HTPC build

[Adcadet]

Do you think the low-end Sandy Bridge will be that much better for a HTPC? I suppose the lower thermal power on the Sandy bridge i3's compared to the current ones will be a nice feature (65 vs 73 W).

Any idea if the onboard graphics will be enough for a HTPC and light gaming machine to forego a dedicated graphics card?

 

[time]

Keep in mind the integrated Intel solution doesn't do 1080p24 correctly.

You've probably already done this, but I can't find anything on the Net or AvsForums in particular. I suspect the info is out of date. Looks like either AMD or Intel IGP solutions can handle it just fine these days.

My biggest question is whether the integrated graphics on a Clarksdale i3, together with a TV tuner card, would give me everything I need.

Based on advice on AvsForums, yes.

Should I insist on getting a Display Port?

Display Port is way more future-proof than HDMI, which is already at its resolution limit. But more resolution will likely require a more powerful GPU anyway.

Is the onboard graphics on the i3s really good enough for light gaming now, and for a few years to come?

Gaming's a big call; if you're thinking of playing some kind of FPS a $100 standalone card is in a totally different league. But you won't need one right now, so just make sure you have a slot free.

On option is a mini-ITX case and motherboard (for an example, see http://techreport.com/articles.x/19641/1). This would only give me a single PCI expansion slot, which would likely be used by a TV tuner card, and I'd be stuck with the onboard graphics of a Clarksdale i3. I suppose I could get an external TV tuner device, but that would seem less cool.

I'm one of many coveting that ITX board (because of the cases it supports), but it's probably just a bad idea. You could end up needing slots for graphics, tuner and WiFi.

A slightly bigger option is a micro-ATX build with a discrete graphics card (such as http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102902). This would give me a Display Port, DX11 support, and better graphics performance (I presume).

AFAIK, graphics performance is much the same. Bear in mind that an i3 still lags the AMD HD4200 IGP solution, sometimes by a considerable margin. If you want to do a lot of video encoding, the AMD X640 CPU will wipe the floor with the i3.

But personally, that wouldn't influence me too much. As I said, if you want real 3D grunt, there's no substitute for standalone graphics, the pick of which is easily a 5770, although the passively cooled 5670 solutions are also worth a look or three for an HTPC. A bit of care should insure you end up with a Display Port model.

 

[time]

I was referring to HDMI Type A, BTW. That's the connector that's currently available.

 

[Stereodude]

You've probably already done this, but I can't find anything on the Net or AvsForums in particular. I suspect the info is out of date. Looks like either AMD or Intel IGP solutions can handle it just fine these days.

I guess you didn't look very hard. link

As I said it doesn't output 1080p23.976 (like it should when you set it to 1080p24) and as a result it has a stutter problem. However, if you're not after proper 1080p24 and don't plan to use anything other than 1080p60 / 1080i60 / 720p60 it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Adcadet]

Does anybody see anything wrong with this type of set up:

Gigabyte GA-880 GMA (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128445), Athlon II X4 640, either 2 or 4 GB or RAM, an LG blue ray burner (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136181), a 2 TB hard drive, perhaps a cheap SSD (Intel X25-V), and WinXP pro (to get a remote desktop server). For an enclosure I'm thinking about this small Antec case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129046)

Any reason the 2 TB hard drive should be a low power version (WD green, Seagate Barracuda LP, Samsung F4? Looks like I could get another Hitachi 2 TB 7200 RPM drive for only $110 right now.

Any noticeable difference in HTPCs with 2 vs 4 GB or RAM?

 

[Stereodude]

With WinXP Pro you could get by with 1GB of RAM.

BTW, there's a hack to enable remote desktop server support on Win 7 Home Premium.

I don't think that HTPC build supports passing the advanced audio codecs on Blu-Ray discs via HDMI though.

 

[CougTek]

Any noticeable difference in HTPCs with 2 vs 4 GB or RAM?

If you use XP Pro, you won't be able to use all your 4GB memory. Only about 3.25GB because of adressing limit by the operating system.

And the Antec Micro Fusion's remote sucks BTW. Save on something else and buy a Logitech Harmony One if you really want a remote control. An Adesso wireless keyboard could be useful too.

 

[LunarMist]

Any reason the 2 TB hard drive should be a low power version (WD green, Seagate Barracuda LP, Samsung F4? Looks like I could get another Hitachi 2 TB 7200 RPM drive for only $110 right now.

I never found the 7K2000 to be a good performer and it is rather noisy and warm. Have they updated it to fewer than 5 platters?

 

[Adcadet]

I don't think that HTPC build supports passing the advanced audio codecs on Blu-Ray discs via HDMI though.

How big of an issue is this? Is there some sort of workaround?

 

[time]

I guess you didn't look very hard. link

Obviously, I don't understand something here. The Intel technical response seemed spot on to me. Panel refresh rate has nothing to do with progressive scan frame rate. Most TVs are now at least 120Hz (or 100 in PAL countries). That's 5 refreshes for every video frame. It wouldn't matter if the fps was 20, 24, or 30.

Obsession with interlaced frame rates made sense before the advent of HDTV sets. What possible relevance does it have now?

 

[Adcadet]

Does the Gigabyte GA-H55M-USB3 / Intel Core i3 have the same advanced audio codec problem as the ? Would this be a significant reason to go with the Intel i3/H55 route over the AMD version?

 

[Stereodude]

Obviously, I don't understand something here. The Intel technical response seemed spot on to me. Panel refresh rate has nothing to do with progressive scan frame rate. Most TVs are now at least 120Hz (or 100 in PAL countries). That's 5 refreshes for every video frame. It wouldn't matter if the fps was 20, 24, or 30.

Obsession with interlaced frame rates made sense before the advent of HDTV sets. What possible relevance does it have now?

If the content on the disc is encoded at 23.976FPS and you're outputting it at 24FPS, where does the extra .024 FPS come from? It comes from a duplicated frame every so many seconds, which gives you a stutter.

Intel's answer is full of crap since stand alone blu-ray players don't have the same problem. They actually output 23.976FPS and have no stutter.

 

[Stereodude]

Does the Gigabyte GA-H55M-USB3 / Intel Core i3 have the same advanced audio codec problem as the ? Would this be a significant reason to go with the Intel i3/H55 route over the AMD version?

The integrated graphics in the Clarkdale based processors support HDMI 1.3 and bitstreaming of the advanced audio codecs. (as do Fermi based nVidia cards and 5xxx Radeon cards)

 

[Stereodude]

How big of an issue is this? Is there some sort of workaround?

If you're looking for proper blu-ray playback equivalent to a standalone player it's a pretty big deal if you're looking to take advantage of the high quality audio found on the discs. Without it, you're limited to analog outputs, encoding it to DTS or DD and passing it over TOSlink or co-ax, or perhaps decoding it to LPCM (depending on the capabilities of the chipset). Decoding to 7.1 LPCM via HDMI isn't an issue if you have a Protected Audio Path (because you get the equivalent audio just uncompressed). Without PAP it will automatically limit you to 16bit/48kHz instead of passing 24bit audio at a high sampling rate (if the content has a higher sampling rate).

 

[Stinker]

Why would you waste the time and effort involved with building an HTPC unless you already have a huge library of your own content that you like to watch over and over again? You won't be able to record much...

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3570

 

[Adcadet]

So has antything happened since that article appeared on 8/27/2009?

 

[Mercutio]

Why would you waste the time and effort involved with building an HTPC unless you already have a huge library of your own content that you like to watch over and over again?

I can think of a few reasons, starting with flexibility to easily adopt new technologies instead of waiting for consumer electronics to catch on to something, ease of control from doing everything with a single device (my mom can't work a satellite TV box + Tivo but she does OK with just an HTPC 'cause it's a PC and she understands those, kinda), and not being trapped in the DRM/format-lock hell of consumer devices.

A PS3 is a noisy device that can play BDs and Netflix, but it has limited ability to deal with data files or other web sites that offer streaming and has a rather pathetic local storage capacity. And that's the best second option.

 

[Adcadet]

Are you guys familiar with Roku? My family does a lot of Netflix, which would be nice. Listening to Pandora and radio stations would be a nice bonus as well.

http://www.roku.com

 

[time]

If the content on the disc is encoded at 23.976FPS and you're outputting it at 24FPS, where does the extra .024 FPS come from? It comes from a duplicated frame every so many seconds, which gives you a stutter.

Every 42 seconds in fact, a frame would have to be shown for 2/24 of a second instead of 1/24. If the TV refresh was synced, which it isn't. I can tell it isn't because PAL sets use 50, 100 or 200Hz, none of which are exact multiples of 24Hz (or 23.976). Bear in mind that a popular film to PAL conversion technique is simply to speed it up from 24 to 25fps.

I still can't find anything to support your assertion. Do you have anything other than people repeating what they've heard? I am genuinely interested.

 

[Mercutio]

Are you guys familiar with Roku? My family does a lot of Netflix, which would be nice. Listening to Pandora and radio stations would be a nice bonus as well.

Yes. These days Netflix streaming is built in to a lot of BD players and all the game consoles, so that's not a particularly interesting trick any more. I think my TV will stream Pandora if you give it an internet connection, too.

 

[MaxBurn]

To convert framerates does it do something similar to 3-2 pulldown?

 

[Stinker]

I can think of a few reasons, starting with flexibility to easily adopt new technologies instead of waiting for consumer electronics to catch on to something, ease of control from doing everything with a single device (my mom can't work a satellite TV box + Tivo but she does OK with just an HTPC 'cause it's a PC and she understands those, kinda), and not being trapped in the DRM/format-lock hell of consumer devices.

A PS3 is a noisy device that can play BDs and Netflix, but it has limited ability to deal with data files or other web sites that offer streaming and has a rather pathetic local storage capacity. And that's the best second option.

All sounds like good stuff. I must admit I don't really understand how it works but it seems like it would be a lot of work as well as time consuming to try to find/download the stuff you want to watch (let alone get it in HD). Am I wrong? Are there any good guides online I could learn from?

Also, what if you're primarily interested in a DVR-like functionality (i.e. recording current TV series or movies and then watching them at your leisure). Do you need to subscribe to cable TV to be able to do that, or, can you get all that in an automated fashion for free via downloads with a HTPC?

Appreciate any help in getting me/us educated.

 

[Stereodude]

I still can't find anything to support your assertion. Do you have anything other than people repeating what they've heard? I am genuinely interested.

There are people on AVSforum who claim to see the stutter from the repeated frame every ~40 seconds. I also have a few friend IRL who are in HTPC's who complain about stutter on Intel solutions, but have no issues with the ATI cards.

Personally, I haven't tried an Intel Clarkdale solution, and don't have my HTPC connected to a TV that accepts 1080p24.

I saw something similar on my GF9300 IGP (under XP) that I don't see with my ATI 5570 (under Windows 7). It's on a TV that supports 1080i60. My guess is that the GF9300 wasn't really outputting 59.94FPS when set to 1080i60.

 

[Stereodude]

To convert framerates does it do something similar to 3-2 pulldown?

Which? There's a big push for TV / Projectors among videophiles that display video in an even multiple of the format's frame rate. This is one of the reasons why 120Hz and 240Hz TV's & Projectors are good. They can display ____p60 or ____p24 content without judder. A 60Hz TV or projector can not do that and has 3-2 cadence caused judder.

 

[Adcadet]

"ATI and Intel support HD video playback and HD audio bitstreaming. Clarkdale lacks proper 23.576Hz playback, however. NVIDIA's solution is a bit behind AMD and Intel in that it lacks HD audio bitstreaming."
From: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18816470#post18816470

 

[Stereodude]

"ATI and Intel support HD video playback and HD audio bitstreaming. Clarkdale lacks proper 23.576Hz playback, however. NVIDIA's solution is a bit behind AMD and Intel in that it lacks HD audio bitstreaming."
From: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18816470#post18816470

That's not correct. The Fermi based nVidia cards support HD audio bitstreaming.

Right below it in the same post:

• Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio/Master Audio bitstreams
  • Every Radeon HD 5xxx graphics card
  • GeForce GTX 460/GTS 450/GT 440/GT 430 graphics card (with ffdshow Audio Decoder and WinDVD Pro 2010; PowerDVD and TotalMedia Theatre do not support it yet)
  • Every Intel Core i5/i3 (Clarkdale) processor (via an H55/H57 chipset motherboard with onboard HDMI)

 

[Adcadet]

So much mis-information... If I believe the guide on AVS forums, then i3 does not do proper video, and a 785G chipset does not do all of the audio formats.

All I want is a simple, reliable HTPC. Do I really need to get a new Tivo? I'd love to have the flexibility that a PC in the family room would give, but I don't want something that will give me headaches once built? Am I really asking too much?

 

[Stereodude]

So much mis-information... If I believe the guide on AVS forums, then i3 does not do proper video, and a 785G chipset does not do all of the audio formats.

I'm not sure I'd call it misinformation. Some of it is dated. Prior to the Fermi cards nVidia didn't have a bitstreaming solution. So, someone missed that line when editing the post to update it. As far as I know the information about the i3/i5 is correct with regards to 23.976Hz video and the 785G chipset information is correct as well with regard supported audio format.

All I want is a simple, reliable HTPC. Do I really need to get a new Tivo? I'd love to have the flexibility that a PC in the family room would give, but I don't want something that will give me headaches once built? Am I really asking too much?

There's lot of choices. You just have to build the system that has the compromise you can live with. For example, if your TV can't accept or you have no intention of using 1080p24 then the Intel Clarksdale is hard to beat. If you don't care about bitstreaming the advanced audio codecs you've got a lot more options. If you want to do it all you'll need a discrete graphics card and Windows 7.

 

[Adcadet]

Hey Guys,

So, I finally built the HTPC. Now that the build is done and I have a little time, I'll share with you my experience.

First, here is a description of the parts and some basic rationale.

This was to be my first HTPC build, designed largely to replace a 7-year old Tivo. We wanted a new LCD TV to fit into our current entertainment center, and we had room to put a 15" deep PC below it. Neither my wife nor I are too picky about sound quality, visual quality, nor aesthetics. We also wanted to minimize our cost, but at the same time, I don't have a ton of time to monkey around with things and we have a low tolerance for failure, but I really wanted something with more flexibility and capability than a stand-alone system (like Tivo). The HTPC was to go in our main level, and our computers and network are located on the lower level. More on the networking issues later.

I purchased most of the parts from Newegg. I took about a month to purchase them, during which time I would opportunistically buy when the price seemed relatively low. I also used combo deals when it saved me money. Prices listed below reflex the discounts, and shipping was almost always free.

Parts:
Chip: Athlon II X4 640 (4 cores, 3 GHz, 95W) – I wanted 4 cores for the times when I would want to transcode video. I was hoping that the 95W TDP would be acceptable in my build. $99.

RAM: 4 GB from Kingston, using a set that both MSI and Kingston said would work with the motherboard (I've learned to be picky about memory). $57

Motherboard: MSI 890GXM-G65 – I wanted a micro ATX board that had USB 3 and SATA 6. I was torn between an 880 board with the ATI 4250 integrated card (exemplified by this Gigabyte board http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128445) or the more powerful 890 board with the ATI 4290 integrated card. When this MSI board (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E1681313026) went on sale for the same price as the lowest price I had seen for the Gigabyte board ($99), I decided to go for it. Will I ever see the benefit of the slightly more powerful 4290? Only time (the 4th dimension, not our esteemed member) will tell. $99.

TV Tuner - Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 - dual tuners that support both digital and analog signals, came with remote. I also wanted to steer clear of the less-known boards, and this one seemed to have pretty good reviews at Newegg and some phone support if needed (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815116036). $125.

Case - HEC micro ATX case with 300W power supply. I needed a case <=15" deep to fit within my TV stand, and I wanted to spend as little as possible on the case thinking that it would usually not be noticed. More on that later ... (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811121100). $50.

Hard Drive - 2 TB WD Caviar Green (20EARS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136514). $80.

Optical - LITE-ON iHOS104-06 Blu ray/DVD reader. If I do any burning, it would likely be from my desktop PC. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106325). $36.

OS - Windows 7 Professional (wanted to run Remote Desktop so I could access the HTPC from my desktop computer without having to resort to hacking my registry) $119.

HDMI cable - I decided that this was a good deal at only $10,000 new (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ils?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1291080509&sr=1-1&seller=). Just kidding, $4 at Newegg.

Wireless keyboard/mouse - mostly going for cheat as I didn't expect to use the keyboard all that much. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H0BOBA/ref=oss_product). $40

TV - Samsung 46" LN46C630 (http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-...2_7-33985355.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody). Primary atributes of interest were size (we wanted it to fit into our current TV stand, and by our calculations, 46" was the sweet spot for our room), and price. We found this on sale and were able to purchase it with the help of a discount. $800.

Total cost of the HTPC - $709, plus $800 for the TV.

 

[Mercutio]

That's a very good build, actually. I think MSI motherboards are a touch sketchy and of course there's some unfortunateness with your hard drive selection, but I think your hardware spec is very reasonable for the machine's functions.

There are Windows media remotes and very good wireless keyboard solutions, but I mostly find myself using VNC from a laptop to manage my HTPC. Some day I'll have some kind of tablet-like system for it but that's by far the easiest thing for me by myself.

 

[Adcadet]

The Build and noise control

The build went rather smoothly. I set aside a few hours, thinking that the small size might make the assembly very difficult. I certainly had to go back a few steps a few times to make cables reach and to get to certain areas of the motherboard (for example, the optical drive covers up the motherboard headers). The case was so-so to work with, but felt sturdy. There is a bar that runs down the center of the case on top which seems like it's just for extra support that you have to take off to assemble the PC, and it felt sturdy enough without it that I just left it off. Cable management is difficult, and despite my best efforts, I was still left with extra power and SATA cables coiled in front of the 80mm front intake fan. I suppose I could get shorter SATA cables to minimize this.

After the build, I installed Windows 7 and basic software (thank God for Ninite, http://ninite.com/). This took a while, presumably because of the relatively slow hard drive. After installation, I then loaded up Speedfan for monitoring and began testing with Prime 95 and Intel's burn test (http://downloads.guru3d.com/IntelBurnTest-v2.3-download-2047.html). Burn Test got the temps much higher much quiker, and the CPU would run right between 59 and 60 C under full load after prolonged testing; as this is the maximum temp per AMD, and only happened when I was torturing the machine, I thought this was acceptable.

After moving the PC upstairs, a major problem became apparent: noise. The 80mm intake fan in the front seemed quiet enough (it seems like a low RPM fan), but the stock fan on the heatsink is horribly noisy with an annoying high pitched whine. The case has ventilation holes on two sides around the CPU, which may help with temperature but provides no noise dampening. And my TV stand doesn't have doors either. It was bad enough that my wife finally said something to me, and she's tolerated sitting in the same room as many loud 60, 80, and 120 mm fans. In the motherboard BIOS I found a rudimentary way to control the CPU fan speed. Unfortunately, it looks like there is only one setting, a high and low speed (expressed as percent voltage) with a CPU temp determining fan speed. This has so far worked surprisingly well; under normal circumstances the fan spins at 50% and when the CPU temp gets >50 C it spins at 100%. I was doing some basic video editing the other day, and despite taxing the CPUs for >5 minutes (Windows task manger showed that each CPU was running at ~75% during most of this time) the fan never went to 100%. During typical use (video playback from the hard drive or playing a DVD) the CPU temperature sits around 30 C, and two other temps that Speedfan picks up (hard drive? another monitor on the motherboard?) sit around 30 C. The fan is still a little louder than I'd like, but I haven't had the time to see about tweaking it further. I'd like to know what the minimum voltage is to make it spin, as I would be afraid of setting it so low that the fan doesn't spin at all.

 

[Adcadet]

Networking

The next major step in setting up the HTPC was setting up the networking. As I've mentioned before, my cable internet comes into our lower level, where my wife and I have our PCs. The HTPC and TV are upstairs. While certainly within wireless range, I wanted to avoid relying on Wifi for two reasons: speed (I anticipate transferring home videos between my computer and the HTPC on a regular basis) and security.

Unfortunately, my house was never wired for Ethernet and the prior owners resorted to drilling holes through the house and running coaxial cable around the outside of the house to get cable TV where they wanted it. While I wasn't opposed to working within walls, getting cable down one level and across a room would have posed a significant challenge; meanwhile, there were holes already drilled to let me run the cable outside (would take ~60 feet of cable). So at first I used some cat5e that I had, cut the RJ45 connectors off so the cable would fit, ran the cable, then put new RJ45 connectors back on. Unfortunately, this only would then support 100BT speeds. This thread (http://www.storageforum.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8459) documented some of my difficulties and illustrates how much I needed to learn when this started. I later found out that the cat5e cable did have some serious kinks in it in a number of places.

My next step was to buy cat 6 cable and put on keystones. Unfortunately, I thought I could use a toolless keystone (http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10513&cs_id=1051303&p_id=1039&seq=1&format=2) with my twisted cat6. I now see that there is a big red warning on the toolless keystone I used - either this wasn't there, or I missed it before. Using the toolless keystone with my twisted cat6 was a challenge, and at first I could only get it to connect at 10BT. After re-doing the keystone and being more meticulous, I was able to get it to connect at 100BT. I finally resorted to talking to the tech support people at Monoprice. This was actually the best part of the whole HTPC experience. I used the online chat, and they were able to quickly point me towards the correct keystone (http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10513&cs_id=1051309&p_id=5384&seq=1&format=2) and tool that I needed (http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10509&cs_id=1050903&p_id=1391&seq=1&format=2). $17 and 5 days later I was finally able to connect the HTPC at gigabit speeds (to my DIR-655 that has gotten so much attention, as it turns out - http://www.storageforum.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8463). Using the keystone jack and punch down tool was actually really easy - much easier than the toolless keystone! I have keystones in the walls and then I use a short patch cable from the wall to the HTPC upstairs and from the wall to the router downstairs. I can now transfer files between HTPC and desktop PC at ~100 MB/s.

Moral of the story - if you're doing some networking work, just ask the Monoprice people to point you in the right direction.

 

[Santilli]

HMMM.
I recently replaced my Linksys switch with a gigabyte, home switch, made by TP Link.
I did not replace the Cat 5 cables, and, plugged server and Beast into the new switch, along with printer, and internet connection. SOMETIMES, I get VERY fast transfer rates, like 100MB/sec, or over. Other times, 10 MB/sec to maybe 15. Seems like it is really weird, but, at least now I get more, higher transfer rates then before.

This is using a network folder from the Beast on the desktop of the server, and, moving the folder from a SATA drive on the server to the Beasts' dual X-25's, in Raid 0.

Weird stuff, networking with 7.

 

[Stereodude]

Sounds like you're not consistently getting gigabit speeds, but are sometimes only connected at 100Mbit at one or both ends.

 

[CougTek]

Not all CAT5 cables are able to achieve gigabit speed. The cheaper ones or those with poorly made connectors will let too much noise interfere and the network will drop down to 100Mbit. If you want to be sure, replace your cables with CAT6.

 

[Stereodude]

I'd guess the cheapo TP Link switch is just as likely to be the problem as the cables. However, new cables are probably less expensive than a decent switch. I'd examine the cables and replace any that are damaged or not CAT5e rated.

 

[time]

I'd guess the cheapo TP Link switch is just as likely to be the problem as the cables.

I doubt that, by all accounts (including Tannin's) the TP Link stuff is pretty good, certainly more reliable than Netgear.