Even Better PC Audio v. empty your wallet

[Stereodude]

As I alluded to in several other threads I decided to get an even better headphone setup for home listening. Last week I received the base pieces to make this happen.

Source (DAC / Headphone Amp):
Audio-gd NFB-10SE

Headphones:
HiFiMAN HE-500

The result so far is making me very happy. I keep trying to do critical listening with FLAC files, but end up getting lost in the music after a minute or two forgetting about the critical listening part. I guess that's the ultimate compliment. :sunny:

Next up on the agenda is to re-terminate the silver headphone cable for fully balanced operation from the NFB-10SE. I have the Neutrik 4 pin XLR on order from Mouser.

 

[Stereodude]

Not even a courtesy "You're out of your mind" reply...

 

[Mercutio]

I figure I can't throw any stones about audio setups. The speakers in my living room cost more than the MSRP for my car.

 

[Santilli]

HMMM. I guess it won't get you evicted, just blow your eardrums...

 

[ddrueding]

Actually I was grateful you did the research, and am trying to figure out if I want to go that way. I don't think I'm up for swapping the connections to the fully balanced ones, though.

 

[Stereodude]

Actually I was grateful you did the research, and am trying to figure out if I want to go that way. I don't think I'm up for swapping the connections to the fully balanced ones, though.

Why not? It's pretty simple soldering.

You cut off about 1' off the end and leave the 1/8" stereo plug on it. On the headphone side you put one of these 4 pin XLR connectors on the cut end. Then you put this XLR female connector on the cut end with the 1/8" plug. This way you can get back to single ended operation if you want by plugging the two 4 pin XLR connectors together.

I also plan to cut about another 1' or so off the cable and make a 1/4" stereo plug to 4 pin female XLR cable also so I can use the HE-500 single ended with 1/4" equipment without a 1/8" to 1/4" adapter

 

[Handruin]

It sounds like you really enjoy the setup. If these high end components were easier to sample locally it would be appreciated more. I'd love to hear what this setup sounds like.

When I went to the website of the amplifier, I gave up reading due to the how painful it was to look at that site. The amp also doesn't look like much visually but I'm not that shallow to think the looks matter anywhere near as much as how clean it would sound.

I would like to get a nicer headphone setup but getting started in the research has been a bit overwhelming and time consuming for me that I haven't dedicated it enough time.

How many hours would you say you spent reading and researching before you found your buddy who let you borrow the headphones to demo them?

 

[Santilli]

I'm scared. I love good audio.
How would those headphones work on a standard sound card or stereo out?

Do I need 600 dollar headphones?
Are they going to be that much better then the 350 dollar HD 595's?

http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD595-Performance-Premiere-Headphones/dp/B0001FTVE0

 

[Stereodude]

How would those headphones work on a standard sound card or stereo out?

Poorly. They're too inefficient. You wouldn't be able to drive them to an adequate volume.

Do I need 600 dollar headphones?

Only you and your ears can answer that. There is always a point of diminishing returns. That point isn't the same for everyone.

Are they going to be that much better then the 350 dollar HD 595's?

For $350 you should be doing better than HD595's. Amazon has run the HD600's for $260 during lightning deals twice in the past 2 weeks.

 

[Stereodude]

It sounds like you really enjoy the setup. If these high end components were easier to sample locally it would be appreciated more. I'd love to hear what this setup sounds like.

You can always go to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest and attend the CanJam.

When I went to the website of the amplifier, I gave up reading due to the how painful it was to look at that site. The amp also doesn't look like much visually but I'm not that shallow to think the looks matter anywhere near as much as how clean it would sound.

Painful in what way? The Chinglish? The amp actually looks very nice in person. It's elegant in an understated way. It feels and looks very robust. And the sound... :bow:

How many hours would you say you spent reading and researching before you found your buddy who let you borrow the headphones to demo them?

About 0 hours. I knew him from before from local Home Theater meets and the like. He went to RMAF and picked up a demo pair of HE-500s and I saw them when I was at his house. He gave me a quick listen to them while I was at his house powered by an iPod nano. I recognize good sound when I hear it. During the following week I did a little research on them on Head-Fi since I had been interested in a high end pair of headphones for a while but never ended up with anything. After I did a bit of reading I asked if I could borrow them to help decide if I wanted to drop $700 on a pair. A week later and I was convinced I needed a pair.

 

[Stereodude]

Poorly. They're too inefficient. You wouldn't be able to drive them to an adequate volume.

I guess I should qualify my answer slightly. You can get sound out of them with just about anything. However, you can't get close to unlocking their potential. With most devices you will have the volume pushed almost all the way up to get a comfortable listening volume. That doesn't leave you with any headroom and can lead to clipping the output if you run out of voltage swing.

I had my HE-500's shipped to the office and my coworker was impressed with them powered from my Lenovo T410, he also felt my Sansa Fuze did a better job with them (which it does). His jaw will probably be on the floor if hears them powered by the NFB-10SE. :rotfl:

 

[ddrueding]

I remember my first jaw on the floor audio moment. The first set of speakers I'd ever owned was the original 4.1 channel creative labs cubes. Really awful, but I had no idea. My roommate let me borrow his low-end Grados...that was eye-opening. Since then I've slowly worked my way up the line. My UE TripleFi 10 are probably farther off than my ears can appreciate (except the low end, I've never heard speakers that do lower frequencies well).

 

[time]

Okay, I'll bite. What does "balanced" mean with regard to headphones? It can't mean noise reduction, because we're talking volts, not millivolts let alone microvolts.

 

[Stereodude]

Okay, I'll bite. What does "balanced" mean with regard to headphones? It can't mean noise reduction, because we're talking volts, not millivolts let alone microvolts.

It means driving them with + and - voltage not with + and a common ground. Normal headphone wiring only has 3 pins which means the left and right side share a common signal (ground). That means you have only one wire per channel that changes voltage relative to ground. When you rewire to balanced there are now two discrete wires per channel. One has a positive voltage and the other a negative voltage. Supposedly it sounds better.

 

[Stereodude]

HeadRoom has a good visual explanation of Balanced headphones here.

 

[Handruin]

You can always go to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest and attend the CanJam.
Painful in what way? The Chinglish? The amp actually looks very nice in person. It's elegant in an understated way. It feels and looks very robust. And the sound... :bow:
About 0 hours. I knew him from before from local Home Theater meets and the like. He went to RMAF and picked up a demo pair of HE-500s and I saw them when I was at his house. He gave me a quick listen to them while I was at his house powered by an iPod nano. I recognize good sound when I hear it. During the following week I did a little research on them on Head-Fi since I had been interested in a high end pair of headphones for a while but never ended up with anything. After I did a bit of reading I asked if I could borrow them to help decide if I wanted to drop $700 on a pair. A week later and I was convinced I needed a pair.

As much as I would love to go to the RMAF, the trip alone may pay for your headphones. :-D I'd like to find the next step up from my Grados, but perhaps not at the level of your HE-500s.

 

[Santilli]

Why is that amp so expensive?

For 550 dollars or so couldn't you buy a REAL amp, and just plug the headphones into that?

 

[Stereodude]

Why is that amp so expensive?

Because it not just an amp. It has a fully balanced dual DAC configuration. It also has a fully balanced amplifier using only discrete components (no op amps) and uses a non feedback current domain amplifier with R-2R volume control. In the land of headphone amplifiers / DAC's it's not "so expensive". It's actually one of the least expensive ways to go fully balanced from a PC or digital source.

For 550 dollars or so couldn't you buy a REAL amp, and just plug the headphones into that?

Well a "REAL" amp isn't necessarily suitable for headphones, and would be lacking a lot of features.

 

[Stereodude]

My XLR connectors came in today, but I'm a little gun shy about cutting into the stock cable having only used them for a few days. :???:

 

[ddrueding]

My XLR connectors came in today, but I'm a little gun shy about cutting into the stock cable having only used them for a few days. :???:

My wife got me this shirt

 

[mubs]

Your better half is one smart cookie, DD.

 

[Mercutio]

I wish that there were headphones I felt comfortable enough using for dedicated listening. Pursuing a high-end audio experience with headphones is way, way cheaper than buying speakers and components.

 

[Stereodude]

It definitely is cheaper. You haven't found a pair that's comfortable to wear long term or what?

 

[Mercutio]

It definitely is cheaper. You haven't found a pair that's comfortable to wear long term or what?

Yeah. I have a decent set of Sennheiser earbuds that I carry and use when I'm in server rooms or out walking, but I don't care to wear either circumaural or earbuds for any extended amount of time.

But then, I live by myself, so it's not like I have to make a concession to anyone else's comfort, either.

 

[Handruin]

Stereodude, what genre/Artists of music do you listen to most often regardless of format (FLAC/mp3/vinyl)? Is there a go-to arrangement you use to evaluate the different audio devices?

 

[Stereodude]

I listen just about everything except for country music and opera. Trance, Techno, Electronic, Classical, Movie Scores, Pop, Rock, some rap, etc...

I don't have a single go-to track I use to evaluate stuff. I have a variety of tracks I use depend on exactly what I'm trying to test for. I also will usually listen to an album / albums that I've been listening to a lot recently since I'll be familiar with them.

A few of the tracks I use:
Low Frequency Response:
Joe Satriani - Clouds Race Across the Sky

Detail / Texture:
Joe Satriani - The Traveler

Soundstage:
Hoobastank - Moving Forward

Female Vocals:
Vienna Teng - Hope on Fire
Vienna Teng - Gravity
Fiona Apple - Shadowboxer

Decay / Attack / Phase Coherence:
Juno Reactor - Conga Fury
The Bourne Identity Score [John Powell]

 

[fb]

Have you tried to convert to the balanced audio connectors yet?

 

[Stereodude]

I haven't. I will probably hold off on rewiring until the holidays.

 

[Handruin]

Much to my surprise, my girlfriend decided to go crazy and combine my birthday and xmas gift together and she got me a pair of the Grado PS500 headphones. She knows I was trying to win them in a few contests and showed interest in them, but had never listened to them. However, I had let that ship sail and wasn't considering buying them for myself because they're rather expensive and I don't have anywhere local to listen to them.

So I have them now, and I'm not really sure what to think. Looks like Grado has sold over 600 of them because mine was marked as #601. The small amount of available reviews I've found have been very positive so far. Presently I have only one audio device that uses the 1/4" headphone jack which is my Marantz AV7005. I've been using my receiver to test them out with all the CDs I've ripped to FLAC. I never researched the abilities of the AV7005 as a headphone amp because it was never something I expected to use, so I don't even know if it's a good source. I turned on the pure direct mode to disable any audio processing in order to get the cleanest signal I could. The nice thing about the PS500s is that they are fairly easy to drive being a 32ohms. With the rare exception of one or two songs, I've not heard any hiss in them. I also do not need to crank the volume on the receiver. I could use these with my iPhone or any other basic audio device if I wanted to while traveling.

So, here's the thing. I don't know what to expect from these headphones. I have very little frame of reference as I mentioned in earlier posts so I feel like I'm lost in the land of high-end headphone land. I could very well be listening to an unbelievable pair of headphones, or maybe they're garbage when compared to others in their price range. What my ears tell me are they they sound extremely detailed at any volume level. I'm know they sound better than my cheesy iPhone IEMs, and also my Grado SR60s. Since I'm still learning about what is good/bad, I can only base what I hear on what I've already heard. I feel like the bass is different from anything I'm use to. I don't know if headphones require a significant amount of time to break in or if that's just a myth. The included instructions said to give them time to break in and to not let them just play unattended. They are really clear and detailed and the bass can sound slightly stronger than I'm use to, but I guess it's possible that it's the recording that's causing the bass to be more amplified (or my receiver). It may just be that it's different from what I'm familiar with and now I'm hearing it correctly?

I'm considering ordering the FIIO E9/E7 combo to drive these. I have until the end of January to decide due to Amazon's liberal return policy. I'm also considering ordering the Sennheiser HD650 which are near half the cost of the PS500s and compare the two headphones for the next few weeks. Maybe I'll even try the AKG 701s which are slightly less than the Sennheisers. I'll make use of the return policy from Amazon and do my demoing that way. If I can't notice and/or appreciate the differences I'll return the PS500s. I know that there is the diminishing returns on audio devices, so if I can't appreciate it, they should go back. I guess I could try the same HiFiMAN HE-500 that you got since they're in the same price range (a little more expensive) as the PS500s, but I don't know if I can appreciate them like you're able to.

 

[CougTek]

Well if they are a gift from your girlfriend and they are that expensive, then forget being objective about them. Even if it wasn't true, put it thru your thick skull that they are the very best thing you've ever listen to and don't ever word a critic about them. Otherwise, you'll be in big trouble with your wife/girlfriend.

 

[Handruin]

Well if they are a gift from your girlfriend and they are that expensive, then forget being objective about them. Even if it wasn't true, put it thru your thick skull that they are the very best thing you've ever listen to and don't ever word a critic about them. Otherwise, you'll be in big trouble with your wife/girlfriend.

You're probably right.

 

[Stereodude]

Listen to the native French speaker. He has good advice.

FWIW, I don't put stock in break in. I also have no idea why you can't break them in (if it really changes anything) by playing them off your head. The likely truth is that "break in" is really listener adaptation. Listen to even a cheap set of headphones for a while and they will sound good to you. Once you start A/B'ing is when your opinion suddenly changes.

 

[timwhit]

I agree, just keep the headphones.

 

[ddrueding]

Indeed. I bought headphones that I know are beyond my ability to appreciate the difference. How far beyond would require lots of A/B testing with lots of equipment. I sit here happy to know that this is as good as music can sound for me. Now to do the same with the home theater and the car.

 

[Handruin]

Listen to the native French speaker. He has good advice.

FWIW, I don't put stock in break in. I also have no idea why you can't break them in (if it really changes anything) by playing them off your head. The likely truth is that "break in" is really listener adaptation. Listen to even a cheap set of headphones for a while and they will sound good to you. Once you start A/B'ing is when your opinion suddenly changes.

I can break them in with them off my head, they just wrote that in the instructions to have me enjoy the ride while they break in. It never said or suggested it would cause damage. I think it's more like you suggested in that the break in is me adapting to them.

I brought home my Grado SR60s from work and I've been comparing the two a little bit. The PS500s do sound much nicer and more detailed. Interestingly though, I had my girlfriend listen to both and she thinks the SR60s sound better. Lol she felt that the vocals were easier to hear and the other sounds from the bass, guitar, and piano were less prominent. I felt like the instruments were just more noticeable because they sounded so much more detailed. I enjoy the sound of strings plucking and picking in acoustical music.

 

[Handruin]

I agree, just keep the headphones.

I think I will. I'm going to look into different headphone amps/DAC to use with my laptop.

 

[fb]

That's probably a good idead. You should check out the Naim HeadLine, it's "only" a headphone amp and requires one of their power supplies. But the sound should be OK.

By the way, I got the family a pair of AKG K420s but they are still in the box. One plan is to connect them to my old Linn Kolektor preamp that's only collecting dust at the moment. The biggest problem is the source: a Soundblaster Live.

 

[CougTek]

Interestingly though, I had my girlfriend listen to both and she thinks the SR60s sound better.

Wrong, that's a trap she puts for you. See it as like when she ask you if you think she gained weight. Agreeing will only put you in trouble no matter what or how you phrase it.

 

[Handruin]

That's probably a good idead. You should check out the Naim HeadLine, it's "only" a headphone amp and requires one of their power supplies. But the sound should be OK.

By the way, I got the family a pair of AKG K420s but they are still in the box. One plan is to connect them to my old Linn Kolektor preamp that's only collecting dust at the moment. The biggest problem is the source: a Soundblaster Live.

I already ordered the FIIO E9/E7 before you posted the suggestion of the Niam. I'll try out the E9/E7 and if it's no good, I'll look into the Niam Headline. I suspect that since I can't seem to find a price or location, it's going to be expensive.

 

[fb]

I'm sure the FIIO combo is very good. I think the Naim starts around $600-$700 up to $4000 depending on the choice of PSU.