Need new mobo: Suggestions?

[Piyono]

Last week I packed up a bunch of stuff and high-tailed it to Israel for the better part of the coming year.
Included in my baggage were the components comprising my desktop computer, individually packaged for reassembly upon arrival. I arrived, I reassembled, I pushed the power button and behold... nothing happened. Crap.

(Yes, I made sure to switch my PSU to 230V operation!)

My power supply tester shows that all rails are alive but the distinct burning smell coming from the upper right area of my motherboard (the caps near the SATA ports get hot) tells me something might be off.

This totally sucks for me.

For one thing, this motherboard is hard to find in North America, never mind Israel. Furthermore, unless I find something using the same chipset, a new motherboard probably means a new CPU and RAM and video card (I'm still living on Planet AGP). Big outlay. Not looking forward.

I've been out of the chipset loop for a while. Given my current dire financial situation I need some serious bang for the buck. My motherboard was all but perfect for my needs. Can anyone recommend a product from the current crop that comes close to it in specs?

Tired, frustrated, anxious.

 

[ddrueding]

Can you give the rest of your specs? What GPU did you have? What apps do you use? If you could get by with onboard video, a new solution might not be that expensive.

 

[ddrueding]

Another thing to do would be to check some local shops (if there are any), to see if they have some older back stock.

 

[Piyono]

Yeah... I have a Radeon 7500. Real hardcore, I know.
Creative Suite 2, CorelDRAW, Nuendo 3 and Half-Life 2 are my heavy-lifter apps.
Would current onboard video solutions give me the juice to run HL2 with playable frame rates? Also, HD video decoding would be a nice upgrade; the 7500 didn't have a hardware decoder and 720i and up was unwatchable on my system.

My biggest fear is starting with a clean slate on an untested motherboard. I know my computer inside and out; quirks and all. The thought of having to build up from scratch again is staggering (although if it comes down to that I'll take a deep breath and decide to be thankful for the opportunity).

I pulled the board today and gave it a visual once-over. Found a few iffy caps. One in particular, near the AGP release latch, is leaking out the top. A couple of others are bloated. The heat I felt around the SATA connectors was coming not from the neighbouring capacitor (which is mildly bloated), but from one of the three adjacent MOSFETs.

Whether these caps are at fault I know not. Hard to say for sure because my computer was working quite normally the day I unplugged it in Toronto, so it stands to reason that the caps were in this state when I slipped the board into the antistat bag. The board might just have sustained mechanical damage at the hands of airport baggage apes. Part of me wants to recap the board but then there's a little voice inside telling me to cut my losses and keep moving.

Anyway, I'll call some local computer shops. If nothing else it'll give me a chance to brush up on my Hebrew...

 

[Mercutio]

Actual recommendations:

GIGABYTE GA-P35C-DS3R - For $150, it doesn't do anything all that special, other than be a rock-solid motherboard for an Intel Processor.

Intel 946GZis - $80. Barebones, trouble free and, once again, rock solid. No overclocking features. Only two DIMM slots, but decent onboard graphics.

GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM-S2H - $80, uATX board for AM2. Supports DVI, component video and HDMI video connections with ATI-based onboard video, and it has a firewire port. For $80. Totally worth the extra $10 over nVidia 6100-based boards.

 

[Bozo]

What was your original motherboard?

Bozo :joker:

 

[ddrueding]

What was your original motherboard?

...my motherboard ...

 

[Piyono]

Actual recommendations:

Thanks, Merc, I'll czech those out.



I've been doing some late-night research:

From what I understand, the best bet for a mainstream Intel chipset solution today is the P35, which supports CoreDuo Quad on LGA775 if I decide I want to upgrade. If I opt for integrated graphics I'd be turning to a G33 or a 945G board.

My processor of choice is probably going to be the Pentium E2160 or the Core Duo E4500, depending on which is cheaper. These both seem to overclock really well and represent the best bang for the buck. When I start earning some cash here I'll trade up to a faster model. In any case, either of these will likely be much faster than the Athlon XP 2400+ I'd been using until now.

Does all this sound reasonable?

 

[Piyono]

The current crop of Intel motherboards looks good, except for the fact that Intel seems to have categorically dismissed PS/2 as a connector option.

I like my legacy keyboard!

 

[Will Rickards]

I actually was looking for a motherboard without PS/2 connectors or parallel or serial ports. But I ended up with ps/2 ports. And searching newegg for a G33 based board I see a few with ps/2 connectors.

 

[Mercutio]

At the moment, I'd say the tide has shifted back to AMD: The motherboards are cheaper and have more nifty features, the CPUs are cheaper and more importantly they are faster at available price points than Intel's.

For $160, one can buy an AMD x2/6000 or an E6550. If you aren't planning to overclock, the AMD chip is literally neck and neck with the Intel, and it will sit on a much less expensive motherboard that probably has more DIMM slots, onboard graphics with DVI and/or HDMI, digital audio outputs and maybe even some extra SATA ports.

That goes out the window if you're going to overclock, of course, but once you start down that road, you need to look at more expensive RAM and presumably a nicer motherboard (GA-P35C-DS3 = $150) anyway.

It makes me weep that new motherboards only have one IDE port, though. Anyone who is looking at actually upgrading an existing system right now probably still has IDE parts for hard disk and optical.

Not that it does Piyono any good, but the $50 DDR2/667 2GB Crucial modules on Newegg.com are giving me a big happy right now as well.

 

[Piyono]

Newegg is great, but they don't ship to Toronto and they certainly don't ship to Israel. Prices here are, on average, 15% higher for computer stuff (pro audio gear has, like, a 100% duty. Cars, too).

I use Newegg strictly for product images (an area in which they excel) and user reviews. It's also a good price barometer, but only in the U.S.

 

[timwhit]

Do you have a friend in the US or Canada that would be willing to ship you the parts you need? I don't know how much shipping would be, or what customs are like in Israel though.

Also, have you considered trying to get the same motherboard used from eBay?

 

[Piyono]

Do you have a friend in the US or Canada that would be willing to ship you the parts you need? I don't know how much shipping would be, or what customs are like in Israel though.

Also, have you considered trying to get the same motherboard used from eBay?

Yeah, so the accepted device we Israeli residents employ is the buddy shipping method. If your parcel is small enough and durable enough, get a friend to toss it into his/her checked luggage. "Formal" shipping is subject to import duties. I've heard of mailed packages being opened for inspection. If the item inside qualifies the policy here seems to be "tax first, ask questions later".

Local is the way to go.

I'm looking at that Intel board again.
Pros: Intel makes good, stable boards.
Cons: No frills; Poor overclocking options; no PS/2 connectors; lots of blank space on the I/O panel that could have been used for more USB or firewire ports.
Thoughts: I can get a PS/2 to USB adapter, but the lack of overclocking options are a bit of a turn-off seeing as how I'm going for a low-end processor.

Then again, the Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L is looking really good, too. The only real bummer with that board is the lack of Firewire, and while I have a PCI firewire card on hand, I also have a modem and a Delta1010 audio interface, which means I'd be out of PCI slots. Sort of a shame to sacrifice a slot for something which should really be built into the board.

Here a rough projection:

Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E4500 (2.2GHz 65W Allendale 2MB L2) $127
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L - Intel P35 ATX $90
HSF: Thermalright Ultima-90 $60
Memory: Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2-800 PC2-6400 $90
Video Card: Any GeForce 7600GT $90
TOTAL: $457

That's more than I was hoping to spend on computer upgrades this week but such is life.

I'll sleep on it.

 

[timwhit]

Why not hold off on the upgraded HSF? The stock coolers that come with Core 2 Duos are pretty good and those chips run cool, so you will still be able to OC it, just not as much.

 

[ddrueding]

I'll second Tim on the stock cooler. They are much better than they used to be, even for overclocking.

 

[Bozo]

The stock cooler is fine. My C2D 2.33GHz is running fine at 3.15GHz with the stock cooler. It runs F@H almost 24/7 too.

That is on a Gigabyte GA-P35C-DS3R motherboard.

Bozo :joker:

 

[Piyono]

Yeah, I'll stick with the stock cooler for now.
I may have found a temporary computer for free; a friend of mine's got an AMD machine underneath his in-laws' house. It's 40 minutes each way by car, longer by bus. Time to start looking for a lift.

It's been a while since I've had to move an XP installation from one machine to another. How will XP react to seeing a new motherboard and new components? Will the driver stack be re-written or will there be conflicts?

I'll Google for a solution, too.

 

[ddrueding]

What is the motherboard chipset and SATA chipset? You might get a BSOD right out the gate. A repair install is probably the safest way.

 

[Mercutio]

Actually, If you're going nVidia to Intel or Intel to nVidia, or Sis to Intel or Intel to SiS, you'll probably be able to at least boot your system without a BSOD.

Oddly enough, I've had more problems going nVidia to nVidia or anything to or from Via, than anything else.

 

[timwhit]

I went from Via to Intel recently on 2003 Server without a hitch.

 

[Piyono]

I believe the SATA chipset is a SIL model.
I was planning to do a repair installation on a clone of my existing system drive. I'm going to keep the original drive in case I get a replacement motherboard. Crazier things have happened.

I found a Hebrew enthusiast site: www.hwzone.co.il. I posted there in English (and a little Hebrew) asking for some help finding a suitable replacement. They have a section on the site called "TradeZone" for buying and selling gear. I posted a request there, too.

I got hooked up with a local tech who was kind enough to offer to sell me parts at his cost.

No 'puter yet but hey, so far so good.

פיונו

 

[ddrueding]

My Hebrew is very rusty, especially without any vowels.

 

[Piyono]

My Hebrew is very rusty, especially without any vowels.

Tell me about it! It's a daily struggle for me.

Piyono

 

[Piyono]

New System Up and Walking

Ok, so here's what I ended up with:

Mobo: Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L
CPU: C2D E2140
RAM: Crucial Ballistix PC2 6400 CL4 2GB Kit (Buddy-couriered from Toronto)
Video: Asus EN7300GT Silent (cheap and it runs WoW and HL2 with reasonable FPS and visual settings)
HD: WD 2500AAKS
Display: LG L226WTQ
PSU: Existing Enermax PSU.

Total cost (excluding PSU): ~3800NIS (wholesale!). Damn near 20% more than it would have cost in North America, retail. Anything that's a *thing* is cheapest in America. Thank you economies of scale.


Anyway, my idea was to retire my my aging WD800 from system drive duties and enlist the new WD2500AAKS to serve in its stead. For shits and giggles I cloned the system partition from the WD800 onto the WD2500, installed the latter as drive 0 and performed a repair installation of XP onto it. The installation hiccuped when the installer decided it would no longer locate necessary files on the install disc. I tried a different CD but to no avail. I cancelled and restarted expecting nothing to work but lo and behold XP booted up and I was greeted with the familiar sight of my long-absent desktop. After using other peoples' computers for the last two months this was such a relief I almost hugged my monitor. I installed the motherboard drivers and started to poke around.

Long story short, the OS is stable so far but many applications had to be reinstalled because it seems that a number of registry entries didn't survive the transition. I guess that's what happens when you fall asleep for two months and reawaken in a new body.

I'm considering trying the partition swap again just to see if I get better results. However, I'm open to other ideas on how to get my old system running on this new hardware.

 

[Fushigi]

Microsoft's user migration. I haven't used it but it may be worth a try.

If you're having to reinstall apps you may as well go with a totally clean XP install. All of that repair stuff will leave turds, for lack of a better word, laying around your system.

When I migrate I always do a clean install and copy the entire old hard drive to an "Old Drive" directory on the new machine. Then I manually reinstate what I want & delete what I don't want as time goes by. Not the simplest way to migrate and some things certainly wind up having to be manually recreated but it does result in the cleanest new PC I can get.

 

[Piyono]

Microsoft's user migration. I haven't used it but it may be worth a try.

I'll look into it, thanks.

When I migrate I always do a clean install and copy the entire old hard drive to an "Old Drive" directory on the new machine. Then I manually reinstate what I want & delete what I don't want as time goes by. Not the simplest way to migrate and some things certainly wind up having to be manually recreated but it does result in the cleanest new PC I can get.

Oh, totally. That's exactly what I usually do, too, but I thought I'd try this out just for a change. Well, for a change and for the fact that I invest lots of time setting things up the way I like them and the thought of starting from scratch is a mild irritant. Still, it's nice to start fresh every now and again. Maybe I'll just take the damn plunge and get it over with.

 

[Mercutio]

Microsoft's user migration. I haven't used it but it may be worth a try.

USMT is a command line version of the File and Settings Transfer Wizard that's handily located in Programs > Accessories > System Tool.

I am regularly shocked at the number of techies who have never used (or in some cases, heard of) either FSTW or USMT.

 

[Piyono]

Heard of, never used.
From what I understand after a quick scan of the TechNet article USMT has to be initialized from the working source system, which I lack. All I have is the system drive. Also, I didn't read far enough into the article, but I can't imagine that USMT or FSTW copy whole applications over, do they?

 

[Piyono]

Ugh.
This system's got the dreaded mouse-and-hard-drive-activity-static-in-the-soundcard-output disease.

I've never been successful in eliminating this from a system. Stupid electrical interference.

 

[Mercutio]

Also, I didn't read far enough into the article, but I can't imagine that USMT or FSTW copy whole applications over, do they?

That would be a no.

 

[Handruin]

Ugh.
This system's got the dreaded mouse-and-hard-drive-activity-static-in-the-soundcard-output disease.

I've never been successful in eliminating this from a system. Stupid electrical interference.

I've seen this in systems I've built and never researched what causes it (other than the simplistic understanding of EMI having some influence). I'm guessing lower quality components might contribute to this disease?

 

[ddrueding]

...and where the traces go on the motherboard. The only fix I know is to use a separate soundcard.

 

[Handruin]

The trace locations would be subject to some type of EMI/RFI, correct? That's what would cause this (I'm guessing)?

 

[ddrueding]

The trace locations would be subject to some type of EMI/RFI, correct? That's what would cause this (I'm guessing)?

Yup. Typically on a motherboard all the soundcard bits are in the same geographical area, usually right next to the headers. I've even seen some with a ground trace around the outside of that section. But some also stick the NIC there, and other bits tend to get close. I'm not sure which parts are the EMI offenders, but I would suspect the VRMs?

 

[Piyono]

I've had cases where add-on sound cards, regardless of quality would not solve the problem.
I don't have another consumer sound card to try at the moment, but I noticed that the noise is significantly worse through the front outputs. This could be due to the front outputs being wired as non-buffered AC'97 (the Realtek chip is HDA) or could be the shitty unsheilded wiring passing over all sorts of components on its way from the back of the mobo to the front of the case. I have a good mind to wire up my own front panel cable using 100% foil-shielded audio grade cable, of which I have a few meters left over.

In the meantime I'm plugging into the back panel and the noise is tolerable.

It's interesting to note that the noise level is constant, and unaffected by the state of the XP volume sliders or mutes. I should listen to see if there's noise when the computer is booting, too.

On a side note, Newegg lists (at last count) 423 reviews on this board among which nobody's complained about this. You'd think, if this was a common problem with the board, that someone would mention it. So who knows... it could be a problem with poor grounding or dirty mains power or even a cold solder joint adding capacitance to a circuit somewhere. I won't know if this particular board is defective unless I RMA it for a new one. Not likely. My more serious listening is done through a Delta 1010, with which I've never had any sound quality issues (although it's been in for repair 3 times, each time on M-Audio's tab).

 

[timwhit]

Have you tried using an S/PDIF optical output connected to a receiver?

 

[Piyono]

Have you tried using an S/PDIF optical output connected to a receiver?

I would if I had a reciever/preamp/DA converter with optical inputs.

It's an interesting point you bring up, actually: if the noise is somehow — be it due to EMI / poor shielding / dirty power / grounding issues / etc — added to the audio signal post-DA conversion then converting the signal externally — especially via TOSLINK — would likely eliminate the problem. This is precisely why the large majority of sound cards in the semi/pro audio market do the DA outside the computer chassis. If, on the other hand, the noise is being introduced on the data level then an external converter would probably not help. Not that I know what I'm talking about; data-stream noise converted to analog noise? Is this is even possible?

 

[timwhit]

I would if I had a reciever/preamp/DA converter with optical inputs.

It's an interesting point you bring up, actually: if the noise is somehow — be it due to EMI / poor shielding / dirty power / grounding issues / etc — added to the audio signal post-DA conversion then converting the signal externally — especially via TOSLINK — would likely eliminate the problem. This is precisely why the large majority of sound cards in the semi/pro audio market do the DA outside the computer chassis. If, on the other hand, the noise is being introduced on the data level then an external converter would probably not help. Not that I know what I'm talking about; data-stream noise converted to analog noise? Is this is even possible?

I have been using S/PDIF for at least the last 5 years. I have never had a problem with noise in this configuration across three separate motherboards.

 

[Piyono]

I have been using S/PDIF for at least the last 5 years. I have never had a problem with noise in this configuration across three separate motherboards.

Hey, ship me S/PDIF-ready preamp and I'll let you know what happens.



p.s. I'll need some speakers, too.