I need a drink

[Mercutio]

Fiercely.

 

[CougTek]

What happened to you again? You lost your job? Your car was stolen? You saw a terrible crime in your neighborhood when taking a walk? What?

 

[Bartender]

What would you like sir (and thanks for asking instead of just taking )?

 

[Mercutio]

Some days are just harder than others.

Mixed signals suck.

 

[Mercutio]

Two fingers from the river Lethe, good barkeep.

 

[Bartender]

I'll try my best, but she won't be easy to forget.

 

[flagreen]

Some days are just harder than others.

Mixed signals suck.

Yes they do. If it is meant to be, so it will be. If it is not meant to be than there is nothing you can do about it. I have been through my fair share of these things. No matter how difficult or painful they may have been, I always came out a better person for them.

 

[Mercutio]

Bill, are you still friends with any of your "ex"-es?

 

[timwhit]

I didn't think you drank Merc? Well, nows as good of time as any to start... It will make all your problems go away...at least until the next morning.

 

[flagreen]

Bill, are you still friends with any of your "ex"-es?

No not really. It only causes problems. The first Ex I would not want to be friends with. Once the trust was broken with her we never got along.

The second is a wonderful person but she did not think it a good idea to remain friends. After 10 years I still miss her and love her though I no longer hurt over the divorce or pine away over her. I wanted to remain friends but in hind sight, she was right. In truth what I really wanted was a way to hang on to her because I still loved her. But it would have only led to emotional confusion and more hurt for each of us had we stayed friends. I think in order for a couple to remain friends after a break up, neither must be in love with the other. Otherwise it's only asking for a prolongation of the agony.

 

[Bartender]

Tim, Merc's expression to drink from the river Lethe is Greek Mythology. He would prefer a lethal dose so that his memories and the pain of his ex would be gone for good. Living can be painful, but it can also reward one with great joy.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Psychology says that those with really strong memories are not so lucky as many of you think...
Yes, they may achieve higher scores in some tests, exams, etc. but if they are hit by a strong sentimental crisis (ie. a break-up) they have a hard time to forget and go on. This provokes in some cases unsurmountable emotional instabilities and(in most of cases)... bad mood for a loooooooooooooong amount of time.

I wish there was this river Lethe somewhere near you Merc. But ancient Greeks were good in myths... and myths are only fictious unfortunately...

Don't worry. Do you want me to tell you something to make yourself forget? Do you want to discuss something else? Anything...
Let me throw a topic: let's talk about Windows, shall we?!

 

[Mercutio]

I don't drink but right now I think I could be tempted.

The thing is... in order for me to get through the day I have to basically wrap my mind around the finality of what's happened. I'm trying very hard to be friends (I try to look and see a sister) and be supporting of my ex but for her, nothing changed - even about her feelings for me - except the sort of, um, intimacy she's looking for.
So she still treats me on her better days much the same way as before and it's very tough to handle.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Sam,

have you considered breaking off completely?
(no calls, no visits, no sights...)

Man I know it's a decision not to be taken with a "light" heart, but this situation is only harming you more IMHO.

Unfortunately, there are NO median solution if one of the two sides is still in love. Or you're couple or you seperate for a couple of months, till you win back your personal autonomy.

Hey, I'm not suggesting here to forget her... just to give time to YOURSELF.

 

[Mercutio]

I really can't do that, PW.

When all is said and done for me, I'm the one with an income and a (mostly) low-stress life, not to mention a whole bunch of people who'll say "poor bastard, no wonder he never leaves his apartment".
Amy gets a choice (sort of) in pursuing her path, but no input in how the other people in her life choose to deal with her choice (this is Indiana. It won't go well). She needs support. When she doesn't get it she dwindles into herself and into depression/inaction, which is a really scary thing.

 

[Cliptin]

have you considered breaking off completely?
(no calls, no visits, no sights...)

I think this is the best way. It can take awhile to heal and begin to trust again (10 years for me) but things would certainly have been more prolonged, bitter and generally more unpleasant had I not made a clean break.

 

[James]

have you considered breaking off completely?
(no calls, no visits, no sights...)

Ditto.

I've gone through one major episode a bit like yours Merc; in the end it got so messy she was threatening suicide (and then saying she was pregnant), and I got excused from my results for one year of university on psychological grounds. In hindsight I realise the clean break would have been better for all concerned, however unimaginable it seemed at the time. I cannot begin to express what a nightmare it all was, but trust me I wouldn't want my greatest enemy to go through it.

It is Amy's choice to do what she is doing. If she is doing that based on the knowledge that you'll continue to support her financially and be there for her to come back to if she needs to, it's not a real choice, it's exploiting you. If she's exploiting you, what does that show you her opinion of you is?

 

[Cliptin]

I finally had to decide to let other people make decisions for me. Where to live.. stuff like that. Although I had made the decision to call it quits, I was not emotionally strong enough to enforce the decision on myself.

I agree with on his last paragraph. You are no ones fall back plan.

 

[Mercutio]

Well, Amy couldn't be pregnant (yes, I'm sure). Suicidal? Not that either.
She's actually getting better a lot faster than I am (got some response from online personals I encouraged her to do) Me as a "fall back plan"... er, not really.
Maybe a little. But more as a shoulder to cry on and a place to sleep - things one does for a friend.

After hearing her talk about it I don't think she has a "choice" at all, except the degree to which she chooses to be open about her life.

I guess I'm just trying to do the *right* thing. Sometimes I wonder if I'm the coward for not being able to make a clean break or the coward for not wanting to stand by her as she finds a the good and bad parts of her new self. I really can't do both. I feel like walking away now would be turning my back on a friend in need.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

But more as a shoulder to cry on and a place to sleep - things one does for a friend.

But what friend Mercutio? WHAT FRIEND?! :x
(these things infuriate me...)

You CAN'T be friends for the time being. It's too early for that part. You were lovers less than a month ago. I'm not advocating that ex's can't make very good friendships, but let the time pass first. Let the wounds heal. And let yourself find another girlfriend.

There is an aphorism regarding love relations:
Do first what's good for you and then for the other side...

This is not applied to family and same-sex (provided you're straight) friendship relations. But to love affairs is a must!

 

[Fushigi]

Bill, are you still friends with any of your "ex"-es?

As mentioned in another thread, I am still friends with my ex-wife. But it wasn't an overnight transition and she's not a friend that I get together with on any regular basis.

Once we were divorced, she moved out. Actually, she moved from Hammond to Michigan City. We talked on the phone periodically over the next couple of years. During that time I wasn't seeing anyone; I felt I needed time away from relationships to heal & understand the experience so that I (hopefully) wouldn't repeat the mistakes in the future.

I didn't concentrate on grokking the experience; instead I let my subconscious work out the details for me over time. I don't think I could have figured it out without being alone. Living with her or being involved in any other relationships would not have granted me the perspective I needed to understand all aspects of what happened.

As has been said, a clean break, as hurtful as it will be at first, is what you need to heal. You need to let her know what her presence is doing to your emotional state and that you won't be able to get on with your life as long as she's still playing a major role. I sincerely believe that her remaining as a roommate will do nothing but prolong your pain and defer your healing. Leaving may place her in a difficult situation, but that is the path she has chosen (or was chosen for her) and she must be prepared to handle the consequences.

NW IN is not going to be a good place for her to pursue what she's after. While people of similar interests are everywhere, the ability to meet, maintain, and express relationships is more limited. A more liberal area -- like Bloomington, IN -- would be a better environment for her. She going to IU-NW? Could she transfer to IU-Bloomington?

- Fushigi

 

[Cliptin]

Additionally, not breaking it off cleanly may do more harm to your friendship in the future. You very well may wind up bitter towards her in the future.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Additionally, not breaking it off cleanly may do more harm to your friendship in the future. You very well may wind up bitter towards her in the future.

Exactly.

 

[James]

A saying of my father's has always rung true for me : "It's always better to make a bad decision than no decision at all." You have to take responsibility for your own life, you can't try to be everything to everyone. Trying to keep everyone happy usually results in no-one being happy - Shakespeare gives some great advice in Polonius's speech, of which perhaps "... and this above all : to thine own self be true" is the most important and identified as such.

In fact, a speech worthy of inclusion in its entirety, methinks :

LORD POLONIUS
Yet here, Laertes! aboard, aboard, for shame!
The wind sits in the shoulder of your sail,
And you are stay'd for. There; my blessing with thee!
And these few precepts in thy memory
See thou character. Give thy thoughts no tongue,
Nor any unproportioned thought his act.
Be thou familiar, but by no means vulgar.
Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried,
Grapple them to thy soul with hoops of steel;
But do not dull thy palm with entertainment
Of each new-hatch'd, unfledged comrade. Beware
Of entrance to a quarrel, but being in,
Bear't that the opposed may beware of thee.
Give every man thy ear, but few thy voice;
Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man,
And they in France of the best rank and station
Are of a most select and generous chief in that.
Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
This above all: to thine ownself be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell: my blessing season this in thee!

Anyway, I've said my bit.

 

[Mercutio]

I went to a big charity function last night; met several folks who share Amy's current lifestyle. None of them, out of nine, had heard of a supportive "ex." Apparently I'm supposed to turn into a horse's ass and give my ex-girlfriend all the more reason to change. I haven't done that and apparently that puts me in "uncharted territory", even when eight of the nine women I talked to had a story similar to Amy's.

I don't know whether I'll be able to actually stay with her much longer. She's well on her way to her first "experience" - found a few candidates online - and that's tough for me. On the other hand, she's getting to the point where her parents are asking questions she can't easily answer and that's going to be a major stress for her without some help.

I suppose right now I'll continue to make the same bad decision I'm making, at least until she crosses a couple more hurdles.

 

[flagreen]

Last time I looked, you were a human being too Mercutio! You may not realise it but you need more help right now than she does. Get out of there! You are in a very unhealth enviroment living there. It's time you started taking care of yourself first you owe that not only to yourself but to your parents and friends as well. And we demand you start taking care of you first!

 

[James]

Okay, I can't help myself - I need to say one more thing.

You need to think if you were in Amy's position, would you do the same thing to her as she is doing to you?

 

[Mercutio]

Um, it's an odd situation. I'm the first to admit that. But yes, she would stay, if that's what I wanted. And I would. Our friendship is exceedingly important to both of us and so is the support we've provided each other for our entire lives.

I'll say, too, that there is a DISGUSTING lack of help online for anyone trying to support another person in a lifestyle choice: There's plenty for the person in question, and TONS of "de-programming"-like material. Not much else.

I see a need there.

 

[flagreen]

And how much support is she giving you now in your time of need? Does she realise what this is doing to you? Have you told her? Is she aware of how hurtful this is for you?

 

[Mercutio]

She feels extremely guilty. There's nothing to be done about it, really. Her perspective is that she's in a relationship that is everything she wants... except for the little matter of my gender. She has expressed concern that she might be throwing away her chance at happiness, but at the same time, for as much as she tried to pretend otherwise, her physical need is an important part of her life and something she needs to explore.

So there's not much I could add to that.

Support is a funny thing. When Amy didn't get into med school on her first try, helping her through the decision to go for a master's degree was basically a no-brainer.
Now, when Amy's getting nervously-flirtatious responses to her online personal ad, it's kind of hard to decide what the right way to react is. I decided to cheer, but I really had to do a self-check to make sure it was a genuine thought on my part.

 

[jtr1962]

She feels extremely guilty. There's nothing to be done about it, really. Her perspective is that she's in a relationship that is everything she wants... except for the little matter of my gender. She has expressed concern that she might be throwing away her chance at happiness, but at the same time, for as much as she tried to pretend otherwise, her physical need is an important part of her life and something she needs to explore.

This sounds to me like she's still in love with you but has physical needs that you can't fulfill. One thing curious about all this is why did it take her so long to discover that she, um, preferred woman? And since it did, maybe her desire is really more of a curiosity than an actual sexual preference. She may try to satisfy that curiosity, and find out that the grass is really not greener on the other side. I won't even pretend to understand any of what she's going through(frankly, I don't understand homosexuality, nor do I wish to) but those are my thoughts on the matter.

I'm not even sure of how to advise you in this matter since your relationship with Amy seems very complicated. Sometimes hearing stories like yours, or people in unhappy marriages, makes me think that I'm better off not complicating my life with relationships. I was seriously in love with someone quite some time ago, and the whole affair left such a bitter taste in my mouth that I haven't dated since. I can only hope that you don't go through something similar.

 

[flagreen]

Well you'll probably hate me for saying this Mercutio but if she really loved you she wouldn't be doing this to you. Having been married twice myself I can tell you that one is occasionally tempted by others. Even if just out of curiosity. But one does not give in to this temptation because he or she loves their mate. Which means they not only have what we all know as feelings of love but also includes respect for each other and loyalty. Don't be confused by the fact that her attraction is for other women. It is no different than if she were attracted to, and willing to experiment with, other men. Would you put up with that as well?

 

[Mercutio]

That's the gist of the situation. As for unexplored curiousity, the best analysis I've had so far is that certain aspects of my personality make/made the experience of being with me as close to fulfilling as they could be for her.
Read into that what you will.

Several close friends of mine are gay, but they realized their preference in adolesence. I really hadn't considered how hard it actually is to make the fundamental change in identity that my "ex" is now going through, and that is a big part of the reason I'm still here.

As far as understanding homosexuals goes, I guess the easiest thing to say is, "why the hell should anybody care?" It's upsetting on some level that it's an issue at all. Does anyone get upset if the people next door are vegetarians?

 

[flagreen]

Has anyone suggested to you that may be in the early stages of the grieving process which is typically a state of denial?

 

[Mercutio]

Bill: Yes, within the limits of her taking responsibility for her health and well-being, and being honest with me about her actions.

Of course, I trust her enough to not do that, too. And the issue is now apparently moot.

Love is a great many things to different people, I guess.

 

[Mercutio]

Has anyone suggested to you that may be in the early stages of the grieving process which is typically a state of denial?

Yes. I'm painfully aware of that possibility.

 

[flagreen]

Well time heals all wounds. I feel for you having been there myself. No offence intended in anything I've said here.

 

[Mercutio]

She has told me. Now she knows, and I know.

On June 30th, 1997, we became a couple. On June 30th, 2002, she told me that none of it mattered any more.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Sam, these calculations make you worse, don't you understand?!

Let it go and she might be back before you know it. Or you might find another before the end of this year...
Just let it go, let it be.

 

[Groltz]

She has told me. Now she knows, and I know.

On June 30th, 1997, we became a couple. On June 30th, 2002, she told me that none of it mattered any more.

Condolences.

The date that will now become the most important is the one where old ties are broken and you can forge ahead to a new and positive future with someone worth your attentions.