MAC vs Windows
- Thread starter Bozo
- Start date
ddrueding
Fixture
Or admits and fixes more flaws...
Must be slow news week/month. When things are slow, a Mac v Windows, Windows v Linux, Intel v AMD, NVIDIA v ATi, Mainframe v PC or some such piece is guaranteed to get page hits. Better yet, keep the arguments the same and just do a global S & R on the protagonists. Bingo! You've got an article for December for the next decade.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I suspect ddrueding has the right of it. The same thing pops on Slashdot a few times a year, and you find out that the guys doing the study were including optional software (Apache, Firefox, whatever) in their metrics while just including what MS said they could include for the Windows part.
sechs
Storage? I am Storage!
My problem with the Macintosh is that there are a lot of form-over-function design decisions. Case in point: The Macbook.
I recently had the opportunity to spend a few weeks with one. First of all, it gets hot -- right on the bottom, where your lap is supposed to be. Had a friend who apparently fried the processor on his work Mac laptop doing nothing special.
Second, where is the f'ing right mouse button? I would have thought by now that, being in that world, they'd've moved to the *nix standard three-button pointer; but, no, they cling to a single button. On iMacs that I've used, there are no apparent mouse buttons, but a left and right "push" on the mouse. Have yet to figure out what can really be done with the right-click.
There are no apparent gestures on the touch pad. Want to double click? You have to hit the single three-inch pointer button twice; no double-tapping. You can simulate a right-click by touching two fingers on the pad and clicking; this really takes two hands. They should have just put two buttons there!
You have to press a button to open the lid, and it's flush with the rest of the case. This means that you have to look to press it. Also, it's very thin, so you have to press with the end of your finger to guarantee that it actuates; along with the lid springing open, this is all a bit awkward when trying to open the laptop to make a quick look-up of something.
They have a slick magnet system which pulls the power adapter into the port. Unfortunately, it's not slick enough to keep it in; only a little bit of force is required for it to drop (not really pull) out. So, someone only needs to brush the side of the laptop to unplug you.
There are is also two different plug adapters for the power supply: a regular cord and a short one that basically allows you to put the power supply right up on the wall. The problem is, I don't know why I'd use the small one. The cable on the regular cord isn't that long; and I was often afraid that I'd lose the small plug. They should have spent time on a better cord management system rather than creating more parts to break or lose.
I recently had the opportunity to spend a few weeks with one. First of all, it gets hot -- right on the bottom, where your lap is supposed to be. Had a friend who apparently fried the processor on his work Mac laptop doing nothing special.
Second, where is the f'ing right mouse button? I would have thought by now that, being in that world, they'd've moved to the *nix standard three-button pointer; but, no, they cling to a single button. On iMacs that I've used, there are no apparent mouse buttons, but a left and right "push" on the mouse. Have yet to figure out what can really be done with the right-click.
There are no apparent gestures on the touch pad. Want to double click? You have to hit the single three-inch pointer button twice; no double-tapping. You can simulate a right-click by touching two fingers on the pad and clicking; this really takes two hands. They should have just put two buttons there!
You have to press a button to open the lid, and it's flush with the rest of the case. This means that you have to look to press it. Also, it's very thin, so you have to press with the end of your finger to guarantee that it actuates; along with the lid springing open, this is all a bit awkward when trying to open the laptop to make a quick look-up of something.
They have a slick magnet system which pulls the power adapter into the port. Unfortunately, it's not slick enough to keep it in; only a little bit of force is required for it to drop (not really pull) out. So, someone only needs to brush the side of the laptop to unplug you.
There are is also two different plug adapters for the power supply: a regular cord and a short one that basically allows you to put the power supply right up on the wall. The problem is, I don't know why I'd use the small one. The cable on the regular cord isn't that long; and I was often afraid that I'd lose the small plug. They should have spent time on a better cord management system rather than creating more parts to break or lose.
ddrueding
Fixture
All excellent points, sechs.
Sechs, I have this argument with Macoids on a regular basis. For a company that spends so much energy extolling the virtues of its hardware and software design, they regularly release products that make me wonder if anyone ever attempted to *USE* the f-ing prototype before it went into production.
Case in point: The way they cling for dear life to that miserable single-button trackpad leads me to suspect deep-seeded emotional issues somewhere up the chain of command. I refuse to believe that any thinking designer could look at the number of fingers on the average human hand and then decide — in the name of ergonomics — that one button provides easier and more flexible input control than two or — heaven forbid — *three* buttons. It's like deciding that typing would be "easier and more intuitive" if letters were paired up on the keyboard. How about 'A' and 'S' sharing a single key?
That's just the mouse button rant. I can go on for days.
On a more philosophical note, I think the reason we (read: I) get so worked up over these idiocies, the reason we (I) get so frustrated, is that the Mac hardware and OS has SO MUCH FRICKIN' POTENTIAL which the designers consistently fail to realize. I keep wanting to see them put out a real winner but they plain refuse to become who they could be. Watching something hold itself back from greatness is painful to watch. Not that I'm in any position to pass judgement. Call it an observation.
That said, I LOVE the magnetic power connector, which, with all due respect, Sechs, I think stays in place just fine. In my humble opinion it's the single most innovative development in laptop hardware in a long, long time. There's also a guitar cable that works on a similar concept. Don't know how it ranks in sound quality compared to other cables but it's a nifty idea.
Case in point: The way they cling for dear life to that miserable single-button trackpad leads me to suspect deep-seeded emotional issues somewhere up the chain of command. I refuse to believe that any thinking designer could look at the number of fingers on the average human hand and then decide — in the name of ergonomics — that one button provides easier and more flexible input control than two or — heaven forbid — *three* buttons. It's like deciding that typing would be "easier and more intuitive" if letters were paired up on the keyboard. How about 'A' and 'S' sharing a single key?
That's just the mouse button rant. I can go on for days.
On a more philosophical note, I think the reason we (read: I) get so worked up over these idiocies, the reason we (I) get so frustrated, is that the Mac hardware and OS has SO MUCH FRICKIN' POTENTIAL which the designers consistently fail to realize. I keep wanting to see them put out a real winner but they plain refuse to become who they could be. Watching something hold itself back from greatness is painful to watch. Not that I'm in any position to pass judgement. Call it an observation.
That said, I LOVE the magnetic power connector, which, with all due respect, Sechs, I think stays in place just fine. In my humble opinion it's the single most innovative development in laptop hardware in a long, long time. There's also a guitar cable that works on a similar concept. Don't know how it ranks in sound quality compared to other cables but it's a nifty idea.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
There's no excuse for a well engineered notebook to get more than pleasantly warm; I've got a Thinkpad T41 apart right now and they CPU is completely passively cooled; it doesn't even have a heat sink sitting on top of it. Guess what? Thinkpad T41s don't get hot unless you're using them under a blanket or something equally ridiculous.
The heat on the bottom was the first thing I noticed last time I handled a Macbook.
The heat on the bottom was the first thing I noticed last time I handled a Macbook.
udaman
Wannabe Storage Freak
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 1,209
Mouse or track pad, which is it you're ranting about, make up your friggin mind, or stop saying such nonsensical things, lol. And you might learn about how Apple does it on more *modern* models rather than religiously pointing out old short comings on years old technology. 1 finger trackpad, 2 fingers, 3 fingers...w00t, get your MacBook Air now, lol
Hah, hah, funny stuff that makes no sense...for those weaned on inferior PC's GUI, and can for the life of them learn something easier. How many key strokes does it take you to get ™ on your PC? Took two for me
First thing you might notice is your non-sequitur Merc, that's an apples and oranges comparison. T41, is 1st gen. Aluminum /iBook G4 era, none of these are in production. Try comparing like CPU's and comparable hardware technology...and you might be taken seriously. Almost as nonsensical as Tannin's arguments about Canon products. You do know, that due to heat, Dell's (and Alienware) are known for fry their hard drives, do you not? Find me a current Apple laptop, or any Intel Apple laptop since they made the switch to those T-series Intel CPU's with a 1.6Ghz CPU in it, at what TDP Merc? (oops well now there is one but I haven't read the press to find out what the TDP is, which series it is, but the MacBook Air is only .76in at it's thickest and almost paper thin at the other end...again find me a similar product that keeps it's cool for the same amount of heat generating hardware & speed, like 2GB of RAM and all the other goodies that generate heat, like those lap burner desktop like GPU's the PC side crams into their thicker laptops). Aftermarket companies that actually know what they are doing, like former Apple clone maker Daystar, have issued upgraded faster CPU's for older Mac laptops like the TiBook and Alum PB, only to seem them lower the clock from initial annoucments, because for even minor overclocking/standard CPU upgrades, the tinniest amount of heat generated, gets you one hot laptop. Ain't easy as you think Merc. The 1st 15.4in Intel MBP, had underclocked ATI installed, as opposed to the MBP 17in, exactly because of the extra heat generated by the GPU, on revised model, same GPU but better heat distribution design meant same GPU clockspeed...still warm though
. Besides did not Merc recommend a cooler stand for a PC lappy to nikipol sometime last year, IIRC? Typical bogus arguments.I love how SF are so far behind the times with their ignorance in Apple products such that they bring up the old faults that most 'Mac zealots' are fully aware of and admit to (except for those illogical PC eccentric GUI 'enhancements' the PC zealots hold on to for death, like the friggin floppy drive...LMFAO). No logical Apple user ever buys a single click Apple mouse, they of course use a two button mouse (yeah, I know, cause the chief developers of Apple's pro software, Final Cut Pro know the single mouse was just a consumer level fad).
Apple has sold 5 million iPhones, despite the nay sayers here on SF, whatev
Stereodude
Not really a
And that makes them not suck how?
Fine. You have two-stroke access to a handful of extended characters. I have Five-stroke access to entire character sets with ALT+####. Incidentally, "™" is ALT+0153, and it takes me a split second to key in.
Perhaps you can explain why an advanced, intuitive GUI like OS X allows me to resize a window only from its bottom right-hand corner. Or why there's no way to maximize a single window to fill the screen.
Look, I've lived in a mixed-OS home for a few years. Outside of that I've been using Macs on and off my whole life. Overall I've clocked plenty of flight time on OS X, devoting many hours to study, learning to navigate the OS as a born-and-bred Mac power user would. I don't fool around. Understand: I've gone through sites like XvsXP with a fine-toothed comb in an effort to gain more perspective on the different functional quirks of each OS. I get excited for Steve Jobs' keynote address. I drool over the new hardware. I want to love the Mac but it just won't let me, because I am the arbiter of good ergonomics, and at the end of the day Mac/OS X just doesn't do it for me. Key words there being "for me".
So go on and get it on with the Mac. I'm sticking to my Windows (for now).
Gilbo
Storage is cool
That would make me blow my brains out.
In Windows it drives me nuts that I can't hold ALT and drag a window, but, instead have to go all the way to the title bar. If you become used to a convenience that saves you time and effort, living without it becomes perpetually annoying. (I don't know if you can do this on the Mac, you can on Linux.)
Gilbo
Storage is cool
But you can't replace the touch pad on a laptop. They all have a single button. It is shitty to use. I don't hate Macs but give me a break; two buttons make your life noticeable better. It's a big deal for good reason.
Ideally, I'd like a joy nipple, but I'd settle for a touch pad with two buttons.
P.S. I don't want to have carry an external mouse with my laptop everywhere.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I have yet to find an Intel-based Apple notebook that doesn't get too hot on the bottom. They all do it. In fact, the only times I see Apple notebooks are when someone brings me one that's either overheating or has already killed itself.
I don't care about the one button trackpad, but in observation, all the Mac notebook users I've seen - pretty much for all time - seem to hook up some kind of premium mouse. Either Logitech or Microsoft or one of those Apple "Mighty Mouse" things... and all of those mice have two button functionality. The default product is basically good enough for nobody, and/or Mac users don't seem to be willing to use the trackpad in general.
I don't care about the one button trackpad, but in observation, all the Mac notebook users I've seen - pretty much for all time - seem to hook up some kind of premium mouse. Either Logitech or Microsoft or one of those Apple "Mighty Mouse" things... and all of those mice have two button functionality. The default product is basically good enough for nobody, and/or Mac users don't seem to be willing to use the trackpad in general.
sechs
Storage? I am Storage!
Would Mac users buy Apple hardware if the MacOS freely ran on other hardware?
I know a number of folks who would pony-up $200 to put the MacOS on their existing PCs.
I know a number of folks who would pony-up $200 to put the MacOS on their existing PCs.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I think there's a decent minority of Apple users who buy the hardware because of Apple's industrial design. There are PC users who see S*ny PCs the same way (I couldn't believe it either). Apple is successful as a hardware company, though, so I don't think we're in any danger of seeing an unbundled OSX any time soon.
In the meantime, as always, there's piracy.
Yarrrr!
In the meantime, as always, there's piracy.
Yarrrr!
ddrueding
Fixture
I have an OSX instance in a VM that I use for tech support. I would likely pay for Mac laptop hardware if they didn't charge so damn much; I don't want the OS!
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Mac laptops really aren't anything special.
ddrueding
Fixture
I know. And I'd have to swap out the touchpad for one with 2 buttons. But if (when?) Dell ships their MacBook Air clone, I might buy one. The size is nice, and the weight is nice, but it really does just look sexy. Industrial design is a good thing.
Tea
Storage? I am Storage!
Hey, Tannin?
Hmm?
When you buy a Mac, who do you buy it from?
Huh? You know I'm not a sanctimonious loonie. Well, not that particular sort anyway, I use real computers. We don't buy Macs, Tea. Never have. You know that. It never does to predict the future too confidently. but I don't suppose we ever will.
Sure, but just supposing. Let's say we wanted to buy a Mac. What brand of Mac would we go for? Who would we get it from?
Apple, of course. That's the only one.
The only one? Like Samsung are the only one to go to if you want hard drives, you mean, or Gigabyte are the only one to go to if you need a must-not-fail motherboard?
No, I mean the ONLY only one.
Huh? What do you do if their service isn't up to scratch? Who do you switch to if Apple's prices are too high? What do you do when you want a Mac but you aren't happy with the performance of the Apple models?
You buy it from Apple anyway. Or else go without.
But that's STUPID! What crazy loonie would put themselves in such an invidious position?
I agree, Tea. Beats me why anyone buys them.
It doesn't make any sense.
Nope. But then you see lots of people buy communications stuff from Telstra, and they are officially the worst ISP in Australia. People are like that.
But WHY?
I have no idea why, little one. Maybe one of the other guys can explain it for you. I just don't know. Sorry.
Hmm?
When you buy a Mac, who do you buy it from?
Huh? You know I'm not a sanctimonious loonie. Well, not that particular sort anyway, I use real computers. We don't buy Macs, Tea. Never have. You know that. It never does to predict the future too confidently. but I don't suppose we ever will.
Sure, but just supposing. Let's say we wanted to buy a Mac. What brand of Mac would we go for? Who would we get it from?
Apple, of course. That's the only one.
The only one? Like Samsung are the only one to go to if you want hard drives, you mean, or Gigabyte are the only one to go to if you need a must-not-fail motherboard?
No, I mean the ONLY only one.
Huh? What do you do if their service isn't up to scratch? Who do you switch to if Apple's prices are too high? What do you do when you want a Mac but you aren't happy with the performance of the Apple models?
You buy it from Apple anyway. Or else go without.
But that's STUPID! What crazy loonie would put themselves in such an invidious position?
I agree, Tea. Beats me why anyone buys them.
It doesn't make any sense.
Nope. But then you see lots of people buy communications stuff from Telstra, and they are officially the worst ISP in Australia. People are like that.
But WHY?
I have no idea why, little one. Maybe one of the other guys can explain it for you. I just don't know. Sorry.
Stereodude
Not really a
The Macbook Pro is ok (not withstanding the fact that it gets so hot you'd swear it was going to combust), but the standard Intel powered Macbook is a complete pile. It feels so cheap and crappy.
It's not as though I'm particularly enthralled by the hardware design or feature set of any PC laptop, either. I mean, 6-pin firewire jack? Hello? Anyone? Plenty of room on that side panel! No love.
I'm the first to admit that Apple's builds some sexy boxes but I'm looking for more than just a pretty face, know what I mean?
I'm the first to admit that Apple's builds some sexy boxes but I'm looking for more than just a pretty face, know what I mean?
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Proper laptops say Thinkpad on them.
ddrueding
Fixture
What do you think of the leaked specs on the X300? Sounds like an Air clone...
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I suspect they've been working on it for a while, so I doubt it's a clone. Lenovo generally doesn't have much of that sexy industrial design, but a lot of executive-types like to look for something distinct and different from what their peons have, and I suspect that's the main market for the X300 and in fact pretty much every ultraportable.
sechs
Storage? I am Storage!
Thinkpads are definitively high-functionality over looks.
Any colour you want... as long as it's black.
Any colour you want... as long as it's black.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
A bittorrent search for 'kalyway' is handy if you'd like to give Leopard a try...
So anyway, if you want a non-black thinkpad (why?), you can take matters in your own hands. Or try these guys who have more classically inspired options.
So anyway, if you want a non-black thinkpad (why?), you can take matters in your own hands. Or try these guys who have more classically inspired options.
Santilli
Hairy Aussie
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2002
- Messages
- 5,285
My solution:
http://www.panasonic.com/business/toughbook/products.asp
I was an Apple fan from the mac Plus days. However, after being burned way too many times on hardware, and, limited expandability.
Not to mention the upgrade of the week stuff, that means you have to upgrade all your software. After so many years of abuse, I see no reason to ever consider another product from them.
Their software that runs on Windows is truly horrid, and I view as slightly above a virus, if that good.
Finally, I hate monopolies, and, Apple's monopoly is more oppressive then MSFTS, since it controls both software and
hardware.
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...71095&catGroupId=31954&surfModel=Toughbook-51
http://www.panasonic.com/business/toughbook/products.asp
I was an Apple fan from the mac Plus days. However, after being burned way too many times on hardware, and, limited expandability.
Not to mention the upgrade of the week stuff, that means you have to upgrade all your software. After so many years of abuse, I see no reason to ever consider another product from them.
Their software that runs on Windows is truly horrid, and I view as slightly above a virus, if that good.
Finally, I hate monopolies, and, Apple's monopoly is more oppressive then MSFTS, since it controls both software and
hardware.
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...71095&catGroupId=31954&surfModel=Toughbook-51
Chewy509
Wotty wot wot.
I used Toughbooks whilst in the Army out field. Great little machines that can survive para-drops quite well... (Well they were padded in our packs, but they can take abuse quite well).
Chewy509
Wotty wot wot.
That was back in the PentiumMMX-P2-era... Sorry cant remember the models. They just left a good impression on being indestructable when given to us to fall out of planes with.
PS. The ones we had looked like the 19, but without the swivel display. And since we used Win3.11 on them we used SSDs as HDDs. (Capacity was IIRC 64MB).