Looking for a new MB

ddrueding

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Well, the K8T800 chipset seems to be getting a little long in the tooth. Time to evaluate a new board. The only features I'm really interested in are:

1. A64 Mobile support (this means socket 754, more requirements here)
2. S-ATA (at least 2 ports, RAID irrelevant)
3. Gig-E integrated into NB, ideally supporting Jumbo Frames and PXE
4. Passive North Bridge
 

Tannin

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No. No. Please no. Please don't inflict an ASUS board on yourself. Buy something reliable. Buy something that doesn't have such a stupidly long and ridiculous list of component compatibility restrictions that you can't even buy RAM for it without problems. Buy something where they actually tell you up front about their compatibility restrictions, instead of waiting until you have struggled with something trying to make it work for weeks before they just happen to discover yet another restriction. Buy something where the company actually gives a damn. Buy something from a manufacturer that isn't constantly so far up its own "we are the best in the world" arsehole that they actually pay attention to detail and worry about quality control, instead of assuming that being the self-appointed "best in the world" makes you immune from problems.

There are worse boards than ASUS. PC-Chips make worse boards than ASUS. At least they used to. So do ... er ... I don't think I can think of anyone else that I know for a fact makes worse motherboards than ASUS. But there are bound to be some. MSI on a bad day would run them close. MSI on a good day beat ASUS hollow. But I try to avoid MSI boards almost as hard as I try to avoid ASUS junk: there is just no way to tell if they are building a quality product this month or not.

Buying MSI is like putting your money in a slot and pulling the handle, hoping for a small win. Buying ASUS is like putting your money in the toilet and pulling the chain. You can be virtually certain that what comes out the other end will be watered-down sh*t with hard little lumps in it.
 

ddrueding

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Uh, OK. I haven't used an ASUS board since my P5A, but that was fantastic. For the most part, I thought they'd managed to maintain their reputation; so I didn't know their QC had slipped.

I'm still tempted, as I have no experience with the other mfgrs on the list:

Chaintech VNF3-250 Zenith Value Edition
DFI LANParty UT nF3-250Gb
Soltek SL-K8AN2E-GR
Gigabyte GA-K8N Pro

I used one Gigabyte board, but that would require a BIOS update and another CPU swap to make it work...
 

BooST

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Tannin - Don't know why the Asus bashing, I've had nothing but excellent experience with everything Asus. From video cards to motherboards, I've never had a single problem, speaking from my A7V, A7V333, 2x A7N8Xs, and a plethora of video cards, I have nothing bad to say about them.

I say Asus, or Gigabyte if you feel like switching CPUs.
 

time

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Ddrueding, I realize you've just had a bad experience with a Gigabyte board, but I'd suggest the GA-7NS Pro - except that the jury is still out on how well it supports mobile 64 CPUs. There's at least one guy on the relevant Anandtech thread who had no trouble, but a few others who did.

Why are you using the mobile chips anyway? To overclock?

That Asus is not one of their budget specials so could be reasonable, but by all acounts it's a mixed bag.

Bar81[/url]]Okay, I'm REALLY annoyed at this board when it comes to the Silicon Image controller and the BIOS.

Drawbacks to this motherboard:
1. Only 2.7v VDIMM
2. The Silicon Image SATA controller IS A BIG FAT PIECE OF CRAP. My numbers were HALVED versus my Promise FastTrack TX2 Plus PCI adapter I was using for RAID 1.
3. WHY IN THE HELL do I have to make my Raptor on the Nvidia SATA a single drive in a RAID 0 array when I use the Silicon Image controller for my Storage Drives in RAID 1. The only way I could get the system to work when I set up RAID 1 on the Silicon Image Controller was to make my Raptor on the native SATA controller a single drive in a RAID 0 array. It doesn't seem to affect performance of the Raptor but it REQUIRED A FULL WIN REINSTALL which I am *still* NONE too happy about.
4. IDE performance still sucks and has major issues but to be fair these are nvidia driver issues and not specific to Asus.
5. Crap AMI BIOS and updates. Flashed to both 1.04 and 1.05 BIOS and I am unable to boot properly with my Plextor PX-712SA SATA burner attached. System just continues to reboot and I'm unable to access the BIOS. BIOS updates to regress in support; just genius.

Overall, I'd have to give this board a 7.5/10 as what's the point in having 4 SATA ports you can't even use because their performance sucks so bad as well as requiring a full freaking win reinstall just to have that ass sucking perfomance. It also doesn't help that there's the VDIMM limitation and the IDE is crap. On the plus side, it's rock stable with my setup and performance for SATA on the native SATA ports is phenomenal. I really wish Asus would go back to providing motherboards with the quality of yesteryear. It's just inexcusable that this board is this late with these problems (not to mention it took four full BIOS revisions before they fixed the overclocking issues)
 

ddrueding

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DFI? I've never even heard of them...

I do have a bad taste about Gigabyte....might still do ASUS, though Tannin's warning does carry quite a bit of weight,
 

Tannin

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ASUS bashing? Huh? That was being kind to them!

Seriously now, of all the motherboards we have dealth with in recent years, ASUS have been the worst. I mean it: clearly the worst of the lot.

Note, however, that we generally try to steer clear of the known crap manufacturers: PC-Chips and the various other no-name low-life scumbags around, so saying "ASUS are the worst" might not mean that they are worse than that BargainBonzo SuperCheap you picked up at a swap meet last weekend, just worse than any of the more-or-less reputable brands we deal with, and have seen a sensible number of in the last three or five years. I'll list the ones that occur to me, though doubtless I'll miss a few.

* Gigabyte
* Albatron
* Asrock
* Epox
* Biostar
* MSI
* A-Bit
* Soltek
* FIC

Come to think of it, though, there is one brand that we have handled in the reasonably recent past that demonstrated a roughly equally poor reliability record, and that was A-Trend - and, as we all should know by now, A-Trend is yet another PC-Chips alias.

Since the days of Socket 7, we have had nothing but trouble with ASUS.

We bought some ASUS Athlon Classic boards because all the overclocing types said they were the best and could we get one in for them. So far as I remember, not one of those boards ever actually went faulty, though we sold maybe six or eight, and a similar number of the follow-on Socket A board for Thunderbrds. But every single one of them gave us setup problems. Yes, every one. The plug and pray system on those things was an absolute disaster. This was back in the days of Windows 98, remember, and lots of boards required that you fiddle around a bit to get the IRQs sorted out, but these ASUS horrorshows were a complete bitch. Sometimes it would take hours to do a simple Windows reinstall, and in a couple of cases, days. I'm not kidding. So far as resource allocation goes, they were far, far worse than any other motherboard I have ever worked on, before or since.

We tried one each of the ASUS SiS-based entry-level Celeron/PIII board. Both were faulty, right out of the box. We got them replaced. After the standard 8 to 10 week ASUS wait, they came back. One was still faulty, the other worked for a couple of years before it failed. We have seen one or two of these boards not bought here too, and they also camre into us faulty.

Various others came and went. There was a late-model Thunderbird / early model Athlon XP ASUS board that (I have no idea why) we sold two or three of, and had at least one of them fail spectacularly. The replacement took three or four months to arrive and was DOA. The replacement replacement seems to work OK but I'm afraid to trust it.

And finally, there is the most recent crop of over-priced, under-engineered ASUS junk. For some reason not known to god or man, all the overclockers and heavy-duty gamers went bananas about an ASUS Nforce II-based board a while back. They were overpriced to buiggery and seemed to offer no advantage over similarly-specced boards from quality manufacturers such as (for example) Gigabyte, but the gaming morons insisted that that was the board they wanted and, like a fool, I got boards in for them. We sold somewhere around 8 of those boards, and most of them gave at least minor troubles. (In this context, a "minor" trouble is making one to three trips into the workshop with stability complaints. Typically, by the time we had the third different set of RAM in them they would decide to start working more-or-less reliably. Either that or their owners just got tired of complaining about their unreliable systems and stopped bringing them in to us. But there was a good deal more to the recent-model ASUS saga than that. Several of the boards (I forget the exact number, but roughly one-third of all the boards we sold) had major problems requiring RMA service (complete, of course, with the usual interminable ASUS shipment delays). One of them went back three times before the owner finally gave up and sold his system off to some poor unsuspecting victim and bought a Gigabyte board — which worked flawlessaly right from the start, of course.

The long and the short of it, ASUS are the most over-priced, over-rated, over-hyped bundle of junk it has been my misfortune to work with in the last five years.
 

Bozo

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I haven't had any problems with the few Asus boards I've bought. But, they were for Intel CPUs and used Intel chipsets. Maybe it's not so much Asus as it is the chipsets that they use, like VIA???

Bozo :mrgrn:
 

Tannin

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Congratulations Bozo. You just won my Silliest Post of the Week Award. Every motherboard manufacturer on my list above uses VIA chipsets, but only two of them — A-Trend/PC-Chips and ASUS — manage to stuff them up so comprehensively. (No, correct that, MSI can also make a right royal stuff up out of a perfectly good little chipset when they put their minds to it. But then they turn around and make an excellent board with their next product. Go figure.)

Further, out of the half-dozen ASUS horrorshows I listed, I explicitly mentioned three of the worst ASUS boards we have ever been unfortunate enough to have inflicted on us, and mentioned that these three used non-VIA chipsets: SiS (two different boards) and Nvidia (the most recent and quite possibly worst example). It's not that ASUS can't make a decent motherboard using a VIA chipset, the fact of the matter is that ASUS can't produce a decent board at all. Or so it seems. The last time we saw an ASUS board that demonstrated decent reliability and compatibility was back in Socket 7 days with their odd-ball but nevertheles effective ALI chipset board for the K6-2. Back before that, they had a very good SiS 5571-chipset board for K6 Classics and Pentium MMX.

Maybe their Intel chipset stuff is good. I hope their boards for P4s are good, because their Athlon boards have a terrible record. We have sold precisely one ASUS P4 board. The machine came in for persistent problems to be looked at just the week before last and as soon as we realised it had an ASUS motherboard, Kristi and Michael and I all groaned, because we could just about put London to a brick that it was a motherboard problem, and (being a P4 board) there wouldn't be any spare boards closer than Melbourne (80 miles east of here).

But we would have lost London and gained a brick: in this particular case, the board seemed to be OK and it was a power supply problem. Lucky for us! Power supplies we have on hand. This was the only ASUS P4 board we have ever seen, and as it is still working, it lets me state without fear of contradiction that we have a 100% succes rate with ASUS P4 boards. :)

Touch wood. :(
 

Mercutio

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... and I've never had a problem I could attribute to a Via chipset, even though that's part of the overwhelming majority of the boards I use.

My Asus A7N8X and A7N266 both have weirdo sound problems which I believe are nforce-driver-related. My A7N8X rejected three Mushkin DIMMs before I found a pair of Corsairs and a Kreton module that it liked.

Asus' BIOS upgrade setup requires a physical floppy drive - which is totally absurd in this day and age. Gigabyte can update a BIOS over the internet but Asus can't work from a bootable CD-ROM?

I don't have any complaints about Asus other than that per se, but there's NO WAY I'd ever buy them, at their current prices (i.e. out of line with everything else), if I didn't desire that combination of the nforce audio and onboard SPDIF connectors.
 

Buck

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I haven't used a great variety of Asus boards, however, the several A7N266-VM/AA boards I've used, and the older P5A-Bs all have worked flawlessly, and continue in operation today. Well, not quite, most of the Socket 7s have been upgraded.

Recently, I purchased a low-end budget Celeron system just to test a few components -- what disappointment. Would anybody like to purchase a Celeron 2.4GHz (256K cache) system with 512 MB of RAM?
 

P5-133XL

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No thank you! That would be hard to justify even at just the cost of shipping. Those old Celerons are real dogs.

I've had real problems dealing with Via chipsets, but that was quite a while ago. I still remember the pain and to this day still avoid all Via chipsets. I mentally explain the reason for not having recent problems with them by mentally noting that I have no Via chipsets to cause those missing problems. Whenever doubt and buying temptation enters, I remember that pain and note that I no longer have any Via chipsets -- The relief sweeps over me and all is right in the world: The temptation mearly washes away.

Asus motherboards may be the lowest of the low but I've not had that experience and thus I don't shy-away. I agree with Merc., they are expensive compared to equivalents with nothing to justify the premium.
 

Bozo

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Interesting. The brief exposer I've had with VIA chipsets was on a Tyan motherboard. All 5 of them gave me nothing but grief. Most of it was driver/BIOS related if I remember correctly.

The 4 Asus boards that I've installed went without a hitch. . And yes, they were pricy. (P4C800-E Deluxe?)

Everything else has been Intel boards, Crucial memory, and Antec power supplies. Not one has given me any problem.

Bozo :mrgrn:
 

ddrueding

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Now that I'm thinking of it, I have had more recent expreience with ASUS. I have about a dozen servers running A7N8X (-E, -X, Deluxe) and XP 2500+, and my home system was similar for a while. I don't know why I spaced on that earlier...this is my third day straight, time to make a purchasing decision! :roll:
 

Handruin

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Even though you listed DFI in your post, you've never heard of them :?:
 

ddrueding

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Handruin said:
Even though you listed DFI in your post, you've never heard of them :?:

I listed them in my post as they were referenced in another thread that I linked to in my OP. I have personally never seen nor even read a review of one of their boards or other products. Before reading their name on the list I hadn't seen it before anywhere.
 

ddrueding

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time said:
Why are you using the mobile chips anyway? To overclock?

Quite the opposite really; I really like having a quiet and cool system. The best way to do that I've seen is to start with a cool CPU. This system will only have a single undervolted 120mm fan (ducted from a XP-120 (see below) heat sink to a modified power supply). Getting the lowest heat with acceplible performance is all I really want. The VIA EPIA stuff is too slow and the Pentium-M for desktop is too expensive with too few choices.

Even locking the A64 to 800Mhz @ 0.9V gives quite acceptible performance for my needs. Any guess on how much power it's taking?

Top_01.jpg






Oh, DFI: "Defence from Infidels"? No, it's probably something really stupid and corporate.
 

Tea

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Nope. Dave, Merc is correct. Their modern-age marketing weenies may have come up with an ultra-boring new set of words to go behind the letters now (I didn't know that till you posted) but DFI really does stand for Diamond Flower Internatonal. Merc gets the freebie.

(And thankyou for backing my play there, Bartender.)
 

Tea

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But while we are at it, this business of making up not-quite-sucky new names to go behind old initials is pretty common — especially given the extreme suckiness of some of the old Tiawanese and Korean company names.

So, for another free drink, what does "LG" really stand for?
 

ddrueding

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Interesting...

Funny how this technique is used by major companies in the US as well.

SBC used to mean "Southwestern Bell Corporation". It no longer does. Anyone care to place a guess?
 

i

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ddrueding said:
SBC used to mean "Southwestern Bell Corporation". It no longer does. Anyone care to place a guess?

It might have used to have stood for Southwestern Bell Corporation at one point, but I was told by a connected source in that industry that today it no longer stands for anything ... it's simply a name leftover from a bazillion mergers and restructurings.

Then again, maybe said individual had a prescription drug addiction. (They did work as a trainer for telemarketers in the telecom industry.)
 

Jan Kivar

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ddrueding said:
Even locking the A64 to 800Mhz @ 0.9V gives quite acceptible performance for my needs. Any guess on how much power it's taking?
Dunno about that, but I tried to run my HSF without the F. Running 1 GHz@0,85V with the Zalman fan unplugged I managed to do 48°C while running Prime95. I did have a case fan - the Nexus 120mm one.

I'd also like to mention that the temp readout is wonky (showing way too much), so the mentioned value has been corrected by yours truly. It shows roughly 15°C-18°C too much, and I've understood that this is the case with pretty much any A64 board w/ a Newcastle (CG) core CPU. Surprisingly, rebooting (soft boot) the computer sometimes "fixes" the reading. Currently trying out BIOS v1.4, and it's showing reasonable temps for the time being. Haven't done a cold boot yet though...

Cheers,

Jan
 

CityK

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When (Lucky) Goldstar changed to LG (in 95/96?) it was accompanied by a hugemongous, and cleverly done, advertising campaign that really boasted their product image.

Although not an "initial type" change, nonetheless, one of my favourite name changes is Philip Morris becoming Altria.....although they did retain the PM monogram for their tobacky division.
 

Bartender

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Wow! All of these free drinks and we're still in the Computer forum.

By the way, there is also a Taiwanese company called LG (Long Good) that specializes in rice processing machinery.
 

CityK

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So I says to the guy: "I want the best LG burner money can buy". When the guy handed me the brown box he said "Life's good". When I got home and opened the box, I discovered I had a rice cooker. I'm so confused! Aghhhhhhhhhhh!
 

sechs

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ddrueding said:
SBC used to mean "Southwestern Bell Corporation". It no longer does. Anyone care to place a guess?

Southwestern Bell outgrew its geographical name. SBC is now the phone company in parts of Connecticut, Illinois, California, and many other states nowhere near the Southwest.

Other fun anachronistic acronyms are AT&T, 3M, NCR, and IBM.
 

ddrueding

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Jan Kivar said:
ddrueding said:
Even locking the A64 to 800Mhz @ 0.9V gives quite acceptible performance for my needs. Any guess on how much power it's taking?
Dunno about that, but I tried to run my HSF without the F. Running 1 GHz@0,85V with the Zalman fan unplugged I managed to do 48°C while running Prime95. I did have a case fan - the Nexus 120mm one.

I'd also like to mention that the temp readout is wonky (showing way too much), so the mentioned value has been corrected by yours truly. It shows roughly 15°C-18°C too much, and I've understood that this is the case with pretty much any A64 board w/ a Newcastle (CG) core CPU. Surprisingly, rebooting (soft boot) the computer sometimes "fixes" the reading. Currently trying out BIOS v1.4, and it's showing reasonable temps for the time being. Haven't done a cold boot yet though...

Cheers,

Jan

So you are running the MSI K8T Neo FSR with a CG DTR chip as well? My CPU temp is reading as 36C, with your corrections that would place it @ 2C above ambient with a 5v Panaflo...wow.
 

Howell

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sechs said:
ddrueding said:
SBC used to mean "Southwestern Bell Corporation". It no longer does. Anyone care to place a guess?

Southwestern Bell outgrew its geographical name. SBC is now the phone company in parts of Connecticut, Illinois, California, and many other states nowhere near the Southwest.

Other fun anachronistic acronyms are AT&T, 3M, NCR, and IBM.

Some guesses:

Atlantic Telegraph and Telephone
3M - mmm something in german
National Coin and Register
International Buisiness Machines
 
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