowly climbing since.

You could get a USB dac / pre-amp like the Audio-gd unit I bought and use a small DSP after that like the MiniDSP with the 2.1 plugin.

 

[ddrueding]

That MiniDSP does look like the secret sauce I'm after, no? I'm hesitant to deal with the waiting and ordering process for that Audio-gd unit; how much would I be losing by getting something from Amazon or Newegg? I've been doing some research on USB DACs, but they all say something stupid within the first paragraph (usually about how the USB cable negatively effected the treble) and I stop reading.

 

[Stereodude]

FWIW, the MiniDSP ships out of China also.

 

[fb]

...no to mention that will severely restrict his subwoofer choices since a high passed line level out is pretty uncommon.

But do you really believe it's a bad thing if it restricts the choices to really good subwoofers?

We have different philosophies about how to reach Audiophile Nirvana. I don't think you can convert me and I'm not going to convert you either.

 

[Stereodude]

But do you really believe it's a bad thing if it restricts the choices to really good subwoofers?

By really good you mean subwoofers with performance that ranges anywhere from ho-hum to poor from long established boutique audio brands that cost an arm and a leg?

Something akin to buying a genuine IBM desktop for $15k when the equivalent clone was $2500. Except for this analogy to line up the clone has much better performance.

 

[fb]

I mean a sub you won't know it exists until you remove it from the system.

 

[ddrueding]

You guys look to just be getting started, I'm going back to bed. Looking forward to the rest of it when I get up.

 

[Stereodude]

I mean a sub you won't know it exists until you remove it from the system.

Please... There are lots of quality subwoofers from non-boutique / audiosnobbery brands that easily meet that criteria. They just happen to give you a lot more value for your dollar.

 

[fb]

I don't care very much about what it says on the sticker, I use my ears. Not that it feels very relevant to this thread about computer speakers.

I think ddrueding asked for a sub that match his Airmotiv 4's? And now we've come to the conclusion that no reasonable priced sub is able to do that without first adding hundreds of dollars worth of electronics in the signal path.

 

[ddrueding]

I think ddrueding asked for a sub that match his Airmotiv 4's? And now we've come to the conclusion that no reasonable priced sub is able to do that without first adding hundreds of dollars worth of electronics in the signal path.

That is kind of the thought I'm having at the moment.

 

[Stereodude]

I think ddrueding asked for a sub that match his Airmotiv 4's? And now we've come to the conclusion that no reasonable priced sub is able to do that without first adding hundreds of dollars worth of electronics in the signal path.

Well, there's lots of ways to half ass it. ddrueding doesn't seem like someone who wants to half ass things. I'm suggesting the right way to do it.

Do you have any free slots in your PC for an actual sound card or do you want something USB or what? Are you just looking to play music or do you need PC sounds?

 

[ddrueding]

I do need PC sounds, and I have some spare PCIe slots (up to 16x 3.0 if needed). I do use the volume control on the front of my current USB soundcard, and I would need something to perform that task. There was a reason you didn't like the Emotiva XDA-2?

 

[Stereodude]

I do need PC sounds, and I have some spare PCIe slots (up to 16x 3.0 if needed). I do use the volume control on the front of my current USB soundcard, and I would need something to perform that task. There was a reason you didn't like the Emotiva XDA-2?

Well, it's not a 2.1 device. It has no bass management or ability to properly drive a subwoofer. Sure you can split the output and send it to your Airmotiv 4's and your subwoofer, but that's not the right way to do it. Heck, you could do that with your USB sound card.

 

[ddrueding]

Right, so I'd still need the MiniDSP you linked above, yes? Would that do it?

 

[Stereodude]

Reportedly Emotiva has factory renewed USP-1's available for $299. link It's 2.1 capable (though a little simplistic).

You would still need a DAC upstream of it, but there are lots of USB or SPDIF capable DACs. You could couple a FIO D3 to your on board sound card if you wanted to do it cheap.

Frankly, I had no idea low end receivers were so devoid of features. You could probably score a few year old pretty high end receiver on craigslist for cheap (relatively speaking) that would take SPDIF in that has pre-amp outs. Something like a Denon 28xx or 38xx.

 

[ddrueding]

Thanks for the link I'll give them a call on Monday.

 

[Stereodude]

I'd still be tempted to find a used receiver like a Denon 2805. It'll do everything you want in a single box. Feed it SPDIF and voila.

 

[ddrueding]

I really don't like used stuff. Too many bad experiences. And too many horror stories from eBay.

 

[Stereodude]

Thanks for the link I'll give them a call on Monday.

Did you end up buying anything to satisfy your quest for a beefier bottom end?

 

[ddrueding]

Nope. Too many other things going, I'll revisit the issue when I can get a couple proper nights of sleep.

 

[Stereodude]

I might get tempted if the Stealth 8's to go on sale though I certainly wouldn't be putting them on my desk at work.

 

[fb]

I hope they have been successful in their design of the Stealth 8's, getting 2 way speakers with 8" woofers to actually sound good isn't easy.

 

[ddrueding]

I might get tempted if the Stealth 8's to go on sale though I certainly wouldn't be putting them on my desk at work.

If you see it let me know.

 

[ddrueding]

Finally got around to sticking a PolkAudio 12" sub under my desk and just wiring it straight into the speaker output. Turned the low-pass filter to the lowest (80hz) and it seems to be doing OK. Can't notice it 95% of the time, it just sounds like the speakers have a better low-end.

 

[Stereodude]

If you see it let me know.

They appear to be on sale through the end of the month $669 each instead of $749.