Intel vs. AMD? ATI vs. nVidia?

[James]

Such a controversial topic that the forum ate my post last time.

Anyway, to sum up :

Since Jake will soon be the happy owner of my dual Athlon mobo, CPU and RAM, I'm looking for a immediate replacement and hoping for some advice. Here's the scenario :

What am I buying :
- Motherboard
- CPU (2.4 GHz range - probably the best place on the price/performance curve right now, possible overclocking)
- RAM (probably 512MB)
- Video card (GF2 GTS starting to get a bit long in the tooth)

What will I use it for?
In rough order:
- Office tasks (In order, Visio, Project, Word, Excel, Powerpoint, mail)
- Games (mostly new FPSes)
- Web browsing
- Occasional Photoshop (building cable map posters etc.)

How long do I want it to last?
18 months is my usual upgrade cycle for motherboards/CPUs. My graphics card upgrade cycle seems to be about 2 years.

Random thoughts
- Not fussed about Intel vs. AMD. I haven't owned an Intel system since the Athlon came out, however I'm not religious about being in one camp or the other. Basically, I buy what I have had success with in the past.
- Current Athlon heat output somewhat scares me.
- Not interested in RDRAM.
- More interested in the SiS648 chipset than the KT333 or KT400. Why? Little bit nervous after my experiences with the KT133 chipset. KT400 seems a bit flakey according to reviews. Would quite like DDR400 support for futureproofing considerations.
- I own an Audigy. Haven't had any problems with it, but I only run the drivers, not the whole Playcentre thingo.
- Stability and speed are key for me. Then comes value for money.
- I don't currently own any Firewire or USB2 devices.
- The HD will be a 60GB 740DX which I own already, unless I break down and buy a WD x00JB. This will depend on component costs.
- The Radeon 9700 looks awesome but is very expensive. Considering a 4200 Ti (I have had great success with nVidia in the past - TNT, GF256, GF2GTS) but dunno about 64MB vs 128MB and the overclockability question.
- I run a Enermax 350W Whisper PS in an Inwin Q500N case. Might go with a smaller case.
- I will be running Win XP Pro.
- Would like help on choosing a quiet CPU fan/heatsink combo, perhaps 80mm. Needs to be available in Oz.

I'm really looking for the best value vs. future potential at the moment. Any thoughts?

 

[Mercutio]

My only thought is that nvidia's products, across several brands, have been utter, utter crap for me, and I'd hate for a friend to get stuck with something that bad.

I don't see any reason for ANYONE to purchase the super-high-end graphics cards. By the time anyone gets around to making a game that uses their features, a mid-range or budget card with the required feature set is always made available. For a casual gamer, buying a $100 - $120 card every year beats the hell out of buying a $300 - $400 card every two.

I've had good luck with KT333, and I've been ignoring Intel lately. The past track record of no-names like SiS and ALi scares me a lot more than any issues I might have with Via chipsets.

 

[blakerwry]

Mercucio... SIS is a big name... however, i have heard that VIA resorts to Intel like tactics and makes Mobo manufacturers sign contrancts that they will only sell VIA chipsets, etc... if they want low cost VIA chipsets...

Would like help on choosing a quiet CPU fan/heatsink combo, perhaps 80mm. Needs to be available in Oz

OK, onto the suggestsions... I found a great little toy from thermaltake

You can go all out and get this 4 fan rheostat type controller
http://www.thermaltake.com/products/hdcooler/hardcano8vr.htm

or

be cheap like me and get this one fan 3 position switch (makes my ~6000RPM CPU fan run at ~3000, ~5000, ~6000 RPM's)
http://www.thermaltake.com/products/accessories/switch.htm

Here's thermaltakes list of Oz retailers
http://www.thermaltake.com/where/distributorau.htm


I personally think thermaltake makes a good product and i have local resellers of their stuff, so I buy it whenever possible...

they seem to ahve several options for socket 478 CPU's (including low profile heatsinks).. on their newer coolers they integrate temp sensors and/or speed settings so that your fans don't run unneccessarily fast.

Maybe check out HardOCP for HSF reviews/comparisons....

The Radeon 9700 looks awesome but is very expensive. Considering a 4200 Ti (I have had great success with nVidia in the past - TNT, GF256, GF2GTS) but dunno about 64MB vs 128MB and the overclockability question.

It's really a toss up... personally, I'd get the geforce 4 because it is lower priced here(kansas city, USA) and I ahve had better experences wiht Nvidia.... I think 128MB is overkill... By the time games need 128MB ram the GPU will probably be too slow to run them anyway.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

- More interested in the SiS648 chipset than the KT333 or KT400. Why? Little bit nervous after my experiences with the KT133 chipset. KT400 seems a bit flakey according to reviews. Would quite like DDR400 support for futureproofing considerations.

Actually I would be very careful NOT to choose anything but a VIA-based mobo for an Athlon box. SiS is a company with zeniths and nadirs... I wouldn't trust them, as I wouldn't trust yet a nForce2 product unless really competitively priced.

Long have gone the days where we were lamenting chipset instabilities based on mal-trimmed VIA solutions. I think the first big step of stability and performance came with the KT133A. The trend continued with the KT266A (the chipset I use for more than a year now 24/7 on an ASUS mobo) and now good results have been achieved with both KT333 and KT400. I don't know where have you seen the bad reviews regarding the latter, but this mobo review at AMD3D doesn't seem to agree very much.
Also take an extra second to notice ALL the goodies this wonderful ASUS motherboard is offering. And don't forget even the unofficial support for DDR400...

My conclusion: AMD and VIA live a happy marriage...

 

[Jake the Dog]

i can vouch for recent Thermaltake hsf's. the ones i've used (Volcano 6 & 7+) were solid, well designed units that were effective in cooling my athlons.
i've had great success with Nvidia products and have used every generation video card Nvidia has made from the original riva onwards. i've used them with Intel, Via and SiS motherboards that were often oveclocked. i've had success with overclocking Nvidia card too. i don't use beta drivers and i stick to mainstream brands, mostly Asus and Leadtek and lately some of the Gaiward Golden Sample releases too. in short, by putting together a quality branded components and using a sensible driver policy, i've rarely had a problem and have found Nvidia cards always a pleasure to use.

currently i'm using a 64MB Leadek GF4 Ti4200 in my personal system. I've managed to over clock it to core 300MHz/memory 560 and it benchmarlks in Ti4600 territory. it has a huge wrap around heatsink which allows it to overclock well and maintain healthy temps. btw, did you know that most manufacturers of 64MB 4200's are putting 3.6ns memory?

Dan from DansData.com wrote an interesting column in the august edition of Atomic magazine in which he explained the need, or rather lack of need, for 128 MB on a video card. basically he explained why just over 32MB was enough for todays most recent releases and that 64MB would be plenty for the coming years, even considering the rate that game technology is going forward.

 

[Jake the Dog]

oh i forgot to add, in my experiences i've found that Intel cpu's work best with Intel chipsets and AMD with AMD or Via chipsets.

if you must have a 8x AGP, then the Asus PFSX8 looks like a winner. even though it's got a SiS chipset, i've read some great reports on it. see: http://www.asus.com/mb/socket478/p4pe/overview.htm. it also has one ATA133 channel and two Serial ATA ports.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

As for the graphics adapter... I don't believe there is a clear winner either. Currently nVIDIA is much more penetrating in the games market but for the time being, and at least till Christmas, ATI will have the edge on performance and features with its current 9000 series.

Isn't AIW9700 a dream? Jee, I wish I had those €500...

 

[James]

Actually I would be very careful NOT to choose anything but a VIA-based mobo for an Athlon box. SiS is a company with zeniths and nadirs... I wouldn't trust them, as I wouldn't trust yet a nForce2 product unless really competitively priced.

The SiS 648 is a P4 chipset.

About the Thermaltake heatsink/fan combo - what would you guys recommend in the quiet end of things?

Serial ATA is an attraction since it adds a degree of future-proofedness.

Bad reviews of KT400? Not as such, just nothing really positive (or negative, admittedly) to say. The interaction with DDR400 memory seems a bit flakey, as does AGP 8X. There seems to be little benefit over KT333, basically.

 

[James]

To add - I think I'm interested in buying a board with DDR400 support (where it makes a difference in performance), and S-ATA support. Intel or AMD really depends on which platform gets the greatest benefit from the combination I think.

 

[Tannin]

I think you've got three choices, James.

1. Buy now: best value. KT-333 board (any decent brand), Athlon XP 2000, Sparkle Gforce III Ti200 64MB. The boards are getting very cheap now, the XP 2000 is cheap too, and the Sparkle Gforce III is a lay-down knockout. Current buy prices (wholesale, ex-tax) are around $160 for the motherboard board (Epox have one with USB 2.0 at that price) and $199 for the video card.
   For: Fantastic value, good upgrade prospects, well-proven, stable components.
   Against: Not the absolute fastest you can buy.
   Summary: 95% of the performance, 65% of the cost.
   
2. Buy now: best speed. Pentium 4 in the 2.5GHz class, Leadtek Gforce 4 Ti4600.
   For: Marginally faster, best video card money can buy.
   Against: Much more expensive, expected useful life very little different. Upgrade prospects no better than, and quite possibly not as good as the Athlon 2000 solution.
   Summary: For wankers who have too much money.
   
3. Buy soon: best all-round. Athlon XP 2600ish, video card TBA but probably a Ti4600 by then, mainboard choice can wait until the KT-400 is proven or the SiS entry demonstrates its merit.
   For: Easily the fastest of the three. New process runs cooler. You will probably pay $100 to $200 less for the video card than you would pay today. The only one of these three that gives you both a battle-tested chipset and 400MHz FSB. (Unless you count the P4, which I don't - faster FSB is pointless if the CPU can't utilise it.)
   Against: You can't get it for another few weeks.
   Summary: Overall best choice unless you just can't wait.

 

[Clocker]

James-

My OCZ Goliath coolers with temp controlled 80mm fans a very quiet in my dually set-up. Good info here:

http://www.3dgameman.com/vr/ocz/goliathse_cooler/video_review.htm


The cooler sucks rather than blows.

C

 

[P5-133XL]

James-

The cooler sucks rather than blows.

C

I always thought any cooler that blows also sucks depending upon orientation. Your's however is attached to a black hole: I'm impressed.

 

[Mercutio]

I'd suggest waiting just a touch to see pricing on the 333MHz FSB Athlons. If nothing else you'll get a "free" price drop on your 2400-ish CPU but since an FSB improvement is usually worth a few steps in CPU power, it might be worthwhile to move up a bit more.

For a video card, I just bought a 128MB, dualhead ATI Radeon 9000 for a system I'm putting together. It cost me $93. I don't have any high-end games on it but its box say "DirectX 8.1 support", which is probably good enough for anything that's coming out in the near future. The games I *do* have look sweet on it., even those running through emulated Glide.

 

[cas]

Current Athlon heat output somewhat scares me.

The 2.4G Pentium 4 is probably the better buy at the moment; however the heat issue is greatly overstated.

Typical Thermal Power:
Pentium 4 2.4G 57.8W Tcase 70C
AthlonXP 2400+ 59.3W Tcase 85C

1.5W can't be that frightening.
Also, the P4 will require more airflow.

 

[CougTek]

James,

The Pentium 4 2.4GHz with the 533MHz FSB is currently the best bang for the buck CPU from Intel if you don't want to overclock. If you do want to try the o'cing route, then try to get a 2.0A of a late revision with the 400MHz FSB frequency. The most recent Pentium 4 are good up to ~3GHz with the retail heatsink. You might reach +3.2GHz with a superior heatsink or an exotic coooling solution, but then the "bang for the buck" aspect suffers a bit.

For stability at high FSB frequency, GigaByte is hard to beat on the Intel side (their KT400-based isn't bad either for the Athlon platform). If you want PC3200 RAM, opt for their SiS648-based motherboard (GA-8SG667). If you want to save a bit on the RAM then go for their i845PE implementation (GA-8PE667 Pro). The i845PE is a tad faster with DDR333 memory, but slightly slower than the SiS648 with DDR400. GigaByte's socket478 motherboards are the most stable when several DDR400 memory sticks are pluggued in. They are less expensive than the Asus versions of the same chipsets. The GigaByte boards offer less overclocking options in the BIOS, but their exceptional design allow them to match (and often beat) the overclocking result of their competitors (ie - A GigaByte without voltage ajustment will reach most of the time the same frequency or higher than an Asus or Abit with all the options your heart desires. These guys are good).

Plain Samsung DDR333, or DDR400 if you want to play safe, should be enough. No need to pay more for exotic brands like Mushkin, OCZ, TwinMOS and the like. Corsair sticks are very good, but they probably won't give you more than an additional 10MHz over a simple Samsung stick, so IMO, they don't worth the extra $$$.

I really liked the Radeon 8500LE 128MB as a graphic card, but it has now vanished from most places. Unlike the GF4 Ti 4200, the Radeon 8500's perforamnces did improve quite a bit with the 128MB version compared to the 64MB. The new Radeon 9000 (even the higher clocked "Pro" version) is slower than the old 8500, so don't bother. Like you said, the Radeon 9700 is expensive...and it sucks a fair amount of juice too. You have to plug a floppy power connector to it in order to feed it enough. The AGP slot alone isn't supposed to be enough according to what I read (I haven't taken the chance not to plug the extra wire just to test if it was true). As much as I prefer to push ATI's cards instead of NVIDIA's, with the 8500 out, the second best value seems to be the GeForce 4 Ti 4200. Depending on the review, the extra 64MB of RAM of the 128MB version does or doesn't make a difference. IMO, for the small price difference between the two (try to get the Leadtek A250, great value), I'm willling to recommend the 128Mb version just in case next year's games benefit from the extra amount of RAM.

Not exactly small like you wrote you would like your next enclosure should be, but the Compucase CI-6919 is a great case for the money (12cm exhaust fan + front air filter).

 

[Mercutio]

Compucase has a web site that's in English? That's news to me.

I really like the Compucase 6812.

 

[time]

Ooh, ooh! We can actually get the Compucase in Oz! (feigns shock)

If you look at CougTek's link, you can also see the 6A19, which might be more your size. They both have a washable gauze filter, BTW, at least in the version we get here.

James, as we speak, we can't even buy the Athlon 2400 here. To quote our official AMD distributor:

* AMD XP2200 now available!
* AMD XP2400 coming soon!

You're probably looking at about AU$450 for a P4 2.4/533, vs about $360 for an Athlon 2200. As Tony points out, the Athlon 2000 is better value at about $240. Personally, I'd go with the Athlon 2000. Ironically, it's not fast enough for what I want, but neither is the P4 2.4, and IMO there's not enough difference to justify the cost.

If you're obsessive, you could always get an Athlon MP and set the FSB to 333 (166x2) with a lower multiplier (seeing it's unlocked).

I couldn't see any demanding requirements in any of your applications. I don't think you need a fast CPU or a fast video card. And I agree with Daniel Rutter of DansData that by the time games need 128MB, you'd be better off with a newer card - Coug's observations notwithstanding.

I'd be saving up for a DVD-RW, a better home theatre system, a 21" monitor (or a giant LCD that I can tolerate), etc, etc. Or maybe just getting my cars fixed.

 

[Clocker]

James-

The cooler sucks rather than blows.

C

I always thought any cooler that blows also sucks depending upon orientation. Your's however is attached to a black hole: I'm impressed.

Heh heh. Clever, I think. I don't know what you're trying to say there. Yes, the OCZ sucks air up-through-and-out of the heatsink rather than blowing air down onto the heatsink.

Actually, you should have stated that any fan that blows also sucks. Coolers don't blow or suck, fans do.

What did you mean by the 'black hole' comment?


C

 

[Tea]

Black Hole: a celestial object that absorbs radiation but does not emit it (because of the extreme gravitational field). The idea of a fan that sucks without blowing is apt.

 

[blakerwry]

Coolers don't blow or suck, fans do.

I dunno about that, i've had some really sucky Heat sinks before... try a cyrix or a radio shack heat sink...


Does anybody miss the old 486 heat sinks that actually clipped onto the processor and not the motherboard/socket?

those things were easy to upgrade

 

[SteveC]

And I agree with Daniel Rutter of DansData that by the time games need 128MB, you'd be better off with a newer card - Coug's observations notwithstanding.

According to Epic, UT2003 uses up to 256MB with all the details set to the highest. I can believe it too, since my 64MB card stutters when it loads new levels with maximum settings.

Steve

 

[SteveC]

I was wrong, it only uses 180MB.

At highest texture detail some levels might use up to 180 MByte of data (textures + geometry) and if you have a lot of players this number might be even higher

It's the last post on this page.

 

[James]

Thanks for all this guys.

That's the problem for me, that the (real) release of the 166MHz Athlons is so far in the future, and I don't really have the time to wait. I'm also thinking that there's Claw Hammer coming up late next year, perhaps it's best to just tread water for the moment until AMD rises into the ascendancy again.

The difference between a P4 2.0A and a P4 2.4B here is only AUD60...

David, like you I'm also sort of saving up for various things - a pair of 17-18" LCD panels, a 42" plasma screen, an upgrade of my home theatre, that sort of thing. So this is sort of an interim upgrade.

As far as I can tell I can buy a P4 2.4G, GA-8SG667 and 512MB of DDR400 RAM for AUD1114 retail.

An Athlon solution looks like a 2000+XP, MSI KT4 Ultra (say), and 512MB of DDR333 RAM for AUD764.

 

[Jake the Dog]

plasma screens have comes down dramatically in price haven't they? i've been saving to buy an XGA LCD projector in march next year but after watching bathurst yesterday on a 42" sony plasma i'm not sure now...

 

[time]

According to Epic, UT2003 uses up to 256MB with all the details set to the highest. I can believe it too, since my 64MB card stutters when it loads new levels with maximum settings.

That's not what Vogel said, Steve. He said there could be up to 180MB of data, but AFAIK that doesn't mean your video card needs 180MB of RAM. Apart from the ability to suck it through the AGP port, the use of texture compression is likely to bring that right down.

He actually said that they examine the amount of video memory when determining how much detail to show, and that a 256MB card was the default trigger to display the maximum amount of detail. But he also said that this was conservative and could easily be overridden, meaning you don't necessarily need 256MB to display this.

FWIW, Epic's official FAQ still recommends 32-128MB. Perhaps you need to look elsewhere for your stuttering problem? AGP issues?

Anandtech ran some UT2003 benchmarks back in July. In those, a Radeon 8500 benefited by 3 to 6% when going from 64MB to 128MB (at 1600x1200 high detail), but a GF4 4200 actually went backwards about 10%.

 

[blakerwry]

I wouldn't doubt if the memory clocks are slightly different between some 64 and 128 cards of the same chipset.

I wonder how the vid card's cache is adjusted(if at all) for the extra RAM....


Steve: I think that's pretty common for the computer's I've seen to stutter a couple times at the beginning of a level(Athlon XP 1600-2000, 512MB RAM with geforce 2-4).

My personal computer is a 1700+ w/ 512mb pc266 and geforce3 Ti200. I turned down one of the visual settings(cant tell the difference) ... and I think i set the audio to something that made more sense... the stutter went away.

 

[time]

I'm also thinking that there's Claw Hammer coming up late next year, perhaps it's best to just tread water for the moment ...

Like I said, none of these options are fast enough to really make a difference to what's bugging me. Clawhammer will very probably change that. :mrgrn:

Your pricing seems keen (as usual), but I'd just like to make two comments:

1) I don't believe DDR400 (PC3200) is any kind of standard yet. More significantly, I'm not convinced genuine DDR400 chips are available. AFAIK DIMMs with this rating are still using DDR333 chips - can anyone confirm or deny?

2) Based on other people's experiences (and my own personal bias), I've formed the impression that Gigabyte might be a safer bet than MSI. In other words, I'm listening to Coug. Or to put it another way, never buy the latest and greatest from MSI - version 1.1 preferred.

 

[James]

I think DDR400 modules are indeed correctly clocked, ie. they're not overclocked DDR333 modules. True, it's not a standard yet, but as long as it works in the board, that doesn't really matter.

Yes, there's an equivalent but slightly less well equipped Gigabyte board. The MSI board got a good review over at Anand's, but who knows?

 

[Tea]

I'd trust Gigabyte before I trusted MSI to get it right. I don't know where MSI's sudden reputation as one of the majors has come from. They always used to be regarded as just another average generic 386 board maker back when they put "Microstar" instead of "MSI" on their boxes, and I have yet to see anything much to persuade me that they have changed.

And no: "big company" or "average turnover" does not suffice to make you into one of the "majors", only consistent quality can do that. And in my estimation, MSI don't deliver it. In fact, I'm not sure that they ever have.

They are a long, long way above the PCChips of this world, that goes without saying. But then, so is everyone. I'd suggest that MSI deserve to be ranked together with other firms that maintain the same sort of quality standard, such as PC Partner. (Though, to be honest, I've not seen nearly as many bad PC Partner boards as I have seen bad MSI boards. PC Partner seem to be a firm with a fairly poor rep who make a surprisingly large number of fairly reliable boards, while MSI are a firm with a fairly good rep who make a surprisingly large number of downright dodgy things - ASUS are another: their entry-level boards can be terrible.)

There seem to be three kinds of MSI board: Decent, unremarkable boards with pretty colours; fussy, tricky things that work OK if you treat them just so; and downright terrible stuff that isn't much better than ECS rubbish. My on-again, off-again experience with MSI is that for any given model, you stand a roughly one in five chance of getting the third one, two chances out of five of each of the first two.

(Did I mention that I've stopped buying MSI boards because of their RMA rate? Or could you guess?)

First-rate makers: Gigabyte, Soltek (but only in Athlon boards, not too sure about their Intel product).

First reserve (buy when you can't get Gigabyte or Soltek): Epox, possibly Abit and A-Open though I'm not too sure about these.

Second-rate (but still quite good a lot of the time): ASUS, MSI, PC Partner.

Third-rate: don't bother.

 

[time]

Probably irrelevant, but last time I heard, Soltek was the manufacturer of Via's own brand of P4 boards. So if you wanted a Via P4 solution, they would definitely be the ones to try.

I think Tea's a little tough on Asus and MSI, putting them below Abit (owners always reckon their Abit board has been a pillar - for some it's a pillar of rock, and for others it's a pillar of ...) Check out the percentage of posts on Via's support site that from Abit owners.

I think the issue with Asus and MSI is it depends on which board. In all probability you can still get best of breed products from these manufacturers, but Soltek and Gigabyte get a better rap for better consistency. My two cents.

 

[Tea]

Yup: fair comment, Time. My assessment of Abit is almost entirely based on reputation. We did have a box of ten KT-133 boards a year or so ago, which all went perfectly, but that's about it. A-Open, the same applies. Were I to try them more regularly I might feel differently.

As for ASUS, we have had some wonderful ASUS motherboards over the years, and some genuine horrorshow ones too. Their entry-level stuff tends to be quite horrid these days. Their higher-end boards we try to avoid, as they are shockingly expensive and don't seem to offer any particular advantage over good quality cheaper boards, such as Gigabytes. Their earlier Athlon boards were horrible things: we never had to send one back but we had masses of trouble getting them to work right.

 

[Buck]

MSI is still not a major player as some expect, and their motherboards are still not the best at stability or quality - albiet, they are very good. MSI tends to be more aggressive with new technology, more so then Gigabyte or Soltek. That is why MSI still hasn't reached that crown of quality or stability; they're more interested in innovation. For me, this is an interesting position to take as a motherboard manufacturer. Considering how quickly new technology comes out, it really doesn't make sense to always be the first. Being 2nd is just fine if you can use that extra time to develop excellent stability, compatibility, and reliability.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

MSI is still not a major player as some expect, and their motherboards are still not the best at stability or quality - albiet, they are very good. MSI tends to be more aggressive with new technology, more so then Gigabyte or Soltek. That is why MSI still hasn't reached that crown of quality or stability; they're more interested in innovation. For me, this is an interesting position to take as a motherboard manufacturer. Considering how quickly new technology comes out, it really doesn't make sense to always be the first. Being 2nd is just fine if you can use that extra time to develop excellent stability, compatibility, and reliability.

Ditto.
I used to have MSI and I praised their innovating mobo, albeit some instability issues. Performance is also more than adequate.

 

[Mercutio]

I've never used an MSI-anything, but I've had some decidedly awful experiences with Abit and Asus. Gigabyte's been good. One DOA (an AMD 750-based board) out of about 60 purchases, which is pretty good.

As I think back, I'm having a pretty hard time thinking of a brand I've had better luck with. FIC's 503+, maybe?

 

[Buck]

I have had good success with MSI video cards, and continue to use them. I know some aren't with me on this, but again, my experience has been good.

 

[Jake the Dog]

i must say, i'd rate gigabyte as excellent in terms of stability too. at a guess i'd say i've built around 100 gigabyte system over 5 years and only once do i remember having a problem with one of them, a dual p-pro board. the most stable motherboards i've worked with is Intel (do they actually make them?)

of the brands that i've used at least several times it rate my overall experiences with them as such:

good
Gigabyte
Intel
Iwill
MSI
Tyan

average/OK
Asus
Epox
Abit
FIC

bad
Aopen
PC Chips

 

[blakerwry]

What do you guys think of Soyo products?

I bought a dragon plus and have been pleased with it's performance and stability...

One thing that bugs me is that their printed manual said that it supported bank by bank ECC... turns out this is false and I now have a 256MB stick of samsung PC 2100 ECC (bought from crucial.com) that is getting dusty.... anyone care to take it off my hands?

the manual was corrected in later revisions...

 

[Pradeep]

Is it registered?

 

[NRG = mc²]

I've had one Soyo - perfectly stable and good features for the price.

 

[blakerwry]

Is it registered?

nope, sorry... I put it up on the for sale/trade forum because I think I will probably never use it.