NEWS: "USB Flash Drives Are Failing"

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
I doubt that fragmentation is causing overheating. However, fragmentation will create isolated locations that get an extraordinary number of read-write cycles compared to normal and that may be what is causing the flash to fail on lower-end units. Just my guess on the situation.
 

sechs

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 1, 2003
Messages
4,709
Location
Left Coast
It seems to me that defragmenting can only lead to reduced life.

What we need are smarter controllers that better maintain the cells so that they don't go beyond their useable lives.
 

GIANT

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
Apr 8, 2002
Messages
234
Location
Highway To Hell


Well, I can't believe file fragmentation does a damned thing to reduced the life of flash memory, much less slow a flash drive down even one iota.





 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,728
Location
Horsens, Denmark
File fragmentation = more accesses to get a file, correct?

If access time is zero (or near zero), that wouldn't slow down the copy, correct?

Flash memory is burned out by using certain portions of it excessively, correct?

How would file fragmentation cause certain potions to be used more than others?
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,926
Location
USA
Since there is no moving head like in a conventional hard drive, I vote that fragmentation causes no more wear to the flash memory than a sustained read/write.

If the FS on the flash drive is broken into clusters like a typical HD, then who cares what order they are arranged in when a large file is accessed since there is no physical drive head to move?

Sustained unfragmented read of 1MB file example (file contents in red)
=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|

Fragmented read of the same 1MB file example (file contents in red)
=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|

Sure, different areas get used if this is a heavily accessed file...but what difference does it make if you constantly use 5 in a row, or 5 scattered across? If it matters, then it implies a degradation penalty for file seeking...which I didn't think there was any except for a little bit of delay.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,926
Location
USA
I would say that de-fragmentation would cause excessive wear. It would be better to copy the file contents off to another location and then format the flash memory and then recopy the files back on.

One additional thought to my example above would be in a case where a larger file is written to the flash memory and it has to consume an extra cluster due to slack space...but again, this would happen even if it was a sustained write. The next question becomes...is it better to format with larger clusters to reduce the amount of smaller read/writes and take a hit on optimizing the space efficiency?
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
each address/cell in Flash RAM has a limited number of write cycles before it fails. It is not an explicit number but rather, a probability that failure will occure on each write. Statisticly, it may be 100,000 cycles on average, but inactually it could be the first, or it could be the millionth. There is a real difference in quality flash ram and poor quality and it is not how fast it operates (well, that is a signifigent difference, but not what we are talking about here), but rather how many write cycles statisticly, on average, it can take before failure.

Fragmentation is an indication of individual cells that get far more write-cycles than an average location. Writing files is not a uniform process, that all locations share equally. Some files, will stay put and those cells involved will get very few writes. Other addresses, near the end of the address space, will stay empty virtually all of the time and will also get very few write cycles. Then there are the locations where files are constantly being created, and deleted: These are the locations that are prone most to fragmentation. These locations because of ther high frequency of write cycles are the ones that will also be prone to early failure. I would argue, that the only location with a similar chance of failure would be the FAT table because the pointers to the sequential locations of a file changes just as frequently as the files themselves are created/deleted.

Note, what I'm not saying: Defragging the drive will not help the situation: It will make it worse because it just adds to the number of write cycles.

Cluster size will matter because a larger cluster will have more writes when written to. When you write a 64k cluster for a 1k file, then an 63k extra addresses (as compared to a 1K cluster size) are written with zero's and each one of those writes has a statistical chance of failure every time it is written to.
 

Tannin

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
4,448
Location
Huon Valley, Tasmania
Website
www.redhill.net.au
Low-end flash memory fails ... well ... I don't want to get too technical here, but primarily because it is .. er ... low-end flash memory. Ever buy some really cheap blank CDs? Like that.
 

Computer Generated Baby

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
Dec 16, 2003
Messages
221
Location
Virtualworld

Had been kinda sorta recently in the market for a (single) 1 GB USB thumb drive, but not in a rush to get one immediately.

I've had my eyes on one of those fancy SanDisk Cruzer thumb drives with the retractable USB connector.

However, I saw a deal tonight -- a weekly special at a CompUSA store -- that I could not refuse. This was a package of 3-each PNY brand 1 GB USB2 flash drives for US$59. One thumb drive is white, the second one is silver, and the third one is black.






 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,728
Location
Horsens, Denmark
That would be the same price as these?

Except these are smaller, don't have to be purchased at CompUSA, and have way more geek factor.

I have a bunch of these, and love them.
 

.Nut

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Messages
229
Location
.MARS
Tea said:
OK. I get it. So the while one is for ones, and the black one is for zeros ..... what's the red one for?

It could be that the white thumb drive uses 1 GB of NAND flash, the black thumb drive uses 1 GB of NOR flash, and the silver thumb drive uses 1 GB of Macromedia flash.




ddrueding said:
That would be the same price as these?

Except these are smaller, don't have to be purchased at CompUSA...

Those are slightly shorter in length and slightly larger in girth than mine. But, I didn't have to deal with mail order, just the 8.25% sales tax.



 

MaxBurn

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Messages
3,245
Location
SC
I thought all the brand name stuff came with a lifetime warranty but apparently not. PNY=1 year and sandisk=2 years.

Just picked up a 2 gig PNY for $50 minus a $10 rebate if I ever get that, not bad for $40.
 

.Nut

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Messages
229
Location
.MARS
MaxBurn said:
I thought all the brand name stuff came with a lifetime warranty but apparently not...

If there are any thumb drive manufacturers that offer a lifetime warranty, it's almost certainly a highly limited warranty.


PS: Damn, Maxxy! You can spell warranty! You're one of the few around here that can. :wink:



 

MaxBurn

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Messages
3,245
Location
SC
PS: Damn, Maxxy! You can spell warranty! You're one of the few around here that can. :wink:

My spelling is horrible. I rely heavily on the text box spell checker in the Google toolbar, grammar now is a different story.


It's Adobe Flash now....
Neat story on that, I was doing a job in one of their buildings and someone came around handing out T-shirts with the Macromedia logos on them that they now had to dump due to the merger. I got a choice of size and I replied that I don't work here I am just a contractor, and they replied that I get a choice or I get large. So, been there got the T-shirt
 

LunarMist

I can't believe I'm a Fixture
Joined
Feb 1, 2003
Messages
17,497
Location
USA
Whether Macromedia or Adobe, Flash is an abomination. It is an offense to the senses and forces the download to IE to try and install itself.
 

sechs

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 1, 2003
Messages
4,709
Location
Left Coast
It's not so much an abomination as it is an extremely poorly used tool. It should be limited to short animation sketches and web games, and never used as the primary interface to a site.

I started using an optimised build of Firefox which comes with the Flash plugin by default, so no dealing with the half-assed installer.
 

LunarMist

I can't believe I'm a Fixture
Joined
Feb 1, 2003
Messages
17,497
Location
USA
My gripe is that Flash forces itself to download for 2-3 minutes and then asks to install. During the download time the internet is useless. The message asking for permission to install should appear beforehand. This should be illegal IMO.
 

sechs

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 1, 2003
Messages
4,709
Location
Left Coast
Your problem, it seems, is IE, not the Flash plugin. On Firefox, I *can* install the flash plugin from a dialog in the background while continuing to surf.
 
Top