Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I have several times 500GB, but by "and stuff" I really meant pornography. 
Macbook Pro first impressions
- Thread starter Mercutio
- Start date
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Yes but I don't go places or do things and I like naked ladies quite a bit.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Here's a discussion I've had several times over the last few months:
"I really want to get a Mac. Everyone says I should get a Mac. iTunes works better on Macs and there's imovie and everything is easier, right? But I have all these Windows programs and none of them are for Macs and what Mac should I get since I'm just going to ignore what you say about business notebooks anyway?"
This touches on two things: Apple is automatically assumed by people at this point to be the superior option. There's actually a lot of "If they weren't really that much better, they wouldn't cost so much more"-reasoning, or at least that's something I've encountered quite frequently.
The other thing is, my standing recommendation for most people is to look at business-class notebooks. Lenovo Thinkpad, HP Probook (at least they're still cheap!) or Dell Latitude. This is a problem, because people want to go to stores and look at them, and there's no such thing as a retail setting (at least in the Midwestern United States) where any of the above are available for sale.
I'm not a salesman and I don't want to be. But Apple products seem to be to be undeserving of their reputation and moreover seem to be a tremendous waste of money.
"I really want to get a Mac. Everyone says I should get a Mac. iTunes works better on Macs and there's imovie and everything is easier, right? But I have all these Windows programs and none of them are for Macs and what Mac should I get since I'm just going to ignore what you say about business notebooks anyway?"
This touches on two things: Apple is automatically assumed by people at this point to be the superior option. There's actually a lot of "If they weren't really that much better, they wouldn't cost so much more"-reasoning, or at least that's something I've encountered quite frequently.
The other thing is, my standing recommendation for most people is to look at business-class notebooks. Lenovo Thinkpad, HP Probook (at least they're still cheap!) or Dell Latitude. This is a problem, because people want to go to stores and look at them, and there's no such thing as a retail setting (at least in the Midwestern United States) where any of the above are available for sale.
I'm not a salesman and I don't want to be. But Apple products seem to be to be undeserving of their reputation and moreover seem to be a tremendous waste of money.
ddrueding
Fixture
Apple products are a tremendous waste of money. I recommend them all the time. Any one of the following will cause me to recommend a Mac:
1. I want a computer but don't know what computers are for (massive training, no particular needs, no family/friend support)
2. I want a Mac because they are perfect and nothing ever goes wrong with them (Reality Distortion Field that isn't worth breaking)
3. A computer should be an appliance that lets me e-mail/chat with the kids/look at pictures and shouldn't require maintenance (no support money? Go to the Apple store)
4. I'm a computer idiot and all my friends have Macs (some RDF, but mainly just familiarization and a good support network)
1. I want a computer but don't know what computers are for (massive training, no particular needs, no family/friend support)
2. I want a Mac because they are perfect and nothing ever goes wrong with them (Reality Distortion Field that isn't worth breaking)
3. A computer should be an appliance that lets me e-mail/chat with the kids/look at pictures and shouldn't require maintenance (no support money? Go to the Apple store)
4. I'm a computer idiot and all my friends have Macs (some RDF, but mainly just familiarization and a good support network)
I've never understood it either. Last debate I had with an engineer over his 17" Macbook pro purchase was that he said no other laptop has the available resolution of 1920 by 1200 (native) like his mac Book Pro. I didn't bother to do an exhaustive search, but for the most-part he was right on that. The other argument was the simplicity of connecting it to his 27" Apple monitor with thunderbolt versus having a docking station.
Others who I've had this discussion in the past always make the argument against not being able to get viruses on their Mac/Apple equipment. I agree with them that there is less of a likelihood of this occurring, but I returned argument that their lesser understanding of how to protect yourself on your own PC comes at a significantly inflated price that you pay to own the Mac. The other lame reasoning I hear is the aesthetics are better when compared to a Thinkpad. Since that's an opinion, it's pointless to argue except to point out that they're (again) paying extra for form over functionality.
Others who I've had this discussion in the past always make the argument against not being able to get viruses on their Mac/Apple equipment. I agree with them that there is less of a likelihood of this occurring, but I returned argument that their lesser understanding of how to protect yourself on your own PC comes at a significantly inflated price that you pay to own the Mac. The other lame reasoning I hear is the aesthetics are better when compared to a Thinkpad. Since that's an opinion, it's pointless to argue except to point out that they're (again) paying extra for form over functionality.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
As an owner of a 17" Macbook Pro, I am going to say it's a goddamned boat anchor. You might as well give up and call it a desktop. Thunderbolt is only interesting if you'r willing to pay the huge Apple Tax markup on available hardware. People seem to be astonished by Apple's service, but in my experience it's mundane for business-type support.
sechs
Storage? I am Storage!
Apple is for sheeple.
These are the folks who buy the radiation shields for the back of their iPhones.
These are the folks who buy the radiation shields for the back of their iPhones.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Earlier in the week there was an article on Gizmodo or Engadget called "How do I select a laptop?" The only thing anyone from the site did was debate which Macbook Pro to get.
This is really how people think now.
This is really how people think now.
Santilli
Hairy Aussie
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2002
- Messages
- 5,078
Appl is really owned by MSFT now. Part of the sealed agreement is that MSFT must finance Appl to stay out of another conviction and fining by the DOJ.
The real give away was right after the case ended, MSFT stock tanked. Appl was driven down to pennies. Then MSFT money jacked Appl up to it's current absurd levels.
If you look at Appl pricing, you also have to wonder if Intel was involved in the deal.
Another benefit is Appl products justify higher prices then would otherwise be justified by PC components and makers.
If not for Appl, Thinkpads and Toughbooks would be 50% cheaper.
In short, Appl exists to part fools from their money. ;=)
The real give away was right after the case ended, MSFT stock tanked. Appl was driven down to pennies. Then MSFT money jacked Appl up to it's current absurd levels.
If you look at Appl pricing, you also have to wonder if Intel was involved in the deal.
Another benefit is Appl products justify higher prices then would otherwise be justified by PC components and makers.
If not for Appl, Thinkpads and Toughbooks would be 50% cheaper.
In short, Appl exists to part fools from their money. ;=)
Many professional people making good money have better things to do than f*ck around with computers and therefore prefer Macs. You still see a lot of Macs in pro A/V production as well. They have supported dual CPU sockets for many years, including the Xeons nowdays. You need to buy servers or build your own to do that with a PC and they typically are not designed for high end graphics.
I have one now and I have been collecting my thoughts in no particular order.
Apples support is mundane for business-glass support but no home user gets that support. It was smart getting the stores and a tech counter out there.
I totally agree, a 17" machine isn't a laptop. It is a desk system that happens to be moveable on occasion, not special to mac they are all bricks like that.
I now have a 15" MBP of my own and getting it through amazon warehouse deals I was able to bring the price disparity down to only a couple hundred of similar spec pc models. Basically I wanted to see what they were talking about and try something new with osx. I got the 15" because I wanted a discrete graphics card so I can game on it, idea being I can get rid of my tower PC and only have laptops from now on.
Comparing to my tower which is a quad xeon w3530 (similar to 2.8ghz i7), 6gb triple channel memory, a HD6950 video and intel G2 SSD plus a 1tb seagate. The mac is a quad 2.2ghz i7, 8gb of dual channel memory, an either or switchable amd HD6750M / intel HD3000 and intel G2 SSD and a 500gb toshiba. I would prefer a little more in the graphics but it plays the games I wanted fine though it does run the fans high while doing it.
First thing that really annoyed me is that there is flat out no zip program available that will create multi segment zip files for any price. I searched for days. Forums were telling me about split/cat etc like I want to deal with that. We are pretty blessed with 7zip and winrar in the PC world. Closest thing was stuffit that will create mulit segment files but in the small print they mention they are proprietary stix format, I was pretty annoyed but I can't return software.
I rather like the simplicity of mail but I haven't looked under the covers to see how easy it is to service. Sort of a non issue as all of my private email is imap internet based. Seems to be one of those like it or hate it programs.
I have heard horror about the osx file system being self corrupting seems really old, super primitive even compared to ntfs. Siracusa has some comments on it that are most disturbing in his lion review.
For bootcamp the drivers apple supplies for windows suck. They force the use of the discrete graphics card at all times so battery performance is about half of what you can expect from osx or any equivalent PC. They work fine without trouble though.
vmware fusion works well, I have seven versions of windows in it. I like how it can pull in and virtualize the bootcamp partition. But again requires the discrete graphics card be enabled at all times while using vmware. Machines in this move over to vmware player without problem.
Having the internet restore be built into the bios is neat. Stick in a blank hdd and you can partition it and reinstall the OS with just a network connection. I did it when I put in my SSD to check it out, worked well.
As far as the hardware goes I like the case, it is solid and doesn't creak or feel cheap. Still possible to bend and scratch obviously. I took out the optical disk and moved the spinning disk there with a drive adapter. This is apparently the last of the line you will be able to do that with, next MBP are rumored to be without optical disks which frankly is a good decision as they will be much smaller.
Desperately needs USB3. Lightpeak/thunderhole is nice and all but they don't make memory sticks for that, not that you could use them anywhere else anyway.
I positively hate the keyboard. The flat top keys don't give you feedback if you are centered on the key until you run off the edge of them. Most keys have a little cup or dish to them to help you center your fingers and these don't at all. I don't like the frame between the keys either. I dreadfully miss the home, end and delete keys. Mushey key feel is crappy too, I mistype on them all the time and don't have any confidence I could look away and type a paragraph like I can on my unicomp.
I actually like the touchpad and really like the gesture support. The clicking would annoy me if I didn't configure it for all touch but I do have it configured for all tap to click so I never have to click the thing, similar to how I like to setup PC touchpads.
Mission control with the associated gestures is pretty nice but the thing wrong with it is if you close an app and then reopen it the app will show up in a seemingly random position so for the four finger swipe left or right it won't be in the same place. Annoying and inconsistent. Also annoying is if an app isn't developed with the full screen viewing mode than it won't be compatible with mission control and will always be stuck on the desktop screen, many developers aren't on board with this.
Resume from sleep is damn fast, ready before you get the lid open or if it was already open before you can get your hands positioned on the keys to type the password.
App store model for distributing built in software is dumb and doesn't work. The ilife suite (iPhoto, iMovie and garage band) are installed on new computers and are assigned to the first apple ID that signs into the computer. So if you are buying used or had someone set the computer up for you, you now have a lot of calls to apple support to make and a day or three to resolve it. Seems their support isn't configured to resolve this yet, you get bounced around quite a bit. I'm not sure if they would fix it for you out of warranty, the resolution was closely tied to the serial number of the machine.
Preview app is pretty nice for opening about anything and I found you can fill out PDF forms in it even though it is a little clunky. You can also print to PDF in any app it seems. Out of the box PDF support is rather nice.
The training wheels for the whole osx experience are definitely on and as a new user I appreciated it. As reviewers have mentioned you can't tweak much and something like removing windows animations for a faster experience can't be done it seems.
All in all I haven't really found a killer app in osx that matters to me. At the moment I find it unlikely that I will stay with a mac when I upgrade in the next year or two. That has a lot to do with my job and what I have to do to stay current, it that were to change I would possibly stay with a mac but I don't see changing career paths that drastically.
Apples support is mundane for business-glass support but no home user gets that support. It was smart getting the stores and a tech counter out there.
I totally agree, a 17" machine isn't a laptop. It is a desk system that happens to be moveable on occasion, not special to mac they are all bricks like that.
I now have a 15" MBP of my own and getting it through amazon warehouse deals I was able to bring the price disparity down to only a couple hundred of similar spec pc models. Basically I wanted to see what they were talking about and try something new with osx. I got the 15" because I wanted a discrete graphics card so I can game on it, idea being I can get rid of my tower PC and only have laptops from now on.
Comparing to my tower which is a quad xeon w3530 (similar to 2.8ghz i7), 6gb triple channel memory, a HD6950 video and intel G2 SSD plus a 1tb seagate. The mac is a quad 2.2ghz i7, 8gb of dual channel memory, an either or switchable amd HD6750M / intel HD3000 and intel G2 SSD and a 500gb toshiba. I would prefer a little more in the graphics but it plays the games I wanted fine though it does run the fans high while doing it.
First thing that really annoyed me is that there is flat out no zip program available that will create multi segment zip files for any price. I searched for days. Forums were telling me about split/cat etc like I want to deal with that. We are pretty blessed with 7zip and winrar in the PC world. Closest thing was stuffit that will create mulit segment files but in the small print they mention they are proprietary stix format, I was pretty annoyed but I can't return software.
I rather like the simplicity of mail but I haven't looked under the covers to see how easy it is to service. Sort of a non issue as all of my private email is imap internet based. Seems to be one of those like it or hate it programs.
I have heard horror about the osx file system being self corrupting seems really old, super primitive even compared to ntfs. Siracusa has some comments on it that are most disturbing in his lion review.
For bootcamp the drivers apple supplies for windows suck. They force the use of the discrete graphics card at all times so battery performance is about half of what you can expect from osx or any equivalent PC. They work fine without trouble though.
vmware fusion works well, I have seven versions of windows in it. I like how it can pull in and virtualize the bootcamp partition. But again requires the discrete graphics card be enabled at all times while using vmware. Machines in this move over to vmware player without problem.
Having the internet restore be built into the bios is neat. Stick in a blank hdd and you can partition it and reinstall the OS with just a network connection. I did it when I put in my SSD to check it out, worked well.
As far as the hardware goes I like the case, it is solid and doesn't creak or feel cheap. Still possible to bend and scratch obviously. I took out the optical disk and moved the spinning disk there with a drive adapter. This is apparently the last of the line you will be able to do that with, next MBP are rumored to be without optical disks which frankly is a good decision as they will be much smaller.
Desperately needs USB3. Lightpeak/thunderhole is nice and all but they don't make memory sticks for that, not that you could use them anywhere else anyway.
I positively hate the keyboard. The flat top keys don't give you feedback if you are centered on the key until you run off the edge of them. Most keys have a little cup or dish to them to help you center your fingers and these don't at all. I don't like the frame between the keys either. I dreadfully miss the home, end and delete keys. Mushey key feel is crappy too, I mistype on them all the time and don't have any confidence I could look away and type a paragraph like I can on my unicomp.
I actually like the touchpad and really like the gesture support. The clicking would annoy me if I didn't configure it for all touch but I do have it configured for all tap to click so I never have to click the thing, similar to how I like to setup PC touchpads.
Mission control with the associated gestures is pretty nice but the thing wrong with it is if you close an app and then reopen it the app will show up in a seemingly random position so for the four finger swipe left or right it won't be in the same place. Annoying and inconsistent. Also annoying is if an app isn't developed with the full screen viewing mode than it won't be compatible with mission control and will always be stuck on the desktop screen, many developers aren't on board with this.
Resume from sleep is damn fast, ready before you get the lid open or if it was already open before you can get your hands positioned on the keys to type the password.
App store model for distributing built in software is dumb and doesn't work. The ilife suite (iPhoto, iMovie and garage band) are installed on new computers and are assigned to the first apple ID that signs into the computer. So if you are buying used or had someone set the computer up for you, you now have a lot of calls to apple support to make and a day or three to resolve it. Seems their support isn't configured to resolve this yet, you get bounced around quite a bit. I'm not sure if they would fix it for you out of warranty, the resolution was closely tied to the serial number of the machine.
Preview app is pretty nice for opening about anything and I found you can fill out PDF forms in it even though it is a little clunky. You can also print to PDF in any app it seems. Out of the box PDF support is rather nice.
The training wheels for the whole osx experience are definitely on and as a new user I appreciated it. As reviewers have mentioned you can't tweak much and something like removing windows animations for a faster experience can't be done it seems.
All in all I haven't really found a killer app in osx that matters to me. At the moment I find it unlikely that I will stay with a mac when I upgrade in the next year or two. That has a lot to do with my job and what I have to do to stay current, it that were to change I would possibly stay with a mac but I don't see changing career paths that drastically.
Santilli
Hairy Aussie
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2002
- Messages
- 5,078
Reminds me of buying an iphone. You pretty much don't have root access to your own laptop.
Roomie has both. iBook with a slow SSD, about the same speed as my Kingspec.
Seems reasonably snappy. Haven't used it for much but watching video. The small form factor combined with an old SSD makes
the first generation a good one to skip.
Roomie has both. iBook with a slow SSD, about the same speed as my Kingspec.
Seems reasonably snappy. Haven't used it for much but watching video. The small form factor combined with an old SSD makes
the first generation a good one to skip.
sechs
Storage? I am Storage!
You do realize that Macintoshes are now just x86 PCs running the MacOS? You can get a comparable machine that runs Windows for less, probably from Dell or HP. There's no hardware advantage.
A lot of creative types that I know use PCs running Windows because they are cheaper and the software that they use runs better. And it's difficult to customize a Macintosh.
With that logic, it would also remind me of an Android phone. You don't have root access unless you...wait for it...root your phone. Last I remember, there was shell access to OSX. You do have root access if you want to mess about. Maybe that has changed?
You both have root access on any mac plus a supported way to install the largest competing OS on it.
Apple SSD offerings don'e seem to get much love from enthusiasts either and the memory upgrade pricing is outlandish, $200 for 8gb approx while my actual memory was less than $50.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
My Macbook Pro has an actual, honest-to-tits layer of dust on it.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Something I value enough to swear to, unlike invisible sky wizards.
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
Maybe you just have way too many devices. Send some my way if you want to get rid of something that's useless to you.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
This is the dust of not having a single damned use for the notebook.
Another problem, the free version of arconis to use with the intel ssd I have in the machine does not work. Says it didn't detect windows or something, I'm guessing it is failing the check to see if there is an intel ssd in the machine.
Well of course you have piles of equipment.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I got a 27++ 9 cell slice battery to add to my T420. It's a small, flat bar that's about 2" wide and plugs in to the docking bay port on the bottom of a T-series Thinkpad. It weighs around 1lb. I just plugged it in and took my laptop off charge and right now my battery meter indicates that my Thinkpad (which isn't fully charged on either battery) will discharge in 19:30.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Powered on the MBP this morning for the first time in a couple months... and the screen didn't. It's fine on an external display and that's lovely and everything, but the laptop is basically seven months old and has barely been moved or used in most of that time. Now I'm on hold with Apple. Huzzah.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Apparently I'll have a return box tomorrow and they're saying a week to two weeks to get it back. The troubleshooting and RMA process involved speaking to four different people and took about 45 minutes. I'm not terribly impressed.
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
He's not Coug.
Maybe not, but you might be forgetting Merc's incident with S*ny and an optical drive.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Oh but they said if I just drove two hours to the nearest Apple store I'd just have to wait in line for someone to work on it!
I always wanted to set fire to a NeXT machine. But that's cause they had Magnesium chassis.
I always wanted to set fire to a NeXT machine. But that's cause they had Magnesium chassis.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
In my experience, Lenovo sends a DHL van that brings me a box to put the impacted notebook in. The van arrives within a couple hours of the support call unless I tell them to wait on it. The DHL van takes away the notebook. Three to five business days later, the repaired notebook is back.
During the support call, I talk to one person through the whole process. He asks for information from me one time and has access to the complete support history for whatever unit I'm talking about. At his discretion, he can just send me parts and let me do a repair myself. I don't think I've ever spent 20 minutes on a call to IBM/Lenovo for a clearly defective machine.
During the support call, I talk to one person through the whole process. He asks for information from me one time and has access to the complete support history for whatever unit I'm talking about. At his discretion, he can just send me parts and let me do a repair myself. I don't think I've ever spent 20 minutes on a call to IBM/Lenovo for a clearly defective machine.
ddrueding
Fixture
Just send them to work and have your PA handle it.
My understanding is that repair and refurbishing work is contracted to a company called EasyServe, located in TN -- see this thread as an example: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=103340&start=30