headphone recommendations

[Buck]

By the way, if you know what böse means (auf Deutsche), there could not be a better name for this company. :lol:

:thumbleft:

 

[mubs]

Come on guys, quit sniggering. What does Bose mean in your lingo?

 

[Mercutio]

Unpleasant.

At least, that's what böse translates to.

Or Buy Other Stereo Equipment.

 

[Buck]

Böse

As an adjective: angry, furious, shirty, bad-tempered; evil, wicked, vicious, atrocious, bad, nefarious, mad
As an adverb: wickedly, evilly, nefariously, in a vile manner

 

[Explorer]

Come on guys, quit sniggering. What does Bose mean in your lingo?

bös = bad, böse = badly, söny = deafened by bass

And Target's webpage doesn't list it. I swear I saw a pair. They were about $70, and made by Phillips as I believe. They advertised the noise cancelling technology I've seen Bose advertise before, especially towards those on airplanes. Just thought it might be really nice for an environment in which I'm trying to work or play while she's doing her thing.

Erm... Maybe it's because you didn't spell Phi L ips correctly.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Unpleasant.

At least, that's what böse translates to.

Or Buy Other Stereo Equipment.

Are you sure it's Gates and not you on your Avatar?!

 

[Mercutio]

I cropped off the part that said "AP photo credit", but yes.

I can't help it that you're wrong so often, PW.

If you'd care to dig back in the forum archive, you can find anti-bose statements from adriel, stereodude, timwhit, Gary, mubs AND myself.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

So what?
I was alone again in that analog-digital sound thread.
But no CD can reach a good vinyl reproduction in fidelity... :wink:
But you gotta have the equipment, Merc, not entry-level stuff.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

BTW, did you read the review about the BOSE headset I mentioned above?!

 

[Pradeep]

Prof my friend. There is no doubt. Bose is shite. Witness Gary's experience with the 901. Multiple extremely cheap drivers cannot compare to a properly constructed cabinet and some quality drivers (no paper surrounds please!) They spend their money on marketing and TV/magazine ads etc. Not on their products. Try and get a store that sells Bose to let you compare directly with another non-Bose system. Bose don't publish specs because it is impossible to get a decent frequency response across the board with a single driver covering bass, mid-range, and treble. Now Kef do make a very nice driver, it has a tweeter where the bass driver's dust cover would normally be, beautiful imaging for center channel purposes. But that's not what Bose tries and fails to do.

Bose don't have a high end config. It's all turd.

As for noise cancelling headphones, I got a pair of Sony NC-11s (the in-ear versions) for flight use, they work pretty well, turn them on and the drone of the engines just melt away. Doesn't attenuate high freqs much, but you still need to take them out to hear what the flight attendant has to say. Oh and over 30 hours on a single AAA and no sign of fading! Makes things a lot less tiring.

 

[Pradeep]

Think Bose, Think PCchips at supermicro prices.

Just because you can't afford supermicro doesn't mean it sucks.

That's not what he means. Supermicro has high prices but it is a quality product. You get what you pay for. PCChips is on the other end of the spectrum, crap product at low prices. Fair enough. With Bose you pay out the arse and get crap.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Pradeep, sorry about the PCChips thing. Probably they make such crap most resellers in Europe just avoid the brand. I've never seen it in a PC shop that's why I didn't get that point.
And I think I answered why BOSE doesn't publish specs. Most probably for the gossip effect. If you go to the Lamborghini cars official site you won't find many specs either. So Lambos are crap?!

But don't you understand you're not gonna persuade me with all those subjective experiences you cite? A quick Internet search for reviews of the 901 BOSE models gives various results, and many quite different... but generally:

-It's like reading in forums about how much nVIDIA or VIA or AMD sucks, because one or more persons find them they're not as they were expecting it.
-It's like if I'm saying that Linux sucks because I weren't able to configure my Audigy for sound. (not Linux' or Creative's fault, just the card when I bought it too new!)
-It's like if I'm saying there IS GOD (without having my personal opinion) just because most people on this earth believe there is one.

True and objectivity don't lie in the accountings of personal experiences of many persons, but in the true comparative testing of the equipment by an expert (or expert group) under set and pre-defined conditions.

PS. The most stricking thing, however, was that Handruin is talking in another thread about THE SAME darn headphones from BOSE and no-one says a damn word... It's pathetic you only try to bash me...

 

[Howell]

I bout some of these some time ago so that I could mow the lawn and listen to tunes but not go deaf. The mower drowns out some of the bass but I don't have to turn it up past about 45%.

Sounds like you made a sound purchase, Andy. Pun intended.

 

[Pradeep]

Go check a top-line (and yes, expensive) sound system of a premium car (most German cars I know, for instance) and $$$-home and you'll find BOSE behind. Read a real magazine sometime.

Well now, lexus uses a Mark Levinson branded stereo from Madrigal.
Aston Martin use Linn.
And home audio, be it two or multi channel, and whether it costs not a lot, about what you’d expect, a huge amount or more than the GDP of most third world countries, does not use Bose. At least not if you want it to sound good.

I would specifically never buy a car/truck that used Bose for stereo. Having read of the horror stories of people trying to upgrade the speakers in them (all use 1 or 2 ohm I believe). So requiring adaptors, which can't be too good for sound quality.

And I have to say again, there is no high end Bose option for the home.

 

[Mercutio]

PeeWee, if you'd bother to look, you'd find that independent objective measurements of Bose equipment - any Bose equipment - shows hardware that is highly lacking in fundamental qualities of speakers, like the ability to reproduce a full range of sound.

Consumer Report magazine, here in the states, was sued after giving top of the line Bose 901 speakers a rating of 62% and using words like "mediocre" in its review. No effort was made to address or refute Consumer Report's findings.

 

[Handruin]

PS. The most stricking thing, however, was that Handruin is talking in another thread about THE SAME darn headphones from BOSE and no-one says a damn word... It's pathetic you only try to bash me...

Yes, as a matter of fact, I did mention that they are worth a listen. However, I made no claim of Bose being the greatest, or one of the leaders in audio. If you go back and reread what I wrote, my suggestion was based on nothing and I stated that.

"I don't have much experience with headphones..."
"I won't claim them to be the best sounding ever because I haven't listened too every set out there..."

Mercutio, out of curiosity, have you listen to these headphones? If so, what about them is so terrible?

The Bose headphones I listened to were the best I've heard, but that isn't saying much. Compared to any other headphone I've sampled (we're talking the $10-$30 range) they sounded fabulous. Now, if I were to compare them to the other models listed in this thread, I may have a different opinion. If those Bose were in the $60-$100 I may have considered buying them, but at a grand total of $300, I not going to consider them.

In all seriousness, read through this entire thread again and you will see how the aggression builds as the thread progresses. You do stand firm in your beliefs, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, it's best in this arena to arm yourself with too much information, rather than too little.

In comparison to my post placed many months ago, it is quite possible the Bose headphones I mentioned were not read by as many in this post. Perhaps the difference between our reactions is in our style of writing? I'll admit when I'm wrong and my hopes are that the people here will tell me so. How else am I to learn and become further educated in such a broad range of subjects? My impression was that you expected attacks in your writing. You do provide a bit of controversy and passionately defend you beliefs. Perhaps it is this stand you make that causes uproar?

Now I did read through some of the links Mercutio posted and they left me no better than my current opinion of Bose. Sound is so subjective that Bose may come off as sounding good to some people based on their design and sound coloring. To others, they sound like crap and cost too much.

I would love to spend a day with a true audiophile so that I could be taught the differences, because on my own I can't always tell the difference. I have a preference to certain speakers and musical attributes so I tend to enjoy speaker brands such as PSB and Boston Acoustics. I've read no reviews and I make no claims on either of the two manufactures, yet I like how they sound. (Depends on the speaker model of course)

Now getting back to Bose, I see they clearly have a target market. (Is it uninformed consumers? Is it brand name recognition? Is it loud noise from small box? The clear part is the unclear reason for which they exist.) They know where the money is and the other true audiophile speakers know their market. Bose doesn’t post specs most likely because the people who are likely to buy their speakers really don’t care.

My car came with Bose speakers, but I really could care less. I didn't buy my car for the Bose audio, and to tell you the true, it sounds above average, and not awesome as some may expect. My car isn't sold in a way to use Bose as a leveraging tool, so their name doesn't help sell the car. I gather that upgrading the audio system would be a nightmare, so I’ve never even ventured into that area.

My feeling is that no one will win this battle. If you are happy with Bose, buy Bose. Mercutio will continue enjoying his audio setups and reassure himself of it every time is turns on his favorite piece of music. It’s all subjective. For anyone who cares the slightest about audio quality, they can tell what sounds like crap, and the remainder of audio setups will sound good.

Not to follow the crowd, but I personally don’t like Bose home audio speakers because of their sound. I dislike how their bass sounds and their tweeters can have a brittle sound to them at times.

 

[e_dawg]

Oh dear god. I cannot believe that someone is actually defending Bose in the information age. Anybody who knew anything about audio was already bashing them in the early 90's.

I am a recovering audiophile, which means I went through the various stages of audiophilia... from ghetto blaster devotee when I was a kid to the point when I started listening to music on a stereo to when I was auditioning tube amps and blew $5,000 US on a high end (for normal people; it wouldn't be high end for an audiophile, that's for sure) system the minute I could afford it... to debating the merits of green CD markers, auditioning silver wires that cost $1,000 for a set, looking at digital signal de-jittering devices... you name it: whatever audiophiles were into, I was too. Short of converting to tube gear, I said "stop the insanity", and realized obsession over audio was unhealthy in many ways -- especially for my wallet. The point of all of this is that I have heard and bought enough speakers, e-stats, amps, CD, vinyl, and tube gear and have studied and debated enough psychoacoustic theory to be considered a certifiable audio freak.

One of my first speaker systems was the Bose Acoustimass AM-5 series II's. I thought they were great at the time. Such good sound, such small satellites, and sub that I hid under my bed. Life was good in the college dorm with a rocking system pumping out the Reservoir Dogs soundtrack on a Friday night.

But after I listened to real speakers with a real amp and CD setup, I couldn't bear to listen to my Bose setup any longer. Where was the imaging/soundstaging? Where was the clarity? Dynamics? Freedom from colouration? None of it is there because the cabinets are resonant and the drivers are shit. Remember, this is coming from a person who spent $600 US on Bose speakers. Shame on me, for every single speaker system I have ever purchased -- even my $150 US psb Alphas -- sounds better than that overpriced POS.

My uncle has the Bose 601's and Lifestyle 20 at home. He likes them because they sound good (to him) and have better aesthetics than most speakers (esp. the Lifestyle's small cube satellites). Every year I visit, I bring some new CD's over. Try as I might, I cannot find any redeeming sonic qualities.

And Prof, you don't always get what you pay for. Being a med student, I don't expect you to know that. Anybody with a strong product management / strategic marketing background/education, however would understand completely. I am finishing up my MBA this year, and have taken several courses that explicitly teach you how to market a $100 product in such a way that you can charge $800 for it.

You wouldn't believe how much research goes into consumer behaviour, social psych, etc. After extensive consumer and market research, we do discriminant analysis, factor analysis, cluster analysis, choice-based conjoint analysis, and a ton of other data modeling to determine who we can target with what type of ad, the exact content and delivery of specific messages that fit that segment's psychological and demographic profile, the choice of media/channels used to deliver these ads/messages, and the maximum price each segment would be willing to pay. There are a ton of people that don't want to waste their time obsessing over sonic details or auditioning dozens of systems at high-end audio stores. That is where the Bose name comes in. Bose still has tremendous brand equity amongst the neophytes.

If there is one thing Bose is an undisputed leader in, it's Marketing. Bose wrote the book on A/V marketing. And it's not that its engineers are bad either -- they have a mandate from management to produce products that meet their product positioning criteria at minimal cost. It's just like product engineers at hard drive companies' IDE departments. It's not that they are only capable of designing slow drives; it's their mandate to focus on acoustics, reliability, capacity, and cost -- performance is last on their list. Likewise with Bose. Sonic performance simply has to be good enough to satisfy most of the non-audiophiles out there yet be a market leader when it comes to compactness, aesthetics, and user-friendliness. Bose meets those objectives very well. Sonic bang for the buck? We're talking bottom of the barrel here.

 

[Mercutio]

Mercutio, out of curiosity, have you listen to these headphones? If so, what about them is so terrible?

Listened to a pair of these, along with a few other pairs in the ~ $200 range at a shop in Hinsdale, IL (Audio Consultants?) a couple years ago.
They reduce noise somewhat at low frequencies. Traffic noise, for instance. A little bit better than plain ol' closed headphones. They had VERY LITTLE noise reduction at anything higher than low frequencies. I could hear nearby sales chatter while listening to a quiet piano piece. They sound "OK". Not "good", just OK. By far the least impressive among the pairs I tried. Got better noise cancellation from a $125 Sony pair and generally better sound from (non-noise-cancelling) Etimotics <sp?> and Sennheiser sets.

Not a knock against Bose specifically, but in the end I decided that headphones just aren't very comfortable with the glasses I wear. The Etimotics pair was oversize earbuds. Those weren't bad, but they were also the most expensive things I looked at.

My feeling is that no one will win this battle. If you are happy with Bose, buy Bose. Mercutio will continue enjoying his audio setups and reassure himself of it every time is turns on his favorite piece of music. It’s all subjective. For anyone who cares the slightest about audio quality, they can tell what sounds like crap, and the remainder of audio setups will sound good.

Mercutio knows that his equipment could be a lot better.
Sooner or later, I'll join both my brothers (and, apparently, e_dawg) in conspicuous consumption mode and buy a stereo setup that costs more than a BMW. Until then, I AM satisified that the purchases I've made make something a damn sight better than Bose.

 

[Adcadet]

So I've been listening to my new Senn HD-280s, and realized that my music seemed to sound better than before on my Cambridge Soundworks stuff, so I did a little listening test. I played one of my favorite songs, Stevie Ray Vaughan's VooDoo Chile (MP3, 192 Kbps) on the headphones and speakers. I realize that perhaps a 192 Kbps MP3 through my old SB Live isn't top of the line, but it's what I listen to. Well, the difference was definitely noticable. Listening to my old speakers after this is like watching a DVD movie through glasses with a good milimeter of vasoline over them. I'm not about to spend a bunch more money on audio, but I'm very happy with my $100 purchase. And best of all, I can't hear much of what's going on in the outside wold (namely, the wife's TV), and she can't hear me.

 

[e_dawg]

Absolutely, Adcadet. Headphones, dollar for dollar, give you much more bang for the buck than speakers do -- many have said at least 5 times as much. I haven't heard a pair of headphones -- and numerous reviews back me up on this -- that beat my Grado SR60's in bang for the buck. Any good $100 set of cans (like your Senn's) should embarrass speakers up to the $500 mark.

 

[e_dawg]

I haven't heard a pair of headphones -- and numerous reviews back me up on this -- that beat my Grado SR60's in bang for the buck @$69 US.

I would compare them to the $500 US Paradigm Reference/20's that I enjoyed many years ago -- an excellent 2-way for that price range like the Energy C-2's, NHT 1.5i.

Merc and Pradeep properly suggest British bookshelf speakers (B&W, Mission, KEF, Wharfedale, Tannoy) -- they have always been a good bet. The same can't be said about "consumer level" American speakers. AR, BA, and NHT are some of the few good American speaker companies. Not surprising how they all prefer sealed/AS designs.

I wonder how many of you know that Canada is one of the great speaker producing nations? Maybe not in quantity, but in terms of value (esp. when you live in Canada... no import tariffs, etc.). Paradigm, psb, Camber, Energy/Mirage. They have capitalized on the extensive psychoacoustics research done at Canada's National Research Council (NRC) facilities in Ottawa to create great sounding speakers in double-blind controlled tests.

 

[Mickey]

It's rare that I meet anyone that's even heard of B&W speakers. It's the only time I've ever fallen in love with audio equipment upon first listen: a pair of B&W 601 S2 speakers, hooked up with a Marantz CD/receiver combo (I needed something compact for my bedroom).

 

[Mercutio]

That's weird. My best stuff is in my bedroom where it's quiet and the "little" stuff is out in the rest of my apartment.

 

[e_dawg]

My best stuff is in my bedroom where it's quiet...

Ah, yes, the infamous apartment which has enough deafening equipment to make an occupational health and safety inspector's eyes light up Good to know that your bedroom is actually quiet.

 

[Mickey]

You must have more space where you live. Housing costs are high around here. Living room has more room (and surprisingly good acoustics) for me.

 

[Pradeep]

I haven't heard a pair of headphones -- and numerous reviews back me up on this -- that beat my Grado SR60's in bang for the buck @$69 US.

I would compare them to the $500 US Paradigm Reference/20's that I enjoyed many years ago -- an excellent 2-way for that price range like the Energy C-2's, NHT 1.5i.

Merc and Pradeep properly suggest British bookshelf speakers (B&W, Mission, KEF, Wharfedale, Tannoy) -- they have always been a good bet. The same can't be said about "consumer level" American speakers. AR, BA, and NHT are some of the few good American speaker companies. Not surprising how they all prefer sealed/AS designs.

Actually I use a pair of TDL Studio 1m's, they have a transmission line bass setup, works well. Unfortunately they are also pretty inefficient, causing me to run out of volume when paired with the Counterpoint hybrid power amp. Perhaps some Klipsch corner horns for the next upgrade. Actually a nice SVS subwofer is probably next on the agenda.

 

[e_dawg]

Perhaps some Klipsch corner horns for the next upgrade.

Hmm.... Klipsch corner horns... I don't know about that one. I guess Klipsch are acceptable with tube gear because the tubes help mellow out the treble... but still! And besides, you have a hybrid. It's not like you need super sensitive speakers like you might with a SET amp.

Actually a nice SVS subwofer is probably next on the agenda.

TL bass not good enough for you? Actually, that would help out on the volume front esp. if you high pass the signal to your Counterpoint, leaving the SVS to handle the bass... but then why did you get a TL design in the first place if you're not going to use it?

 

[Pradeep]

Well the system is also used for home theatre, and the TDL's don't do much below 35Hz at sufficient trouser flapping volume. I have an HSU VTF-2 sub which is OK, but lacking in that final octave.

I got the TDL's and Counterpoint second hand a few years ago, didn't have a big plan back then. I actually tested the Counterpoint pre-amp alongside, but I then realised that a couch potato such as myself really must have at least remote volume selection. All manual was not good.

 

[e_dawg]

I actually tested the Counterpoint pre-amp alongside, but I then realised that a couch potato such as myself really must have at least remote volume selection. All manual was not good.

ROFL! Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. The fact that my Bryston .4B preamp does not have a remote was definitely a factor in me not using my "big rig" anymore. I do 95% of my listening on my computer with the Klipsch Promedias, Monsoon PM-14, or Grado headphones. The reduction in sound quality is offset by the 100-fold increase in convenience and ability to multitask (who has time to just sit there and listen to music exclusively on a regular basis anymore?)

 

[Mercutio]

Ah, yes, the infamous apartment which has enough deafening equipment to make an occupational health and safety inspector's eyes light up Good to know that your bedroom is actually quiet.

Well, that's 'cause there's only (very quiet) one computer in there...

My whole apartment is fairly quiet, except for the AC units. I insulated the closet where I keep the obnoxiously loud stuff with carpet scraps. Works pretty well.

Someone needs to make air conditioners that don't make noise. I have a portable that's substantially quieter than window units I have, but every time I try to run it, it seems to trip a breaker, for some reason (this is fairly curious, since I can vacuum and run a toaster oven AND the full load of my electronics collection, all without tripping a breaker).

Oh, yes, and I deeply enjoy sitting in complete darkness listening to music. It gives me something to do in that special two to three hours between when I go to bed and when I actually fall asleep.

 

[Handruin]

So what happened to Prof.Wizard? He came and argued his points and will then leave again for a few months? :eekers:

 

[e_dawg]

Perhaps he is busy listening to music on his Bose speakers, trying with infinite patience like a monk to uncover the "hidden" sonic qualities that will inevitably be revealed with enough meditation. Unlike other speakers which just reveal all the layers of the music, Bose speakers hide things from you, making it like a fun little game in which you try to guess what you're missing.

 

[Adcadet]

I have a portable that's substantially quieter than window units I have, but every time I try to run it, it seems to trip a breaker, for some reason (this is fairly curious, since I can vacuum and run a toaster oven AND the full load of my electronics collection, all without tripping a breaker).

Oh, yes, and I deeply enjoy sitting in complete darkness listening to music. It gives me something to do in that special two to three hours between when I go to bed and when I actually fall asleep.

Hmm...thinking back to my days in physics class - I'm guessing your small AC (like just about everything with a motor) creates a strong "back EMF" when the motor starts to turn that makes it draw much more current than it does when running, and probably much more than all your other electronic stuff combined. Anybody know more about "back EMF" than this? I know I had an AC once that would trip a circuit breaker every time it tried to start, yet I could load the circuit down with tons of other stuff just fine.

 

[e_dawg]

It could be... don't know much about the subject, but I do know that everything I have with an electric motor on it (A/C, pool pump, fridge, etc.) dims the lights and disturbs the power supplied to everything else much more than non-motorized equipment. I just thought that an electric motor consumes much more current on startup and that was the end of the story. Back EMF? Sounds interesting. I may have to look into that.

 

[Howell]

Compressors especially require much more current on startup that when running. That means any appliance that cools is more of a problem.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

So what happened to Prof.Wizard? He came and argued his points and will then leave again for a few months? :eekers:

Present.

Just stayed away for a while to see if Mercutio would post anymore stupidities like Bentley is crap... :mrgrn:
Merc, could you get the model number of your parents' BOSE?

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Yes, as a matter of fact, I did mention that they are worth a listen. However, I made no claim of Bose being the greatest, or one of the leaders in audio. If you go back and reread what I wrote, my suggestion was based on nothing and I stated that.

"I don't have much experience with headphones..."
"I won't claim them to be the best sounding ever because I haven't listened too every set out there..."

Mercutio, out of curiosity, have you listen to these headphones? If so, what about them is so terrible?

The Bose headphones I listened to were the best I've heard, but that isn't saying much. Compared to any other headphone I've sampled (we're talking the $10-$30 range) they sounded fabulous. Now, if I were to compare them to the other models listed in this thread, I may have a different opinion. If those Bose were in the $60-$100 I may have considered buying them, but at a grand total of $300, I not going to consider them.

It's OK. I didn't say you said they're the leader. You said they were OK and that's fine. The article in my link says they were great.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

And Prof, you don't always get what you pay for. Being a med student, I don't expect you to know that. Anybody with a strong product management / strategic marketing background/education, however would understand completely. I am finishing up my MBA this year, and have taken several courses that explicitly teach you how to market a $100 product in such a way that you can charge $800 for it.

Just because I'm a med stud doesn't mean I don't know 1+1=2, dawg. And FYI we do have a small economics course (regarding Health Management).

I'm not saying BOSE is expensive only because of quality, aesthetics, quality of materials, and marketing play a great role certainly. Same thing happens with the Mercedes brand...
But there are BOSE models which get awards or good test results. And certainly, these are not the cheapest...

 

[Mercutio]

If you'd go back and read this very thread, you'd find that Bose's highest-end speakers, the 901s, are trashed just as their low-end crap.

 

[Adcadet]

what's with the med student bashing? Can't we all just get along?

(I'm starting med school in the fall)