Iraqi crisis explained...

Mercutio

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Given the enormous costs of war, both in terms of gross economics and in human lives, I don't see how the cause could be given at anything less than "beyond all doubt".

Moving trucks doesn't do it for me. How about some plutonium or a work on delivery system?
 

Cliptin

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Jake the Dog said:
what level of proof would I accept? only proof beyond all doubt. this means verified images, sounds, confessions, etc. I stress the word verified.

would you accept anything less for something as consequential as war?

I understand that the proof may exist but I do not have high enough clearance to see it. There is of course the possibility that the proof does not exist and security clearance is being used for a cover. Powell said during his briefing that he could not tell all he knew. He also indicated that he would reveal more in private meetings than he would reveal in open session.

At some point you so have to trust your own government is doing the right thing.
 

Mercutio

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When the issue is "Iraq" and the president's name is "Bush", I can't do that. Shrub is too close to energy interests in the US, who want to exploit Iraq's oil reserves. He's also close to the evangelical xtian portion of the republican party, which seeks to protect Israel on the basis of the Biblical description of the Rapture, and then there's the whole issue of the legacy of his father ("Saddam tried to kill my dad.")

Nothing about this situation adds up. Why wasn't this an issue shortly after King George II took office (note choice of words), if he was so damned worried about it? Why wasn't it an issue during the 9-11 morass? Why ISN'T North Korea a major issue? They are similarly flaunting agreements regarding weapons of mass destruction and, if I had to guess, a lot close to getting some, given that they actually have their own supply of fissionables... and they're admitting it.

If there is really any proof (not photos of trucks that move around), the matter is then settled. At that point it ceases to be "Intelligence" and becomes the blunt instrument that gets the world behind the effort to disarm Iraq. I don't see a problem. All President Asstard (don't even start with me, Bill. I'd spit on him before I'd shake his hand, and happily serve the assault sentence I'd get for it) has to do is tour around his "conclusive proof" to the leaders of whatever nations happen to oppose his plan of atta^H^H^Hction. Nearly as I can tell that has not happened, and I'm left with the conclusion that such evidence does not yet exist.
 

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It is so difficult for us as private citizens to make informed judgements on what is taking place, when much of the proof presented is filtered and sensitive information, which cannot and will not be released for public record.

What we can do is make judgements on the information that we do have, and place some faith in the many individuals that do have access to full intelligence. Do we honestly believe that our President or his staff takes lightly sending soldiers into harm's way? And let's not forget, GW is not the only individual involved here. I'm not a war-monger, and I don't believe anybody really wants the conflict to materialize in the form of war.

However, let's look at some facts: Saddam Hussein is a brutal, cold-hearted man who has proven time and again that he is out for one person: himself. Consider this profile of the man we are playing games with: Saddam Hussein was born to a woman that both tried to commit suicide and have an abortion while carrying Saddam. He was physically and psychologically abused by his step-father, running away from home at eight. His uncle assumed responsibility for him, a man who at one time had participated in a pro-Nazi revolt against Britain. Saddam was born and raised in evil, and has perpetuated evil. He has grown to power through violence and intimidation. He has and will use everything in his arsenal to perpetuate that power.

Post predicts that faced with the threat of UN inspections, Saddam will try to repeat the evasions and subterfuge of the past decade in an attempt to avoid a war. "He is not a martyr. He is a quintessential survivor," the psychiatrist insists. But on the other hand, he will never give up his arsenal of mass destruction, which Post says are essential to his self-image as a world-class leader. "Big boys have big toys," as he puts it. "Without the weapons, he's nothing." (extracted from an interview with Dr. Jerrold Post, former CIA psychiatrist)

Clearly a dangerous man, clearly a threatening future. To me, there is clearly enough reasonable doubt to substantiate action.

Okay boys, fire away!
 

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Mercutio said:
Why ISN'T North Korea a major issue?

It is. It is both tactically and politically difficult, as well.

CNN.com said:
With Seoul less than 80 kilometers (50 miles) from the Demilitarized Zone that separates North and South Korea, U.S. military planners have had a difficult task in constructing a blueprint for any possible conflict with Pyongyang.

The Korean army is estimated at one million strong, with air, sea, and both short and medium-range missle capability, some that can carry chemical payloads. And with more highly advanced nuclear capability, Korea presents and even greater risk. It has been suggested that action against Iraq needs to be taken to prevent it from becoming a North Korea. We had an opportunity to disable their nuclear capabilty under Clinton's administration, but we aborted the plan because North Korea froze their nuclear program. Now they have grown to a point where we believe they may even have several crude nuclear devices.

In this conflict, it is even more to our advantage to come to a peaceful resolution, if possible. It's the old "choose your battles" routine. But, it is also believed that we should be willing to take more drastic measures:

CNN.com said:
Ashton Carter, who served as Assistant Secretary of Defense during the Clinton administration, says that on today's evidence the need for a tough U.S. stance is more important than ever.

"A nuclear North Korea is a disaster," he says.

"We were willing to risk war to prevent that in 1994. I believe we should be willing to risk war now -- I hope it doesn't come to that and that diplomacy works."

North Korea has sold to others almost every weapons system it has ever developed.

The fear is if it built enough nuclear weapons, North Korea might also sell them.

There is no doubt in my mind that North Korea is an issue, an issue that our leaders are considering very gravely.
 

Mercutio

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Dozer said:
What we can do is make judgements on the information that we do have, and place some faith in the many individuals that do have access to full intelligence. Do we honestly believe that our President or his staff takes lightly sending soldiers into harm's way?

I've used the word unctious to describe GWB, and after my father's time as an officer in the Navy, I'm aware that the being in harm's way is what soldiers and sailors do. This is very clear when I hear about soldiers described euphemistically as "military assets" (rather than, oh, "Human beings").
Take it lightly? I don't know. I don't think the highest levels of command are losing much sleep, though.


Saddam Hussein was born to a woman that both tried to commit suicide and have an abortion while carrying Saddam.

Are you seriously suggesting that: 1.) Suicide or abortion are evil?!? I'd call suicide an extreme and very possibly liberating lifestyle choice, myself, and abortion, well, we already have something fun to talk about right now, but let's just say my moral valuation would be considerably more positive. 2.) That this person's personal development was impacted by the fact that his momma didn't love him as a zygote? I might give you "raised in evil", but not "born". Now, maybe if he did an "Alien" out of his mother's womb...
 

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So we'll deal with/Bully the potential North Korea that might, someday have nuclear weapons, instead of the actual North Korea, which basically issues a diplomatic statement every day that says "We're this much closer to having THE BOMB, what are you gonna do about it?"

OK.

I guess that makes sense

Thanks for clearing that up.
 

The Giver

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Mercutio,

The North Koreans want to establish normal trade relations with the U.S.. That basically is what is behind the current "crisis". It is rumored that they already have a few nuclear devices. Anyway they are "negotiating" with us through the press. They are refusing to talk with any third parties insisting they want to speak with us directly. Colin Powell just today in the Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing said that will be speaking directly to them. Each nation, Iraq, and North Korea must be dealt with according to the unique geo-political circumstances surrounding each situation. And the North Korean "crisis" will be resolved peacefully I am sure. After all they have something we want - that is them to stop selling anything and everything weapon wise to anyone with the cash. And we have something they want - normal trade status so that they can feed their people.

Iraq poses a different and more direct threat to America. That is through the manufacture of biological and chemical weapons which could be passed on to terrorist organizations. As I'm sure you are aware, recently an al-Qaeda cell was busted in the UK in possession of the deadly poison ricin. I'm not saying they got it from Saddam (though ricin was at one time in his arsenal) but it does illustrate the danger of such things falling into the wrong hands. And Iraq is a state sponsor of terrorism.

I'm not sure what you fellows mean when you say you want proof. Proof of what? That Iraq has wmd? That they would use them? That they sponsor terrorism? All of those are provable. Even the French accept it as fact that they have wmd. Why do you think Clinton bombed Saddam several times under his watch? Was he after oil too?

As for the question of would Iraq ever pass on wmd to others to use against the U.S., we wouldn't know that for sure until it was too late. I for one don't want to wait that long.
 

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There has been a widespread Australian intelligence community view, since at least the mid-1990s, that Iraq still has chemical and biological weapons, and may have developed additional capability since the Gulf War.

Most observers believe it would be extremely difficult, though, for Iraq to covertly develop nuclear weapons.

Whether or not Saddam Hussein's possession of these weapons poses an external threat remains undetermined. George Tenet, the director of the Central Intelligence Agency, in a letter to the US Congress last October, provided a CIA assessment that Iraq did not pose a threat if left alone, but could become a problem if attacked. Saddam has used chemical weapons in the past against Iran and, internally, against the Kurds.

Concerns that Iraq may provide weapons of mass destruction to terrorist groups seem misplaced, however, given Saddam's mistrust of those he cannot control, and the likelihood that any terrorist use would be traced back to Iraq.
...
A top secret British defence intelligence document written three weeks ago, and leaked to the BBC in the past few days, says there had been contact between Iraq and al-Qaeda in the past, but the relationship foundered due to mistrust and incompatible ideologies. The report says bin Laden views Iraq's ruling Ba'ath Party as an "apostate regime".
Clive Williams, Director of Terrorism Studies, Strategic and Defence Studies Centre of the Australian National University.
 

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From the New York Times;

C.I.A. Letter to Senate on Baghdad's Intentions
ollowing is the text of a letter dated Oct. 7 to Senator Bob Graham, Florida Democrat and chairman of the Intelligence Committee, by George J. Tenet, director of central intelligence, about decisions to declassify material related to the debate about Iraq:

In response to your letter of 4 October 2002, we have made unclassified material available to further the Senate's forthcoming open debate on a Joint Resolution concerning Iraq.

As always, our declassification efforts seek a balance between your need for unfettered debate and our need to protect sources and methods. We have also been mindful of a shared interest in not providing to Saddam a blueprint of our intelligence capabilities and shortcomings, or with insight into our expectation of how he will and will not act. The salience of such concerns is only heightened by the possibility of hostilities between the U.S. and Iraq.

These are some of the reasons why we did not include our classified judgments on Saddam's decision-making regarding the use of weapons of mass destruction (W.M.D.) in our recent unclassified paper on Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction. Viewing your request with those concerns in mind, however, we can declassify the following from the paragraphs you requested:

Baghdad for now appears to be drawing a line short of conducting terrorist attacks with conventional or C.B.W. against the United States.

Should Saddam conclude that a U.S.-led attack could no longer be deterred, he probably would become much less constrained in adopting terrorist actions. Such terrorism might involve conventional means, as with Iraq's unsuccessful attempt at a terrorist offensive in 1991, or C.B.W..

Saddam might decide that the extreme step of assisting Islamist terrorists in conducting a W.M.D. attack against the United States would be his last chance to exact vengeance by taking a large number of victims with him.

Regarding the 2 October closed hearing, we can declassify the following dialogue:

Senator Levin: . . . If (Saddam) didn't feel threatened, did not feel threatened, is it likely that he would initiate an attack using a weapon of mass destruction?

Senior Intelligence Witness: . . . My judgment would be that the probability of him initiating an attack — let me put a time frame on it — in the foreseeable future, given the conditions we understand now, the likelihood I think would be low.

Senator Levin: Now if he did initiate an attack you've . . . indicated he would probably attempt clandestine attacks against us . . . But what about his use of weapons of mass destruction? If we initiate an attack and he thought he was in extremis or otherwise, what's the likelihood in response to our attack that he would use chemical or biological weapons?

Senior Intelligence Witness: Pretty high, in my view.

In the above dialogue, the witness's qualifications — "in the foreseeable future, given the conditions we understand now" — were intended to underscore that the likelihood of Saddam using W.M.D. for blackmail, deterrence, or otherwise grows as his arsenal builds. Moreover, if Saddam used W.M.D., it would disprove his repeated denials that he has such weapons.

Regarding Senator Bayh's question of Iraqi links to Al Qaeda. Senators could draw from the following points for unclassified discussions:

¶Our understanding of the relationship between Iraq and Al Qaeda is evolving and is based on sources of varying reliability. Some of the information we have received comes from detainees, including some of high rank.

¶We have solid reporting of senior level contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda going back a decade.

¶Credible information indicates that Iraq and Al Qaeda have discussed safe haven and reciprocal nonaggression.

¶Since Operation Enduring Freedom, we have solid evidence of the presence in Iraq of Al Qaeda members, including some that have been in Baghdad.

¶We have credible reporting that Al Qaeda leaders sought contacts in Iraq who could help them acquire W.M.D. capabilities. The reporting also stated that Iraq has provided training to Al Qaeda members in the areas of poisons and gases and making conventional bombs.

¶Iraq's increasing support to extremist Palestinians coupled with growing indications of relationship with Al Qaeda. suggest that Baghdad's links to terrorists will increase, even absent U.S. military action.

When viewed in it's entirety the letter is not so comforting imo.
 

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I have wondered if the last point is actually an important factor in the Bush administration's motivation. Perhaps we should be looking at this from what is in Israel's interests, rather than the United States?

For what it's worth, I think the CIA's conclusion in that point is completely unsupported by their argument.

As a former deputy director of the Joint Intelligence Bureau and a member of the National Intelligence Committee, I am unconvinced about the veracity of the United States' intelligence reports presented to the United Nations by the US Secretary of State, Colin Powell.

This intelligence comes from three sources - satellite photography, communication intercepts and informers. The photos produced could be interpreted in many ways, the intercepts from the huge US resources could only come up with two middle-ranking Iraqi officers discussing the movement of something they wanted to hide, while informants will usually produce any information you want to hear if you pay enough.

The alleged connection between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda is ludicrous. So US intelligence believes that there is an al-Qaeda supporter in Northern Iraq! There is probably also one in Australia but to suggest that, as a consequence, the Howard Government supports the al-Qaeda organisation is laughable.

I can't forget that the American excuse for sending troops into Vietnam was that the US destroyer Maddox had been attacked by two North Vietnamese patrol boats in the Gulf of Tonkin. This statement by the US president was subsequently admitted to have been false.

For the past several months the UN inspectors have been free to go anywhere in Iraq without any prior notice. One wonders why, if the US intelligence knows where the weapons of mass destruction are located, the US didn't tell the inspectors where to look.
Major General Alan Stretton (Sydney Morning Herald)
 

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The, I'm more than aware on North Korea's essential blackmail attempts. They've been doing that for years. Heck, the whole reasons NK SAID it stopped work on a nuclear program is that the US offered it fuel oil and food in exchange for shutting it down.

Here we have an identifiable "rogue state" with means and motive for building WMD, in violation of various treaties and obligations. The game they're playing might very well be called brinksmanship, but one would certainly think that there would be an equivalent response to the one the US has offered to Iraq.

North Korea, arms dealer to the world, has a missle that can reach Japan. North Korea, arms dealer to the world, has a nuclear pile that can apparently make weapons-grade fissionables. North Korea has been in a state of war since the mid-50s, is not a member of the UN, and is shunned by almost every nation on earth, save those few with whom it does business. Like Saddam's Iraq, there's nothing to lose.

So where is the sword of the US? Pointed at Iraq. Not even a waver. George can turn an address to university of Chicago economists into a tirade against Saddam Hussein, but he can't spare a moment to say: "North Koreuh shouldna have nukulur weapons either."?

Even China has cordially asked North Korea to put the nukes down, which is more than we can get China to do about Iraq.

China 's divorce from the current situation certainly suggests that we should have a free hand in applying a carrot AND a stick in attaining the cooperation of Kim Jong Il, and IMO, with the UN considering action against Iraq and conducting its inspections, the US certainly should have an opportunity to stabilize the east-Asian situation that's developing. Nonetheless, the president just keeps pushing harder and harder against Saddam.

Iraq's biological and chemical agents? So? Anyone who wants that stuff could have it. Mustard gas was used in WWI, and is nasty as all hell. Ricin is a byproduct of industrial processes in common use. Dosing is tough to predict, and any chemical weapon depends on variables in its destination environment (e.g. the Sarin released on the subway in Japan. There was unquestionably enough Sarin to kill many people, but becuase of conditions on the train, most people were only made ill) .A decent micro lab can be outfitted for maybe $250,000 (coldstore, incubator, autoclave, chromatograph, cleanroom and maybe a $$$ gene sequencer if you're ambitious), and there's lots of unpleasant biological agents in the world to tweak into something just as nasty as smallpox or anthrax. Viral payloads are easy enough to engineer that undergrads do it in the US.
These are weapons of terror. Chemical agents are going to impact only a localized area. Biological stuff is scarier and cheaper, yes, but hard to store and deliver properly (hope that culture stayed under 10 degrees C!), and a "The Stand" nightware scenario of a fast-spreading/slow-killing bug is as likely to kill you as your enemy, so I'll discount that one a bit.
That leaves... nukes. Nukes can be small (the US had a towed single-use non-critical 10 ton - not kton - weapon in the 60s). If I remember my chemistry right, something like five lbs. of enriched uranium can make a bomb that WILL hit critical mass. Nukes also have some interesting delivery technologies, although the most practical one is limited by the rocket science of a particular nation (accepting for the moment that it's difficult to smuggle a nuclear weapon around the world in, say, a backpack or carbomb form). Nukes seem to be the most credible WMD.

Terror weapons is terror weapons. The next state or organization that uses one beyond its borders will, without a doubt, be reduced to component molecules, but of the three types, in my consideration, only nuclear weapons can produce certain, lasting damage for its target (not to mention the psychological impact of a mushroom cloud, high levels of radioactivity and environmental impact). An important thing to keep in mind.


So proof? See above. Nukes or a delivery system for them.
 

The Giver

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time said:
I have wondered if the last point is actually an important factor in the Bush administration's motivation. Perhaps we should be looking at this from what is in Israel's interests, rather than the United States?
Well David there have been scores of Americans killed by the Hamas suicide bombers in Israel in addition to Israelis. I don't believe the Interests of Israel are being put ahead of U.S. interests. Although there are common interests the two nations share which clouds the issue.


For what it's worth, I think the CIA's conclusion in that point is completely unsupported by their argument.
Well it's certainly not supported directly by the statement. I don't know what their rational is for reaching that conclusion.


From what I gather Major General Stretton is quite skeptical about an Iraqi war. But I think his dismissive attitude towards Powell's address to the Security Council betrays a severe bias on his part.
 

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Mercutio,

Great post. Let's remember that this development with North Korea didn't even arise until last fall by which time the current effort to square away Iraq was well under way. Here is an article from the Brookings Institution which directly addresses why Iraq and not North Korea right now;

North Korea Is No Iraq

Slate, October 21, 2002

Michael E. O'Hanlon, Senior Fellow, Foreign Policy Studies

With last week's news that yet another tyrannical, belligerent rogue state is secretly developing nuclear weapons, U.S. policy-makers and citizens can be forgiven for feeling overwhelmed. Instead of contemplating a two-front war against Iraq and al-Qaida—if it happens, the country's first two-front fight since World War II—the Bush administration must now figure out how to avoid a three-front conflict.

The good news is that North Korea is not Iraq, and Northeast Asia is not the Middle East. In one significant way, North Korea is a much more formidable problem than Iraq, because it is probably already a nuclear power and has been for a decade. It operated a small nuclear reactor years ago, primarily during the first Bush administration. It is believed to have produced enough plutonium and reprocessed enough of the resulting spent fuel to actually build one or two bombs. Since acquiring the fissile material is far harder than assembling the other components for a simple bomb, North Korea should probably be assumed to possess one or two nuclear weapons.

But North Korea presents a very different kind of threat than Saddam Hussein's regime. As Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage noted, North Korea has not started a war in half a century—whereas Saddam has started several in the last 25 years and used weapons of mass destruction widely in the process. In addition, there's an ongoing diplomatic process between North Korea and the United States, as well as U.S. allies Japan and South Korea—a stark contrast to the near total absence of communication between the United States and its allies and Iraq.

And despite its secret nuclear program, North Korea has generally behaved itself over the last 10 years. In fact, this last decade has probably been the best in the country's history in terms of its relations with the outside world. In the 1980s, it brought down a South Korean airliner, assassinated several members of the South Korean government, sponsored other terrorism, and sold half a billion dollars' worth of arms a year to other extremist states.

But in the 1990s, Pyongyang began to open up to South Korea and engage the United States diplomatically. Its arms exports declined by a factor of almost 10 (more because of geopolitics than choice). Its active support for terrorism essentially stopped. It did continue to develop and launch long-range missiles until 1998, but then agreed to a moratorium on flight tests.

To be sure, this North Korean reform had more to do with necessity than virtue. North Korea lost the subsidies that it had formerly received from the Soviet Union. The peninsular military balance turned strongly against it. Hundreds of thousands of its citizens starved to death in a famine. And it finally recognized it had lost the economic competition to the South. North Korea has even begun to mimic, if in a limited way, China's economic reforms of two decades ago.

The change, of course, has not gone nearly far enough. North Korea's economy remains a mess, and its political system remains Stalinist. And, as we learned last week, it has not lost its grandiose military ambitions. Even after agreeing to shut down its large-scale, above-ground nuclear program in 1994 as part of the so-called Agreed Framework, North Korea appears to have decided to start a "basement-bomb" program around 1997.

There is some reassuring news on the technical front: Basement-bomb programs are slow and inefficient. Rather than build large nuclear reactors that bombard uranium with neutrons to form plutonium and then chemically extract that plutonium as North Korea probably did to develop its first one or two bombs, an underground bomb program requires energy-intensive devices that mechanically or electromagnetically separate lighter U-235 from the heavier U-238. Only U-235 can sustain the chain reaction needed in a bomb, but it constitutes just 0.7 percent of natural uranium. The separation process can use various devices (centrifuges that spin uranium in gaseous form, diffusion membranes through which uranium passes, calutrons that are essentially giant magnets), but all are complicated, expensive, and slow. If North Korea was still trying to acquire steel or aluminum to build centrifuges as recently as this past summer, it may not have made much progress yet toward acquiring what could be its third nuclear device.

So, for a combination of strategic and technical reasons, there is no particular urgency about the North Korean situation. That said, the status quo is unsupportable over the longer term. Former Defense Secretary William Perry's words from 1994, which he has just repeated in a Washington Post op-ed with Harvard Professor Ashton Carter, remain true today: The United States cannot let North Korea develop a nuclear arsenal. One or two bombs are one thing, an indefinite and growing number are another. Just as the Clinton administration inherited a mess from the first Bush administration and had to devise a way to prevent North Korea from developing half a dozen bombs a year using new reactors, the second Bush administration must now find a way to fix the mess we are still in today.

What are our choices? Pre-emptive war to overthrow North Korea's regime is an unpalatable option. Given the proximity of Seoul to North Korean artillery, the huge size of the North Korean army, and the ferocity of North Korean fighters (assuming they retain some of the attributes they displayed in the Korean War 50 years ago), any such war would almost surely lead to hundreds of thousands of casualties. And pre-empting North Korea's nuclear program, as the Clinton administration threatened to do eight years ago, can only work against large, fixed, known sites. It is probably not an option against a secret basement-bomb program. So, military force is a last resort.

But North Korea, unlike Iraq, may well respond to diplomatic pressure. It might be convinced to dismantle its new nuclear program and allow frequent verification inspections, if the United States, South Korea, Japan, and other countries such as China threaten to stop fuel-oil shipments that have been part of the Agreed Framework and perhaps impose economic sanctions. This appears to be the approach the Bush administration favors, based on a recent report in The New York Times.

Full article here - http://www.brook.edu/views/op-ed/ohanlon/20021021.htm
 

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This piece from the BBC highlights what I think most of us agree on: that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has seriously undermined US credibility in the Middle East.

The threat of war with Iraq is the most current source of Arab anger with the United States but it is the intractable conflict between Israel and the Palestinians that lies at the root of the problem according to Professor Saad Eddin Ibrahim at the American University in Cairo.

"The Palestinian question in the mind of Egyptians and other Arabs is very much like the Jewish question in the mind of the Europeans."

"If you are European you feel a moral responsibility towards the plight of the Jews during the Holocaust."

"Our holocaust for the Palestinians was 1948 and the two or three decades that followed and that weighs very heavily on the minds of every Arab," he said.

"Palestine has tainted our vision and has tainted the world for us for the last 40 years."

"Our feelings towards any outside power must go through the Palestine test. And America in the last three or four years has failed that test miserably."

Or to put it another way, the US blindly supports our hated enemy, and now they want to invade one of countries.

I guess you could even argue that with a better situation in Palestine, other Arab states would be more likely to pressure Saddam to roll over, rather than just muttering discontentedly.
 

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The Giver said:
Here's some further data from the U.S. Dept. of Energy which outlines oil contracts Iraq has with France and Russia. It is not insignificant to note that these contracts will not be worth the paper they are written on after Saddam is deposed... hint... hint.

Yes, and after the war, the US will control those oilfields.
 

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Pradeep said:
The Giver said:
Here's some further data from the U.S. Dept. of Energy which outlines oil contracts Iraq has with France and Russia. It is not insignificant to note that these contracts will not be worth the paper they are written on after Saddam is deposed... hint... hint.

Yes, and after the war, the US will control those oilfields.

Maybe. But certainly not if the action in Iraq is UN sponsored. This is why some countries will jump back on board. Heck, Oz will control some even if it's not UN sponsored.
 

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Cliptin said:
This is why some countries will jump back on board. Heck, Oz will control some even if it's not UN sponsored.

it's not anyones but Iraq's oil to have to own or even control...

trouble is, corporations & governments and many, many individuals worldwide think they can have it even though they have no indigenous right to it. can you say stealing?
 

The Giver

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No one is going to steal the oil in Iraq. As Jake says, it belongs to the people of Iraq and no one else. It is up to them to decide what to do with it. In time I believe you will see that Iraq will remain an independent nation and will sell it's oil to whom it wishes to. Although I mentioned that the existing contracts for future oil production and export could be voided through a change in government, I don't believe they actually will be. But that's up to the people of Iraq decide. But there isn't much point in discussing what is going to happen because I'll never convince those who believe the oil will be "stolen" otherwise. And they will never convince me this is all about oil. I can just hear the cynics now when the very first load of oil is sold at market price to a U.S. oil company - "I told you they were going to steal it!".
 

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Jake the Dog said:
Cliptin said:
This is why some countries will jump back on board. Heck, Oz will control some even if it's not UN sponsored.

it's not anyones but Iraq's oil to have to own or even control...

trouble is, corporations & governments and many, many individuals worldwide think they can have it even though they have no indigenous right to it. can you say stealing?

Er, I didn't mean control in perpetuity. I suspect that some oil will be appropriated to those countries who participate to help pay for it. We aren't there to own another country though. With as much problems as we have internally it would be self destructive to try it half way around the world. France sure hasn't found it easy.
 

its.fubar

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I have a few unpleasant thoughts for you all to consider?

the first one of course is how many jails of corrections facilities are there in the world today because the sad fact is there is not enough to contain all the new so called terrorists that will be curated after the war in Irak.

Second: it is certainly a fact the military war in Irak will be a one sided affair with the USA and GB coming out on top of the Initial battle, but here's the question who is going to pay for the rebuilding of that country and who is going to control it.

Third:who will win the war for the mines of the people of Irak?

Fourth: if Israel after all these years cannot win over their terrorists what makes you think the coalition governments will win over the Irak People and their terrorists.

Last:"I believe there is an old Arab saying"
If today is not a good day to fight We can always come back tomorrow ?
it gives you something to think about doesn't it.
how long do you think the war for the peace will go on after the initial battle is won? and do you think the present president of the united states and the prime minister of England will still be in power or will they be a distant memory when the world is still fighting the new terrorists they have created ?
 

slo crostic

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The obvious answer to all of these questions is to leave these people to their own devices and stop harassing them to the point where they feel they need to terrorize the rest of the world.
well, IMHO anyway.
 

P5-133XL

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blakerwry said:
time said:
Why worry? It's only money. Let's just mint some more ...

No! No! No! There's no room in our budget to run the mints!

You should see what happens when governments start running out of money - See Oregon's budgetary problems and cry a little (or alot, if you are in need and living in my state).
 

Tea

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Google-french-military-vict.gif
 

its.fubar

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Normally I would have to agree with you that the French are a country with their only claim to fame is there wine but this time I believe they have something constructive to say only a Bully Kicks a person when he is down and cannot fight back, Isn't there enough death and destruction in the world today without curating more.
 

Tea

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Oh, no real offence intended. IF. The French are going ballz out to protect their mazzive investment in Iraq - i.e., to keep the Saddam regime in power long enough to pay off some of the Franks he borrowed. But they are certainly no worse than the Americans under Shrub - the more time goes by, the more isolated an belligerant the USA is looking. But I didn't pozt that pic to make a point, I just pozted it because it waz funny.

I'll insult someone else next week.
 

The Giver

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Tea said:
Oh, no real offence intended. IF. The French are going ballz out to protect their mazzive investment in Iraq - i.e., to keep the Saddam regime in power long enough to pay off some of the Franks he borrowed. But they are certainly no worse than the Americans under Shrub - the more time goes by, the more isolated an belligerant the USA is looking. But I didn't pozt that pic to make a point, I just pozted it because it waz funny.

I'll insult someone else next week.

You know... it's not always easy being The Giver. Here again it's me against 90% of the rest of the Forum. Isolated and beliegerent - just like my country. :)
 

Mercutio

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Perhaps the Giver should consider that, since the vast majority of Europeans and a large percentage (I don't know about majority, though) of Americans are AGAINST THE WAR, they might have a valid point.

Something else to consider: The country that receives the most military aid from the US is Columbia. Columbia has the worst human rights record in the Western hemisphere. Columbia's government is currently being accused of chemical warfare against its own citizens - its government has decided that indiscriminantly spraying "RoundUp" on peasant villages is a good way to control drug production.

Or, to put things another way, Columbia, a right-wing government that the US likes gets to use WMD against its citizens, and for that we reward them with extra planes and bombs and guns, while Saddam in Iraq, who had the exceedingly good taste to want George the First dead (Saddam's one and only good point. I'd love to read the english tranlation of the romance novel he put out in 1999, though) also gassed his citizens, is the worst person in the whole wide world.

That makes perfect sense to me.

With our current leadership, I can see us as "the Imperial States of America" before the end of the decade. It really is just that close.
 

Howell

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Whiiiiiiiiiiiizzzzzzzzz.
This is the sound line being drawn out of a reel. Only slightly more satisfying than fishing with dynamite.
 
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