Help with inexpensive "Server" build

[Stereodude]

Ok, so I need to build a inexpensive but solid server. This will either replace my backup server or replace my primary server (which will then become my backup server).

Current Backup Server:
P4-3gHz w/ HT
2GB RAM
3ware PATA raid card with 2TB RAID-5 array
PATA OS HD
On-board 8MB ATI Rage graphics
Windows XP Pro
Runs ~15 minutes a day (at 2am).

Current Primary Server:
Core2Duo E5200
4GB RAM
Gigabyte mobo with 2 PCIe-x16 slots (solid caps + all that jazz)
Dell Perc 6i raid card with 9TB RAID-6 array
2x1GB RAID-1 array on Gigabyte/Jmicron SATA controller (OS + some other stuff)
PCI graphics card
Windows XP x64
Runs 24/7

The reason for this upgrade is that the 2TB RAID-5 array in the backup server is nearing full and I have no viable upgrade path for that machine. It has a 64bit PCI slots, but no PCIe slots.

My first preference is to build a totally new inexpensive machine from scratch that will get the Dell Perc 6i raid card with a 9TB RAID-6 array (8 x 1.5GB) from the primary server and the primary server will get a "new" Dell Perc 6i raid card with a 12TB RAID-6 array (8 x 2GB). This means I just need pretty much the cheapest robust mobo + CPU solution with a single PCIe x16 slot (for a Dell Perc 6i). Power consumption is not very important since the machine runs ~15 minutes a day.

I assume this is an AMD AM2/AM2+/AM3 solution with a single PCIe x16 slot, built in gigabit LAN, on-board graphics + 2GB of RAM in a case that can accommodate 10 3.5" HD's + optical drive and a power supply that's up to the task.

I haven't built an AMD solution in 4 years, so I have no idea what I should be looking at in terms of chipset or motherboard brand. I don't need much, but I want something that's robust, has on board graphics, has a single PCIe x16 slot, on board gigabit LAN, supports RAID-1 (for OS drive).

Suggestions?
Case: ?
Motherboard: ?
CPU: Cheapest dual core AM2/AM2+/AM3 CPU
Power Supply: I've had good luck with the Seasonic built Corsair units, so I'd start looking there
RAM: Cheap, but well reviewed 2x1GB DDR2 (or DDR3 if necessary)

The alternative scenario is to try to get an inexpensive Intel Core i3/i5 system with dual PCIe x16 slots (to allow for two PCIe RAID cards), built in gigabit LAN, and on-board/on-chip graphics + 4GB of RAM + case + PS to replace the current primary server trying to minimize power consumption, but I assume this is a much more expensive path to go down.

 

[Bozo]

LSI-3Ware list some PCI-X RAID controlers. Why not upgrade the RAID card and hard drives in the 'Backup Server' ??

 

[Stereodude]

Well, I suppose that's a possibility too. I already have the Dell PERC cards though and it looks like a 3ware 9550SXU-8LP is what I'd need and they're ~$275 on ebay. I think I can basically build the new machine for that price.

 

[Stereodude]

Something like this combo would let me re-use the power supply + case for less than the cost of one of those 3ware cards.

Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-MA785GM-US2H AM3/AM2+/AM2 AMD 785G HDMI Micro ATX AMD Motherboard
CPU: AMD Athlon II X2 250 Regor 3.0GHz 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM3 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor
RAM: Mushkin Enhanced Silverline 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Desktop Memory

However, I'd rather keep the current backup system running as is and pass it along to a buddy of mine and get a new case + PS.

 

[LunarMist]

Build a decent system now so that you can use it for some years like the old P4 setup. :elephant:

 

[Santilli]

Well, I suppose that's a possibility too. I already have the Dell PERC cards though and it looks like a 3ware 9550SXU-8LP is what I'd need and they're ~$275 on ebay. I think I can basically build the new machine for that price.

IIRC an 8 port LSI 9500 can be had for around 75 dollars. Each channel is around 60 MB/sec, max, but aggregate, they can turn in some impressive numbers. I might even have one, but it maybe a 4 port. Wasn't fast enough for SSD use.

http://cgi.ebay.com/3Ware-9500S-8-P..._EN_Networking_Components&hash=item5640499957

I looked, and there are a LOT of inexpensive server quality cpus. Haven't looked at motherboards, but, I always wonder about the wisdom of using a HTPC designed motherboard for a server?

What are your guidelines for the cpu? You picked a 65W cpu, so that seems to be an issue.
While faster cpus are out there, the one you picked appears to give a LOT of bang for the buck.
I also wonder if the reason the motherboard you picked is so inexpensive is it may limit throughput speeds, through cheap chips on the motherboard.

 

[Stereodude]

Here's what I'm thinking:

Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-MA785GM-US2H AM3/AM2+/AM2 AMD 785G HDMI Micro ATX AMD Motherboard
CPU: AMD Athlon II X2 250 Regor 3.0GHz 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM3 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor
RAM: Mushkin Enhanced Silverline 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Desktop Memory
PSU: CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC

There's a combo deal on the PSU + that Gigabyte mobo at Newegg, plus a 10% coupon on the PSU + a $20 rebate. So, I can get those 4 components for $232.85 with an additional $25 in rebates. I've got a brand new Enermax case (similar to this one) in the basement still new in the box to use. Add two cheap HD's for RAID-1 for the OS and I should be in business.

 

[Stereodude]

I looked, and there are a LOT of inexpensive server quality cpus. Haven't looked at motherboards, but, I always wonder about the wisdom of using a HTPC designed motherboard for a server?

Well, it's got all solid caps, and I'm not about to pay for server class components. Every server I've ever built has used consumer grade components (with the exception of the Dell PERC RAID cards) and I've never had any issues that I could track down to the non-server components (aside from the crappy 3ware RAID card).

What are your guidelines for the cpu?

Cheap and adequate. The system would just have to power up every night and copy some files from my primary server and shut down. An even cheaper single core CPU would work fine too. Heck a P3 would do the job if they had a PCIe x8 slot in them.

I also wonder if the reason the motherboard you picked is so inexpensive is it may limit throughput speeds, through cheap chips on the motherboard.

I doubt that. It's got the bandwidth to drive a high end graphics card. Replace the graphics card with a RAID card and the bandwidth still remains. Still... Throughput will ultimately be limited by the 1Gbps Ethernet connection to the primary server.

 

[Santilli]

http://cgi.ebay.com/3Ware-9500S-8-P..._EN_Networking_Components&hash=item5640499957

In that case, the 9500 seems to be the cheapest solution.

But, sounds like you have a pretty good avenue, and price already for a new box. Pretty hard to beat.

 

[Stereodude]

http://cgi.ebay.com/3Ware-9500S-8-P..._EN_Networking_Components&hash=item5640499957

In that case, the 9500 seems to be the cheapest solution.

I'm still skeptical of 3ware. The 7506-8 I bought years ago was less than impressive. I'm not sure I want to roll the dice on a legacy product trying to use it with large drives (beyond what it was ever tested with) making a giant RAID array (beyond what it was ever tested with), especially when I want to do RAID-6 which none of the PCI-X 3ware cards can do.

 

[Santilli]

9550SXU four port is what I'm currently running in my server. It's raided 3 Vertex Turbos.

Here are my results. Don't know about the Raid-6, or huge drives.

 

[sdbardwick]

I don't think that MB is all solid caps. Newegg photo shows solids on CPU VRM, but not elsewhere.

The "Ultra Durable" designation has different flavors. -USxx series often (always?) have some electrolytic caps, while -UDxx series are all solid caps.

(Just a side note, some of the lower end makers are using electrolytic caps that look like solids to the casual observer; there is subtle vent scoring on them but cans and markings look like solids at a distance.)

 

[Stereodude]

Here's what I'm thinking:

Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-MA785GM-US2H AM3/AM2+/AM2 AMD 785G HDMI Micro ATX AMD Motherboard
CPU: AMD Athlon II X2 250 Regor 3.0GHz 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM3 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor
RAM: Mushkin Enhanced Silverline 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Desktop Memory
PSU: CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC
2 OS HD's (for RAID-1): Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 ST3500418AS 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal HD

There's a combo deal on the PSU + that Gigabyte mobo at Newegg, plus a 10% coupon on the PSU + a $20 rebate. There's a $16 off promo code for the HDs. So, I can get those 6 components for $310.83 with an additional $25 in rebates. I've got a brand new Enermax case (similar to this one) in the basement still new in the box to use.

I am questioning the sanity of using Seagate HD's though. wneddnce: I'm not sure that anything else will be better at that price though. Small Samsung drives don't seem to be available and between WD, IBM, and Seagate it's six of one and half a dozen of another.

 

[Santilli]

Running Crystal Disk Mark:
SEQ 200.7 MB/S read, writes 30 MB/s
512k 195.7 25.11
4k 18.48 4.9
4kQD32 58.65 4.

 

[Stereodude]

I don't think that MB is all solid caps. Newegg photo shows solids on CPU VRM, but not elsewhere.

The "Ultra Durable" designation has different flavors. -USxx series often (always?) have some electrolytic caps, while -UDxx series are all solid caps.

Good catch... I missed that It doesn't look like there are any AM2+/AM3 motherboards that use all solid caps (at least not from Gigabyte). It looks like it's CPU VRM only.

 

[Stereodude]

9550SXU four port is what I'm currently running in my server. It's raided 3 Vertex Turbos.

Here are my results. Don't know about the Raid-6, or huge drives.

That's not real impressive for 3 SSD's.

Here's what 5 x Seagate 7200RPM drives in RAID-5 on a 3ware 7506-8 does:

You'll notice why I wasn't real impressed.

You have to edit the registry and turn off FUA in order to get decent write performance:

In contrast here's what 8 x 1.5TB Samsung 5400RPM drives in RAID-6 on a PERC 6i does:

 

[Santilli]

I agree, the speeds aren't much for a 3 Vertex Turbo Raid 0.
On the otherhand, for an inexpensive upgrade that is useable in the future, the card was not that expensive, and, the access time makes it pretty snappy for server use, and the read times are excellent for that as well.

I also wonder if you'll do anything that will make the difference between 150 MB/s and 400 MB/sec noticeable.

 

[Stereodude]

I also wonder if you'll do anything that will make the difference between 150 MB/s and 400 MB/sec noticeable.

Sure, save more than 2TB of data. oke:

 

[Stereodude]

Good catch... I missed that It doesn't look like there are any AM2+/AM3 motherboards that use all solid caps (at least not from Gigabyte). It looks like it's CPU VRM only.

It looks like MSI offers AM3 motherboards that are all solid caps, not just the CPU VRM's capacitors.

 

[Santilli]

If you'd like to try the 9500S-8, you pay the shipping and I'll send it to you. It did come up with some pretty respectable numbers in tests with large arrays.

Let me know.

 

[Stereodude]

So, should I go with this motherboard + DDR3 RAM instead of the Gigabyte + DDR2 since it's all solid caps?

MSI 880GM-E41 AM3 AMD 880G HDMI Micro ATX AMD Motherboard
Kingston 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory

I also just noticed that both mobo's only have a single PS2 port which will make them incompatible with my current KVM switch I'm using now. :frusty:

 

[Bozo]

You might want to look what OEM XS has to offer.

I picked up some NIB motherboards for $25.00 a while back.

 

[Stereodude]

You might want to look what OEM XS has to offer.

I picked up some NIB motherboards for $25.00 a while back.

Thanks for the site, but I couldn't really find the sort of system I was looking for. All the cheap motherboards were built on ancient chipsets that didn't have the features I am after.

 

[Handruin]

So, should I go with this motherboard + DDR3 RAM instead of the Gigabyte + DDR2 since it's all solid caps?

MSI 880GM-E41 AM3 AMD 880G HDMI Micro ATX AMD Motherboard
Kingston 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory

I also just noticed that both mobo's only have a single PS2 port which will make them incompatible with my current KVM switch I'm using now. :frusty:

Despite the lesser capacitors, I did like that the gigabyte board has a DVI built in, but that might not be a big deal for your needs. Going with the DDR3 and the MSI might help you in the long run if you ever decide to add more memory 3-4 years from now. It seems like older memory becomes more expensive with time.

I tried putting the same build into my cart because I like how inexpensive it was, and I don't get the same price as you even with adding in the 10% code. Seems it won't take the 10% and the $16 off for the drives at the same time, but that's easy enough to order separately. The best I can get the price down to is about $330 before rebates.

 

[Stereodude]

Despite the lesser capacitors, I did like that the gigabyte board has a DVI built in, but that might not be a big deal for your needs. Going with the DDR3 and the MSI might help you in the long run if you ever decide to add more memory 3-4 years from now. It seems like older memory becomes more expensive with time.

I tried putting the same build into my cart because I like how inexpensive it was, and I don't get the same price as you even with adding in the 10% code. Seems it won't take the 10% and the $16 off for the drives at the same time, but that's easy enough to order separately. The best I can get the price down to is about $330 before rebates.

The 10% off was for the PSU, not the HD's. I don't know anything about a 10% off code for HD's. You have to add the powersupply / mobo combo to get to that price.

I think I will go with the MSI board. It's got less features (no 1394), but that's really less to go wrong. I must have been looking at a different board yesterday because today I see that cheaper MSI has 2 PS2 ports & a COM port.

The cheaper MSI does have HDMI, which for all intents and purposes is DVI-D, so if you really wanted to drive a digital display it can do that. The more expensive MSI one has DVI + HDMI. There's also a pretty nice combo deal for it (mobo + AMD Athlon II X4 640 Propus 3.0GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache Socket AM3 95W CPU for $140.

 

[Stereodude]

This is a really cheap combo for a low end server (MSI 880GM-E41 AM3 AMD 880G HDMI Micro ATX Mobo + Sempron 145 Sargas 2.8GHz Socket AM3 45W Single-Core CPU - $93).

I'm leaning toward this combo though ( MSI 880GM-E41 AM3 AMD 880G HDMI Micro ATX Mobo + Athlon II X2 260 Regor 3.2GHz Socket AM3 65W CPU - $123). It's cheaper than buying a lower end dual core + the mobo separately.

 

[Mercutio]

My file servers are ancient C2D E6300s on solid-cap Gigabyte boards, though I don't remember specifically which model (IIRC, they have 12 onboard SATA ports and DDR2 and DDR3 DIMM slots, so whichever one that was). They each have 700W Seasonic PSUs, 2GB DDR2 and use a pair of 250GB drives in RAID1 for OS stuff along with one or two Perc5s each for lots of SATA love. I have Norco 24-bay rackmount chassis for them (I replaced their cheapass fans) and they sit in APC Netshelter 13U enclosures.

I don't think there's a circumstance where I'd trust an MSI board over a Gigabyte one, SD. Really, since there's an expectation of extremely high reliability and there are no particular processing requirements, I think you're barking up the wrong tree by looking at AMD at all. I think I'd look at a modest Intel-based motherboard of some sort and combine it with a dual core Celeron or something.

 

[Stereodude]

I think I'd look at a modest Intel-based motherboard of some sort and combine it with a dual core Celeron or something.

So, you're talking about a LGA 775 based system?

 

[Mercutio]

So, you're talking about a LGA 775 based system?

Absolutely. You'll find your solid caps that way for sure.

 

[Stereodude]

Absolutely. You'll find your solid caps that way for sure.

Well, a quick search of the egg didn't turn up much. LGA 775 + onboard graphics + on board RAID-1 + gigbit LAN gave me these 7 results. None give me a warm and fuzzy. The ASUS P5N7A-VM Micro ATX Mobo seems to be the best of them, but I'm not a big ASUS fan though it does have all solid caps. I'm also not thrilled with the idea of using an nVidia chipset in a server. However, after rebates the Asus P5N7A + E3300 + 2 x 1GB DDR2-800 + Corsair 650TX + 2 x 7200.12 500GB HD build is about the same price as the AMD build I'm considering.

Ultimately, I'm not sure that Intel + nVidia is any better than AMD + AMD.

 

[Mercutio]

Onboard RAID1 should be possible with anything that supports a modern (ICH7 or newer) Intel southbridge.

 

[Stereodude]

Onboard RAID1 should be possible with anything that supports a modern (ICH7 or newer) Intel southbridge.

I don't think so. The standard ICH 7, ICH 8, or ICH9, etc do not support RAID. You need the ICH xR or xDO variants to support RAID.

 

[Bozo]

Looks like this has everything you are looking for. $15.00, NIB

 

[Bozo]

Add this Pentium dual core $65.00. Or a Celeron starting at $35.00. All NIB

 

[Stereodude]

Looks like this has everything you are looking for. $15.00, NIB

I appreciate you doing the digging, but it's missing gigabit LAN, missing on board video, solid caps is unclear, only SATA-I (though it has RAID-1), and only supports power hungry Pentium D processors (no Core 2 Duo). The lack of gigabit LAN and on board video are basically show stoppers. I tried to check through the other boards they have that are similarly priced, but couldn't find one that had the combo of RAID-1 capability, on board graphics, and gigbit LAN.

 

[Adcadet]

I appreciate you doing the digging, but it's missing gigabit LAN, missing on board video, solid caps is unclear, only SATA-I (though it has RAID-1), and only supports power hungry Pentium D processors (no Core 2 Duo). The lack of gigabit LAN and on board video are basically show stoppers. I tried to check through the other boards they have that are similarly priced, but couldn't find one that had the combo of RAID-1 capability, on board graphics, and gigbit LAN.

What about this: http://oemxs.us/shopping/index.php?target=products&product_id=40158
You'd have to find some other way of doing RAID I imagine. But it's got gigabit LAN, onboard video, and SATA 3.0 Gb/s.

 

[Stereodude]

What about this: http://oemxs.us/shopping/index.php?target=products&product_id=40158
You'd have to find some other way of doing RAID I imagine. But it's got gigabit LAN, onboard video, and SATA 3.0 Gb/s.

Well, it's about 2x the cost of what I'm looking at with no advantage for my application other than being Intel (and still lacking solid caps). It does have RAID though according to the Newegg listing for the motherboard.

 

[Stereodude]

So, I got my parts yesterday, well most of them. I was a little surprised to find my box from Newegg had no packing material in it and the DDR3 RAM was missing. :cursin:

So, I either stop by Microcenter on the way home and hope they have some DDR3 at a reasonable price (may be possible) or order more from the egg and postpone my build until next week. :sad:

 

[Stereodude]

Well, it's alive.

I grabbed this DDR2 kit from Microcenter on the way home from work yesterday for $79.99. Newegg is refunding my money for the 2GB kit I ordered from them since UPS apparently lost it. Now I just need to figure out why they're refunding me less than the price I paid for it. They're refunding me $32.62 when I paid $37.99.

 

[Stereodude]

So the system seems to draw ~130W at idle with 10HDs spinning (8 x 5400RPM / 2 x 7200RPM). I guess that's not too bad.

I also got Newegg to refund me the the missing $5.37 too. So far I'm pretty happy with the system.