"Fleet computer challenge"

[P5-133XL]

Notebooks for a community college is peculiar to me. Who's going to use them? If students, then you've created an inventory problem. They are going to have to be able to check them out from somewhere because without a specific method of inventory controll they will simply get stolen/lost. Perhaps the teachers/administration is looking at them for their own use (rather than a student lab) and that is why they like the idea: Ain't self-interest grand. If they like the leasing idea rather than purchasing then that option is availiable for regular PC's too and then you wouldn't have to lose a lab and it would save money because PC's are much cheaper than notebooks.

 

[Fushigi]

Notebook vs. desktop in a classroom setting has other benefits. They are generally quieter, consume less power, generate less heat, and are easily moved off the desk when needed. They can also all be unplugged & locked in a regular cabinet/closet easily, making them easier to secure & potentially less theft-prone. Of course, if not locked up they are more theft-prone because of their portability.

For teaching about hardware, it's also good to be able to point to the integration of notebooks & the issues surrounding hot-plug PC Card adapters, battery life / hibernation and the like, other things unique to notebooks, and the tradeoffs vs. desktops.

But the overriding reason has got to be the operating expense vs. capital argument. Most business despise capital investments and would rather incur operating costs, even if they are more in the long run. The accountants are almost always happier with operating expenses vs. capital. Especially if they lack a good asset value depreciation app.

Actually, for Mercutio's use, this could be a good thing. Lease the notebooks for 2 - 3 years then turn them in for new models with the latest goodies and odds are, based on the nature of PC tech, payments will be the same or less.

- Fushigi

 

[Mercutio]

I work for a training company, not a community college. And yes, I've brought up the same concerns regarding notebooks. Also the fact that I don't want to maintain a bunch of them. I don't think they're worth the money in this case, and "loss prevention" isn't in my job description. The one argument in favor is that laptops would make offsite classes easier.

Of course, the instant I suggested laptops, I had four happy voices (all the full-timers) all gleefully spouting about how nice it would be. Self-interest plays more than a little role here.

 

[Buck]

This challenge became more difficult, as memory prices are on the rise. I did however, get a good price on some Gigabyte GA-7DXE boards. Those are the AMD 761 Northbridge with the VIA 686B Southbridge boards. I just ordered a few samples. Two of my Asus boards failed on my. One is DOA and another is flakey. The flakey one sounds like the experiences that Tannin had with ECS.

 

[Tea]

Those GA-7DXEs are nice boards, Buck. They can object to certain brands of RAM (mostly just cheap stuff), there is no user control over core voltage, otherthan that, they are excellent.

 

[Buck]

Those GA-7DXEs are nice boards, Buck. They can object to certain brands of RAM (mostly just cheap stuff), there is no user control over core voltage, otherthan that, they are excellent.

Yes, I've seen you brag about them. As I'm sure you would expect, I'm not interested in overclocking. I'll have to check the memory compatibility though. My memory is not cheap, I just want to make sure.

 

[Tea]

You'll be fine with them, Buck. Very solid boards.Our total number of returns with them, out of about 50: zero.

 

[Mercutio]

I've had no problem with the gigabyte boards I've sold either, but where are you getting 7DXEs at a good price? I'd like to try a couple.
My favorite Gigabyte board is their GA7RXP. The -AXP has a fan on the northbridge that's just destined to live a short life.

I finally submitted a pilot proposal for PCs at a respectable $580 each (XP2000s, 40GB Samsung drives, 48x burners, good NICs etc). Only twelve machines, initially, but I'm hoping that once they see what can be done with the new hardware, I'll get a green light.

Also, I just got a whole bunch of KDS XF-7e displays. For "budget" monitors, they're surprisingly nice. I paid $129 each, including shipping, and that ain't bad at all.

 

[Buck]

I've had no problem with the gigabyte boards I've sold either, but where are you getting 7DXEs at a good price? I'd like to try a couple.
My favorite Gigabyte board is their GA7RXP. The -AXP has a fan on the northbridge that's just destined to live a short life.

I finally submitted a pilot proposal for PCs at a respectable $580 each (XP2000s, 40GB Samsung drives, 48x burners, good NICs etc). Only twelve machines, initially, but I'm hoping that once they see what can be done with the new hardware, I'll get a green light.

Also, I just got a whole bunch of KDS XF-7e displays. For "budget" monitors, they're surprisingly nice. I paid $129 each, including shipping, and that ain't bad at all.

I'm getting these from one of my distributors in California: ASI. At least I'll be able to sell these boards for $69.00, which is a good price considering it is a very competent motherboard. I also like the box, no fancy colors or strange looking creatures depcited on the front - just no-nonsense business stuff. I think these boards will help make good systems with XP1600+ or XP1800+ CPUs (I know they support up to XP2600+ with a BIOS upgrade, but those users usually want USB 2.0, ATA-133, and a higher FSB).

One thing I did like was that the Northbridge is cooled by a heatsink and NO fan.

Mercutio, you price sure did climb a bit, but you can build a very reasonable system for that price.

 

[Mercutio]

I'm going to build a machine I can stand behind. After long thought, I don't think that's a $350 computer. Besides, when I say $600, I've got some room to work down.

I know *my* $600 computer is going to kick the crap out of Dell's or HP's.

 

[Buck]

Good choice Mercutio. Those Gigabyte boards would be great for those new systems.

 

[mubs]

Mercutio,

I read a news item about 3 years ago about SouthWest Airlines. They had to do a desktop refresh, and instead of buying vomit boxes (primary motive was to save money / get more bang for the buck), they built their own in assembly line fashion using as many employees were needed!

Anyway, don't know how far along you are, but is there a possibility you could source directly from a distributor instead of a retailer? Like Ingram or Merisel or the very many 2nd and 3rd tier distributors there? I've come across a few of the latter in California (unfortunately this was a few years ago and I didn't bookmark the sites). Mfr web sites might have a "where-to-buy" link that includes distributors, not just retailers.

Another suggestion is to talk directly with the manufacturer's (U.S.) office; giving them the "training-school" angle might entice them to cut a deal.

 

[honold]

the fact that you can't beat a below-cost nutso coupon-stacking online dell deal by building your own pc has been absolutely beaten into the ground at this point

i understand why people do it - infact, i do it - but don't make false assumptions that you can beat deal in the sub-1k range, because you can't

 

[Tannin]

Huh? So how do I pay the rent? I make my living beating Dell in the under $US1000 market, have done for years. It's routine. Lots of other people do it too.

 

[blakerwry]

I bet it's harder in the US.... Dell seems to not be too good at support outside of the US... which IMO is the only reason to buy them(unless they just have a stellar deal available)

I assume you sell on the lower overall longterm cost of owning a single computer by buying redhill vs Dell... the fact that a redhill PC costs a similar amount and will perform similarly to the Dell, you get local support from a monkey and an owl, and you can upgrade your PC in a year or two for about 1/2 the cost of buying a new PC from Dell every year or two.

 

[Tannin]

Pretty close, Blakewry. I do mostly sell on lower overall long-term cost and our better upgradability (both things which are, I think always true) but we are usually somewhere between $0 and $200 cheaper, typically about $100 (Oz dollars), almost never more expensive, and always deliver a faster, more powerful system. (This last is very easy in most cases: give it enough RAM, don't over-specify the CPU at the expense of other components, avoid on-board video, and don't use ultra-crap hard drives of the U Series variety.) I'm sure that the others here who build systems for people (Mercutio, P5, and Cougtek, for example) could say the same, though the vomit box makers seem to do particularly well in the US for some reason, which probably has to do with different retailing norms (i.e., lots more supermarket places of the K-Mart variety). Beating Dell ain't difficult, it's the small place down the road a bit you have to watch out for.

 

[Tea]

Bahhh ... What a load of rubbish. It's the monkey and the owl that makes the difference.

 

[Fushigi]

Well, Jeez, I'd come just to see the dancing cow. :mrgrn:

- Fushigi

 

[Buck]

(This last is very easy in most cases: give it enough RAM, don't over-specify the CPU at the expense of other components, avoid on-board video, and don't use ultra-crap hard drives of the U Series variety.)

Those items seem to be the key to success 99% of the time. Low-end vomit boxes always skimp on RAM and use integrated video (the worst coming from VIA and ALI). You can always work with your customer by selling your hardware at cost, and charge labor instead. This will reduce the sales tax for the product - something I don't mind minimizing and something the customer would prefer to do without.

 

[blakerwry]

Pretty close, Blakewry. I do mostly sell on lower overall long-term cost and our better upgradability (both things which are, I think always true) but we are usually somewhere between $0 and $200 cheaper, typically about $100 (Oz dollars), almost never more expensive, and always deliver a faster, more powerful system. (This last is very easy in most cases: give it enough RAM, don't over-specify the CPU at the expense of other components, avoid on-board video, and don't use ultra-crap hard drives of the U Series variety.) I'm sure that the others here who build systems for people (Mercutio, P5, and Cougtek, for example) could say the same, though the vomit box makers seem to do particularly well in the US for some reason, which probably has to do with different retailing norms (i.e., lots more supermarket places of the K-Mart variety). Beating Dell ain't difficult, it's the small place down the road a bit you have to watch out for.

That's true, I often see vomit boxes sold with 128MB RAM... running anything more than win98 and you are having to page stuff on bootup... leaving you with only a paltry 15% or so of free RAM. This can lead to some slow computing in alot of cases(esp when packaged with a U series HDD)

If I goto the big chain computer stores and look through their systems I can alway find one or two major problems with their hardware configuration.... but it is never the CPU... they always make sure to over do the CPU...

personally, I would rather over do the mobo because it defines what kind of upgrades you can get and ultimately how long you can use this computer and at what expense and because it is one of the hardest things to upgrade compared to CPU, RAM, video, sound...

Vomit boxes almost always use a mobo at the end of it's lifecycle.. which means that it can almost never take as much RAM, as fast of RAM, or as fast a CPU as a newer mobo.

Not to mention the onboard graphics, sound, and AMR modem that make upgrading alot more expensive and alot more time consuming as you have to research all the new components and setup all the new drivers while trying to make them not conflict with the old drivers.

 

[honold]

Huh? So how do I pay the rent? I make my living beating Dell in the under $US1000 market, have done for years. It's routine. Lots of other people do it too.

you pay your rent by selling your pcs, just like dell. the fact that they sell doesn't mean that they're more cost-effective.

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/mes...10&highlight_key=y&keyword1=lcd&keyword2=dell

tell me that you can sell me TWO 2.4ghz p4/msi motherboard/40x liteon cdrw/128mb crucial/awesome palo-alto case/xp home/30gb/ethernet/1yr on-site warranty/15" samsung lcd/etc for $885. that's two systems, two lcds.

while i respect your position and i wish your business well, i assure you that you'd be out of business if you sold at these rates. it happens all the time with online dell purchases.

 

[Tannin]

I take your point, Honold, but you are citing an exceptional example. (No, I haven't troubled to look at the link and convert it into Oz dollars so that I can compare, I'm sure that you have cited an example where the Dell is indeed very cheap.) However, this is citing an extreme instance. I could cite isolated instances where I (or any other retailer worth his salt) can offer prices far better than Del or HP can offer. Shrug. These tell us nothing.

The key issue is everyday, routine prices, the prices that most ordinary people pay for the vast majority of systems - at a wild guess, something like 80 to 90 percent of them. As I've said before, Dell ain't the competition, beating Dell is easy, we just use something from our regular price list (any something - all our systems are higher-speced and lower-priced than Dell's).

 

[honold]

deals like this do come about on an almost weekly basis; all it takes to get in on one is to know about it (looking at techbargains.com and fatwallet.com's hot deals forum daily does the trick).

i have no metric to compare your everyday prices to dell's everyday prices (especially since dell's 'standard' deals vary so violently from week to week), i trust that you are at a minimum in line with them.

it still illustrates the point that dell (selling at a loss, no doubt) offers superior price/performance than anything you, i, or anyone else could build. locating the deals requires minimal effort, but as most of the public isn't aware it works out to be a great deal - you make money at your shop, and the secret shoppers get great deals. if everybody were to buy in on these (and only these) deals, dell would surely go out of business.

buying a product of theirs does make it infinitely more likely to recommend one to a friend or business (at regular prices), something i do all the time. so they lose a little, then make it back in spades. a great marketing plan until everyone catches on.

i wasn't posting this as any challenge or disrepect to you, just to let people know that it's out there. most people simply assume building is cheaper, but for now it's really not. i still do it anyway because i enjoy the customization.

 

[Tannin]

http://www.storageforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1005 There you will find an everyday price comparison. But in a nutshell, we cream them as a matter of routine. We have to - otherwise the other dealers we compete with would destroy us. (I mean real dealers, not supermarkets selling overpriced vomit boxen.) Dell and the other VB manufacturers sell the vast majority of their product to the unwary at well above the average market price.

 

[mubs]

honold, that specific example of two systems for that price was an error on their website, I believe.

That said, you're right, the average do-it-yourselfer will find it difficult to beat a mass-manufacturers pricing; those guys get volume discounts the single guy doesn't. When I build my systems, I do it for the love of it, like you pointed out, and also for the control it gives me - best of breed components and a top-of-the line system or one most appropriate for the purpose. I bought my first PC in 1991 at a small mom-pop store. Paid $1300 for a 386-20, 640k, smallish HDD (15MB?), 14" VGA CRT, DOS 5.0. All other systems I built, including the duallie I'm typing this on.

One caveat with Dell: if you buy as is, the price is great. Tweak the config and you end up paying almost double. It's happened to me too many times. I'm mainly talking about servers/notebooks here, where you're more limited in what you can do with it after you buy it.

 

[Bozo]

If you've ever dealt with Dells support, any extra you pay to a custom shop is well worth it. At least you have a live person to go to if there is a problem or you need help. I believe that Dells tech support are clinically brain dead.

Bozo

 

[Fushigi]

If you've ever dealt with Dells support, any extra you pay to a custom shop is well worth it. At least you have a live person to go to if there is a problem or you need help. I believe that Dells tech support are clinically brain dead.

Dell's consumer support may well be brain dead, but their business support support has been pretty good in my experience.

My company has standardized on Dell for our desktop/laptop/Windows server environments. Better machines than HP/Compaq and less expensive than IBM. The few times I've had to call on issues have been met with a real person who took care of the issue without having to escalate to level 2; parts were overnighted; no muss-no fuss.

- Fushigi

 

[Bozo]

My experiance is with a corperate account. Their lack of support is one reason we decided to build in-house.

Bozo

 

[Fushigi]

My experiance is with a corperate account. Their lack of support is one reason we decided to build in-house.

Odd. Preferred/large account or small business?

We buy 1000 - 2000 desktop/laptops a year + servers as needed. This year, that's been 80+ servers as we're building a BCP environment.

That is, in fact, too many new servers to have to buy for our size company. So, we are going to start looking at VMWare to do W2K partitioning.

- Fushigi

 

[Mercutio]

For those wondering, I haggled and haggled and managed to get a respectable amount of money for one lab - $600 per PC. The others will not be as nice, probably more like $480 apiece. Parts are being ordered tomorrow, or maybe today if someone hands me a PO in time.

And honold, I'm absolutely convinced that my $600 machine will beat Dell's.

 

[honold]

for less than $480 at dell right now you can get:

p4 1.8
256mb ddr266
30gb
cdrom
xp home
wordperfect suite
ethernet
three year warranty (1 year on-site)
palm pilot, digital camera, or inkjet printer
free shipping

 

[honold]

once you build your $600 machines post the specs, and i'll see what i can do

 

[Mercutio]

So do you actually work for Dell, honold?

My $600 machine will be XP2100 + GA7VAX + 256MB Crucial RAM + 80GB Samsung disk + 48x Lite on burner + my favorite case & power supply (Compucase 6812) + 1394 card + two removable 3.5" disk bays for swapping drives around.

Total comes to something like $578, last I looked (Thursday).
Our software is already paid for, and Dell's local service for home/small business customers are contracted out of a large screwdriver shop of questionable ethics (for big companies, they have a few real techs who handle northwest Indiana and the south).

 

[Tea]

Lookz like a great combination, Mercutio, bar one thing: that XP 2100. They are a good chip, no doubt about it, but (az you know) cooling iz an issue with them and you need to take a good deal of care to get it juzt zo. I zuggezt going juzt a tiny ztep further up to the XP 2200. I am really, really imprezzed with the 2200 chipz. I don't care about the performance difference - in fact I don't think that I could pick it without rezorting to benchmarkz - but the new 0.13 micron procezz makez a much zmaller chip and they run very, very cool. From a long-term maintainability point of view, they are well worth the zmall extra cozt. And what you zpend on the chip you zave on the cooling gear, or damn cloze. If you haven't worked with one yet, buy one and zee for yourzelf. They are great.

 

[CougTek]

There is a substantial price step between the 2100+ and the 2200+. Mercutio would blew up by going for the next speed grade. The 2100+ is guaranteed to work for 3 years if he uses it with the retail heatsink fan. I don't see a problem there.

 

[Buck]

Lookz like a great combination, Mercutio, bar one thing: that XP 2100. They are a good chip, no doubt about it, but (az you know) cooling iz an issue with them and you need to take a good deal of care to get it juzt zo. I zuggezt going juzt a tiny ztep further up to the XP 2200. I am really, really imprezzed with the 2200 chipz. I don't care about the performance difference - in fact I don't think that I could pick it without rezorting to benchmarkz - but the new 0.13 micron procezz makez a much zmaller chip and they run very, very cool. From a long-term maintainability point of view, they are well worth the zmall extra cozt. And what you zpend on the chip you zave on the cooling gear, or damn cloze. If you haven't worked with one yet, buy one and zee for yourzelf. They are great.

AMD makes .13 micron CPUs starting at the 1700+ rating. Thus, Mercutio should be able to get an XP2100+ Thoroughbred core CPU and enjoy some of that .13 coolness.

 

[honold]

bah! i typed a response and apparently it didn't post

i don't work for dell, i just think the days of being able to brag about building pcs and how much more elite/better/cheaper it is than buying a dell are utterly over. i'm here to spread the news!

one has to consider their build time as a cost (unless their time is worth nothing) as well, which worsens the deal even further.

afaik it's dell's policy to have 2 contractor options for support; it's that way here, and it's that way in rhode island, but i can't speak for your neck of the woods.

the 1394 and removable bays (you're referring to swappable internal ide, right?) are more esoteric. i'm certain after looking at the compucase that dell's palo alto case drops nuclear bombs on it. screwless, side-opening, rail-based with piped cooling for the cpu.

i'll keep my eyes peeled for a deal and report back

p.s. i would second tea in saying, 'zzz zzzz zzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzz', but i find the 's' key is easier to strike

 

[Buck]

I just sold some XP2000+ .13 chips recently. Here is some information about Thoroughbred:
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1635&p=3

 

[honold]

last i heard the die decrease on the tbreds increased the heat, because they weren't using any kind of ihs. this may have changed, and the fastest athlons i own are all older 2100+s (which run approx 3678946345783624678 degrees kelvin)

 

[Tea]

We are not getting 0.13 Athlonz in anything below the 2200 grade at thiz ztage. The AMD warranty covers the CPU against self-deztruction, that iz all. It dozent cover you against zyztem inztability cauzed by overheating. Here in Auztralia with our zummerz, it iz a zignificant concern. For Athlonz in the 1700 to 2100 range, we have to go to a good deal of trouble to make zure they don't juzt work, but they keep on working. It's well worth it, az they deliver excellent performance at very low cozt, but why go to all that extra work if you don't have to? We try to avoid uzing 0.18 Athlons in the higher zpeed grades for commercial applicationz where down time iz critical, az zhort of regular attention to minor maintenence (zuch as cleaning out duzt, renewing the Arctic Zilver, and zo on) they are not as dependable az other partz.

The cozt difference between the 2100 and the 2200 is marginal over here. From memory, around $50AU - which iz to zay the price of the extra caze fan you need with the 2100 pluz a little more again, or on other wordz, not much at all. It you can get 0.13 Athlonz in lower zpeed gradez, then by all meanz do zo, of course.