Matrox P650 vs. ATI XL 800

[Santilli]

I had to post something on this. I've got both XL700 and XL800 at home, in two different boxes, and, the P650 at work. I'm using the same Sony monitors with each, and, everytime I turn on the box at work, with the Matrox P650 at work, I'm amazed at the difference in clarity, and, the relative easy effect on my eyes.

I just kicked the monitors at home up to 85 mhz, hoping this helps, but it doesn't seem to do much. The computer at work is 2000, and the at home computers are running XP.

Just tried Cleartype, but, it's a bit better, but not great.

The Matrox P650, at a billion colors, on a Sony 19 inch is just unmatched.

GS

 

[time]

It's highly unlikely to be the cards if you're running a normal resolution on a 19" monitor. IMO, your problem is the four-letter word printed on the monitors, one that is infamous for sample variations.

 

[Santilli]

I guess. I've got 4 Sony 19 inch, and two Hitachi 21 inch, and the pattern appears the same...

g

 

[Pradeep]

What rez are you running at? If you are overdriving the monitors, increasing the refresh rate will prob make them look worse.

 

[Santilli]

Running both at 75 mhz, the Sony CPD 400 and Hitachi Elit 802 plus. Tried higher, but it sort of washes out.

GS

 

[Pradeep]

What rez are you running at?

 

[Santilli]

1280 X 1024 on almost all of them. Should check at work, but that's what I use at home.

gs

 

[Tannin]

Never met a 19 inch CRT yet that was truly happy at 1280 x 1024 - and I've tried quite a few. Well, a handful of the very best ones, but you really are pushing your luck trying to run 1280 on 19 inch screens. 1124 should be perfectly doable, however.

If you can't get the screen and card happy at 85Hz, you need to use a lower resolution. 75Hz will never give you a quality, flicker-free picture.

 

[Santilli]

HMMMM. By dumb luck, I think I found out what brings out the colors so well.
I got rid of one of our fish tanks, and I'm using the flourescent light in my room, since it's kind of dark. With that light on, it's a combination blue and white flourescent designed to grow plants, I'm getting the same kind of brillance I do at work.

Still, thanks for the suggestions.

Tannin, what about 21 inch Hitachis?

Thanks

GS

 

[Bozo]

Doesn't the manual that came with the monitors give you a 'native' or sugested resolution/refresh?

Bozo :mrgrn:

 

[Santilli]

Doesn't the manual that came with the monitors give you a 'native' or sugested resolution/refresh?

Bozo :mrgrn:

First, when all else fails, read the manual. :wink:

Second the 19 inch monitors are all used, between 59 and 85 dollars each.

Can't remember what the Hitachi's recommended, since they were bought new, but the one in the other room 7 years ago from Dell, and this one, just prior to that.


What does age do to CRT's, and, again, anyone have anything on old Hitachi monitors?

gs

 

[Tannin]

Hitachis can be excellent, but as with all brands, it depends on the particular model. My (very expensive) old 19 inch Hitachi CM753 is superb at 1124, OK (just OK) at 1280. A 21 inch monitor in the same series, I imagine, would run 1280 beautifully - or certainly ought to. The only CRT I have that I run at 1280 is the big Mitsubishi 22. (Mind you, I expect perfection from monitors. Usually get quite close to it too, but so I bloody should, the amount I spend.)

 

[Tannin]

Bozo, the resolution a monitor can do, and the resolution it can do well are two quite different things. Rule-of-thumb: take about half to 2/3rds of the max resolution in the book. Depends on the model though.

 

[Santilli]

Hitachis can be excellent, but as with all brands, it depends on the particular model. My (very expensive) old 19 inch Hitachi CM753 is superb at 1124, OK (just OK) at 1280. A 21 inch monitor in the same series, I imagine, would run 1280 beautifully - or certainly ought to. The only CRT I have that I run at 1280 is the big Mitsubishi 22. (Mind you, I expect perfection from monitors. Usually get quite close to it too, but so I bloody should, the amount I spend.)

This Hitachi monitor looks pretty good at 85 mhz and 1280, and, the other at 1152 is back to stunning. Also redid the Adobe Gamma Profiles, and that may have helped.

What did you think of the Mitsubishi 22, and, are they dropping in price?

Thanks Tannin and all

Greg

 

[ddrueding]

All my Mitsu 2040u monitors are quite happy at 1600x1200, but I have a pair of the Sony GDM 24" CRTs coming in, and am interested in what they can do.

 

[Santilli]

Every once in awhile, usually doing a photoshop project, I run out of screen real estate, and, these monitors and cards do 1600 X 1200 in that obscene, off the screen type deal, where if you want to see the other parts, you have to
mouse up or down to see that part of the screen. That sucks.

DD, what did you pay for the Mitsus, and how do they compare to Hitachis, Sonys? etc.

gs

 

[Handruin]

Tony, what problems do you find at 1280x1024 on a 19" CRT? I've been running my IIyama VMpro 450 (19") at 1280x1024 @85 for years and I have no complaints. Can you describe what happens? Does the image blur/soften.

 

[Onomatopoeic]

Never met a 19 inch CRT yet that was truly happy at 1280 x 1024 - and I've tried quite a few. Well, a handful of the very best ones, but you really are pushing your luck trying to run 1280 on 19 inch screens. 1124 should be perfectly doable, however.

1280x1024 on a 19-inch monitor is simply going to make you go blind.

It's best to keep screen resolution at around 85 DPI (yes, 85 dots per inch) for a WYSIWYG rendition that equals a laser printer printout. Using this rule, approximate pixel resolutions are:

19-inch ..... 1024x768
21-inch ..... 1152x864
22-inch ..... 1280x1024

On the 22-inch Mitsubishi (NEC/Mitsubishi) DP-2020 / DP-2040 / DP-2060 / DP-2070SB models, I usually stick with 1152x864 for photography work, for text -- 1152x864 or 1280x1024.

This Hitachi monitor looks pretty good at 85 mhz and 1280, and, the other at 1152 is back to stunning...

As a long-time consumer of higher-end monitors, my general consensus is that Hitachi are best for CAD / page layout (text), Sony Trinitron best for photographic, and Mitsubishi Diamondtron good at everything.

...What did you think of the Mitsubishi 22, and, are they dropping in price?

Mitsubishi and NEC merged their display companies a couple of years ago, and now they've been spun-off as a separate company called NEC Display, Inc -- same engineers, same factories, same everything except funding.

As for the price, yes, they've dropped to the high-US$600 price range for a 22-inch DP-2070SB. Unfortunately, NEC Display has just recently stopped production of the 2070SB CRT monitor, and all other CRT monitors as well -- except for their $5000 super-accurate version of the 2070SB called the Diamondtron UWG RDF225WG.

All my Mitsu 2040u monitors are quite happy at 1600x1200, but I have a pair of the Sony GDM 24" CRTs coming in, and am interested in what they can do.

File this tidbit of info away, just in case you come across a good deal on a 2070SB (Mitsubishi or NEC/Mtsubishi -- same exact monitor, just a change in the name that's silkscreened on the front bezel):

The DP-2060U was a improvement over the DP-2040U in internal bandwidth. The DP-2070SB was a major improvement over the DP-2060U in every area, especially in that it can produce some very bright whites with the same black-point setting as a DP-2060U (hence, SB = Super Bright or simply super-wide dynamic range), and the chassis is a slight bit smaller than the 2020/2040/2060 chassis. Overall, a hell of a package. Too bad they are now out of production.

 

[mubs]

It's best to keep screen resolution at around 85 DPI (yes, 85 dots per inch) for a WYSIWYG rendition that equals a laser printer printout. Using this rule, approximate pixel resolutions are:
19-inch ..... 1024x768
21-inch ..... 1152x864
22-inch ..... 1280x1024

I have bad eyes (I'm no Pradeep HawkEye), and I'm quite comfortable with 1024x768 on a 17" which I've been using since 04/1999. When I used to use a 19" at work, 1152x864 was quite fine. Lower res. on these would blow them up too much for me.

As for the price, yes, they've dropped to the high-US$600 price range for a 22-inch DP-2070SB. Unfortunately, NEC Display has just recently stopped production of the 2070SB CRT monitor, and all other CRT monitors as well -- except for their $5000 super-accurate version of the 2070SB called the Diamondtron UWG RDF225WG.

So what is the amateur digital photgrapher to do when he wants to edit? I was hoping to buy one of these in the future. :x

 

[Santilli]

Gary:
What refresh rate do you use?

gs

 

[Fushigi]

Home: Mitsu DiamondPro 930SB 19" CRT @ 1600x1200 @ 85Hz driven by an ATI AIW 9600 Pro. I was doing 2048x1536 @ 76 Hz but still noticed a little flicker.

Work: Dell 21" Trinitron CRT @ 1600x1200 @ 85Hz driven by my laptop's GeForce FX Go5650.

Personally, I really can't stand less than 1280x1024 any more. 1600x1200 is acceptable but nothing to get excited about. My addiction to resolution is why I haven't moved to LCD monitors at home, but I am keeping an eye on the Dell 2405.

 

[mubs]

HawkEye #2.

 

[timwhit]

I run 1600x1200 on my 21" CRT at work. I need as much screen realestate as I can get.

 

[Fushigi]

HawkEye #2.

I'm nearing 40 years old & my eyes still test at 20/20.

 

[time]

Home: Mitsu DiamondPro 930SB 19" CRT @ 1600x1200 @ 85Hz driven by an ATI AIW 9600 Pro. I was doing 2048x1536 @ 76 Hz but still noticed a little flicker.

A 19" CRT monitor has a viewable picture width of just over 360mm. Your monitor has a 0.24mm stripe pitch. Therefore, the absolute maximum number of pixels that can actually be displayed across the screen is 1500. In practise, the picture will start to degrade as you rely on less than 3 stripes for every 2 pixels. At 1280 pixels, you are relying on just 7 stripes for every 6 pixels ...

 

[Onomatopoeic]

Gary:
What refresh rate do you use?

Typically, 75 Hz or 85 Hz.

I'm nearing 40 years old & my eyes still test at 20/20.

I'm at least near 20/20 these days. Some days my vision is a little worse than others. Fortunately, I still have excellent night vision. I was somewhat recently reading a newspaper (albeit, a bit slower than normal) using only normal moonlight. My tested vision was 20/15 in both eyes about 20 years ago.

Home: Mitsu DiamondPro 930SB 19" CRT @ 1600x1200 @ 85Hz driven by an ATI AIW 9600 Pro. I was doing 2048x1536 @ 76 Hz but still noticed a little flicker.

The persistence of the phosphors is the largest factor that determines how low you can set the frame refresh rate. Fluorescent room lighting -- in some cases -- will cause "beat frequencies" with monitors set at low refresh rates as some people have sensitive enough vision to detect those interference patterns with the roo lights on.

By the way Fushigi, running at those resolutions on a 19-inch monitor *will* do your eyes in faster than they need to be -- you've been warned. :bigeek:

 

[Stereodude]

Come to the dark side and get a LCD.

Then you can use DVI and know you are getting an exact 1:1 pixel map.

 

[Santilli]

Come to the dark side and get a LCD.

Then you can use DVI and know you are getting an exact 1:1 pixel map.

I'm too close to silicon valley, and I've picked up perfect sony and Dell monitors, 19", for between, 59 and 85 dollars, from my local Paramount Technology.

I watch the LCD prices, and, one day, I'm there.

Splash's advice has made my eyes MUCH more relaxed., and for that I am thankful...

g

 

[Pradeep]

Mmmm, 1:1 can't be beat.

At work we don't have any CRTs on the desks (exceptions being some really nasty ones in the server room). Dell 1704FPs mostly, at 1280*1024@17". Couple of 20" UXGAs, and of course the 2405 in my office

Even tho the vast majority of our work is digital imaging, the benefits of LCD outway the negs for us.

 

[Dïscfärm]

...Dell 1704FPs mostly, at 1280*1024@17". Couple of 20" UXGAs, and of course the 2405 in my office...

Pradeep, it's time to update your buy list:

• http://www.necdisplay.com/products/ProductDetail.cfm?Product=416

 

[Pradeep]

Looks nice, but at the price I would be getting two 2405s. Also, I already have a Gretag color puck doodad, which works fine for calibrating multiple machines to a single standard.

That LED based monitor looks quite interesting tho.

 

[Dïscfärm]

Looks nice, but at the price I would be getting two 2405s...

I'm sure you could get a half dozen of some other LCD monitor as well. However, not a single one will be able to display the colour gamut this one will. THAT is the reason why it needs to be on your buy-list.

By the way, the "street price" is less than what NEC Displays (formerly NEC-Mitsubishi) shows on their website.

 

[Dïscfärm]

For a hefty price, you can get one of the new advanced LED-backlit LCD NEC monitors.

This is the cutting edge for LCD displays:

• 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  http://www.necdisplay.com/products/ProductDetail.cfm?Product=425
  

 

[Santilli]

Just wanted to say thanks to Gary again. My eyes feel MUCH MUCH BETTER,
using the suggested resolutions, after long sessions.




GS

:jumpin: :aok: :salut: