NOAA trying to mute research on global warming.

jtr1962

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If it's any solace there is a growing environmental movement on the right, so the days of environmentally irresponsible Republicans might be numbered. I consider myself a right-wing conservative in most things but I'm also an avid environmentalist and a big supporter of public transportation. I really don't find any conflict between those positions.
 

Sol

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Unfortunately, as far as I can see, much of the environmental movement consists of groups of ill-informed student (Or people who never got over being students) zealots. There are a multitude of environmental problems which will need to be seriously addressed over the next decade or so but it seems like it's down to sheer dumb luck as to whether those are the issues that the environmentalist movement at large are getting rilled up about.

A large amount of resources are being put into recycling around the world for example, but in most cases recycling isn't even all that environmentally friendly. It sounds good to say that we're recycling all our paper, but if it takes more energy and more chemical processing to turn paper into paper than it does to turn trees into paper then it's no great victory. Even the paper industry is smart enough to plant more trees...

Then there are the environmental extremist... The guys putting the mental into environmental... They're out there shooting at whaling boats... Is there really any evidence that whales are even at that great a risk any more? I mean sure it kinda sucks for the whales but as long as the numbers can be kept down they should be fairly safe. Meanwhile don't these extremists have bigger fish to fry, if you'll excuse the pun...

Of course none of this excuses Bush and his corporate sponsored administration... As far as I'm concerned he's what the US' second amendment was meant to stop... So much for that theory though...
 

jtr1962

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Sol said:
There are a multitude of environmental problems which will need to be seriously addressed over the next decade or so but it seems like it's down to sheer dumb luck as to whether those are the issues that the environmentalist movement at large are getting rilled up about.
Exactly. It's really annoyed me that environmentalists have fixated on global warming as the reason to stop burning fossil fuels. Honestly, I consider the pollution problem much more important. When 600,000 people die annually in the US alone from pollution-induced cancers, plus millions more have asthma, that in and of itself is a crisis. After that you have the geopolitical reasons to end the use of Middle Eastern oil so we can disengage from that region completely. And there's an economic angle as well. Since oil prices fluctuate, this plays havoc with the economy. Let's not forget how bad auto exhaust smells, or how filthy it makes things. We need energy sources which don't pollute, are renewable, and are stable (or decreasing) in price. Those are already enough reasons to get off oil without even mentioning global warming. If the environmentalists had chosen that angle we might have had a sound environmental policy by now. After all, people will get very militant hearing that car exhaust gives their loved ones cancer. They mostly don't care about theories that the Earth may be warming up.
 

P5-133XL

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Lets not bicker about the specific problem. Does it really matter if it is global warming; pollution; destruction of the eco-system... The end result is the same, how you get there is irrelevant. Besides, those are simply symptoms of the real problem -- The world has too many people combined with the tragedy of the commons!

As far as I can tell, the best/only current solution to the worlds environmental problems is to release a bio-weapon that kills off about 90+% of the worlds human population and if necessary (The human population starts becoming a problem again) repeat process. We need to kill-off enough people that our impact on the commons (The earth) is negligable. At that point, assuming we aren't too late, nature will recover.

Hey, what does it matter, we as a human race are trying to destroy the worlds habitability anyway. Our default way, of denial or to wait and hope that technology will eventually solve our problems for us, just takes a lot longer and leaves the earth with much less ability to recover (Less bio-diversity). As long as we are in denial or waiting for some random event to occur then we are not taking responsibility for our actions so we can't do anything substantial to change those actions for a better result.

I am absolutely positive that the Bush administration would feel good about censoring me and my thoughts on the issue. Matter of fact, I can't think of an administration (any where in the world) that wouldn't. It just isn't politically correct.

Now what is the big problem with the Bush administration censoring its workers? They aren't any different than others that want to promote their ideas and suppress the contrary. Can you think of a company that would take kindly to its employees bad mothing the companies products or policies? The anology is no different here.

It is not the governments role to protect their citizens rights but rather it is the peoples responsibility. In the USA, we choose those that represent us. If we choose poorly, then we get what we deserve. We choose Bush. We choose our Senators, and Representatives. We choose our Governors, State representatives; We choose our city officials. By our choices, we get the ethics, values, opinions, policies, laws, ... Everything that our government is and represents directly and indirectly are caused by us, the citizens.

You don't like it, then make better choices. Get involved in the process. Express yourself to others and convince them that that your views are correct and so that they vote the way you do. Be happy, at least here we have choosen to allow most everyone to partisipate.
 

Sol

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P5-133XL said:
Does it really matter if it is global warming; pollution; destruction of the eco-system... The end result is the same, how you get there is irrelevant.

But that's just admiting defeat. Sure, all roads lead to ruin if we don't do anything about it. But assuming that we actually manage to convince our world leaders to do something (or replace them with leaders who will) it matters a great deal that we're convincing them to do the right things.

Environmentalists who are targeting less relevant issues and green parties who have insuficient policies regarding non environmental issues to actually form a functional government are just not helping the cause of the environment at all.

To be honest I think a major reduction in greenhouse gas emissions is a slightly more realistic proposition than taking out 4 or 5 billion people... Besides who's to say that such a large scale release of a biological weapon wouldn't have more of a detrimental effect on the environment than another couple of centuries of human habitation...

A better (Well not much better) solution would be to let the various religious fundamentalists (And people who drive SUVs etc.) have at each other... Set aside a portion of the middle east, europe or maybe a big chunk of Russia and just have a free for all... Add a reality TV tie in where viewers can be "voted in" (It's the new draft...) and you can eliminate a huge chunk of the least useful people in society... Plus an urban gun battle between a group of Christian fundamentalists and a bunch of guys who drive hummers, for thier weekly food and ammo budget would have to beat out big brother for prime time viewing...
 

Gilbo

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Sol said:
A large amount of resources are being put into recycling around the world for example, but in most cases recycling isn't even all that environmentally friendly. It sounds good to say that we're recycling all our paper, but if it takes more energy and more chemical processing to turn paper into paper than it does to turn trees into paper then it's no great victory. Even the paper industry is smart enough to plant more trees...
Recycling is more of a job creation issue than anything else.

OTOH, the character, good or bad, of the people who are most vocal in raising an argument has no relevance to its validity. There are few things more obvious in all of creation than the utter destruction humanity has wreaked on its home.

P.S. And yes, whales are still fucked --excuse my french...
 

Sol

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Gilbo said:
Recycling is more of a job creation issue than anything else.

But that's sort of my point. Recycling is one of those things that gets billed as a great environmental victory. Environmentalist groups put plenty of time and effort in to encourage people to recycle and overall the environmental affect is probably a negative one. It's a way to employ people with virtually no economic advantage and minimal environmental impact... They may as well be doing some sort of work for the dole scheme. (Obviously this isn't true in 100% of cases. In some, rare, cases recycling is both environmentally and economically viable)

My main point is, however, that sure we've done a pretty serious number on the earth. But some of the most vocal people on the issue are advocating measures which will not be particularly helpful and that's annoying, because as well meaning as they may be they are not doing anyone any good.

And I'll have to take your word that whales are truely screwed since I really havn't reaserched it but I still don't think that acts of piracy are likely to be a big help to their cause...
 

CougTek

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P5-133XL said:
As far as I can tell, the best/only current solution to the worlds environmental problems is to release a bio-weapon that kills off about 90+% of the worlds human population and if necessary...
Trigger Yellowstone and La Palma island. Be sure not to be in Oregon or on the U.S. East coast when you do it. Have fun watching CNN afterward.
 

Tannin

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I agree about acts of piracy, Sol. Indeed, I think it would be a very good thing to stamp the piracy out, using whatever resources seem to be the most effective. This is why I suggested using the navy to stop the pirates that are killing endangered creatures that do not belong to them (they are, if they belong to any country, Australian whales) and which they are clearly forbidden to kill by the long-standing internationally agreed rules that they themselves participated in the creation of.

Japanese whaling is, purely and simply, piracy, and if it needs our navy or the US Navy to sink a few whaling factory ships to drive the point home that we will not tolerate Japanese contempt for the rule of law, then so be it.

Let us extend to the Japanese rather more regard for life than they extend to the creatures they do not own but slaughter nonetheless - i.e., we sink the bastards as gently as possible. We try to do it without loss of life, and provide ample warning of our policy so that they have every opportunity tocomply with the rule of law , but if they insist on acting as pirates, then we should treat them as pirates. Fire a shot across the bows first, and if they refuse to surrender to justice, sink the bastards.
 

Sol

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As far as I can tell the Australian government has been extremely lax about actually telling the Japanese, in no uncirtain terms, to piss off. I think that's the first step, after that I'll grant the shot over the bow followed by shot not quite so over the bow does seem justified. The whole vigilante thing just doesn't seem advisable to me though.
 

mubs

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P5-133XL said:
As far as I can tell, the best/only current solution to the worlds environmental problems is to release a bio-weapon that kills off about 90+% of the worlds human population and if necessary (The human population starts becoming a problem again) repeat process.
When I was a kid growing up (many decades ago) my father would say the same thing; that the world was over populated, and nuclear weapons should be dropped an a few big cities of the world. Credit to him, the first city he would mention was the one we were living in!

I recently viewed these pics, and it freaked me out: Mexico City from the air - scroll down. I'll bet other big cities around the world are no different: Calcutta, Delhi, Bombay, Rio, etc. It brings home the point in a rather staggering way that humans are screwing this planet. In the not too distant future, we're going to copulate ourselves out of existence.

I too read that news item about the surplus of whale meat in Japan, and it sickened me. They're not allowed to kill for the meat, so they kill for "research purposes, and the meat is just the byproduct of the research". Apparently the meat doesn't sell because it is very pungent, and after WW-II, the Japanese have become used to beef/chicken etc.
 

jtr1962

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I too never understood the blind urge to procreate. When you think about it, it's really senseless. We can all have children, and then you'll have twice the number of people all living like crap, or most can not procreate, and everyone can live much better. I heard thanks to Mexico's overpopulation problem they need to double their infrastructure every 20 years just to maintain the same level of poverty. It's dangerous and futile. If the Third World could get their population problems under control then maybe this planet has a chance. If not, then it's hopeless. Of course, not helping matters is that a good portion of the world follows religions which all basically say be fruitful and multiply.
 

ddrueding

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mubs said:
I recently viewed these pics, and it freaked me out: Mexico City from the air - scroll down. I'll bet other big cities around the world are no different: Calcutta, Delhi, Bombay, Rio, etc.

Here's a shot of Shanghai in the afternoon I took last year:
shanghai.jpg


This is in the afternoon! Notice how dark it is? And the buildings in the distance are less than a mile away, visibility is horrible.
 

Mercutio

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Movement for Voluntary Human Extinction.
What a great idea, pretty much exactly what you guys are all talking about.

Of course, half of the folk in this thread've already had kids...

Also, in yet another Bush-related disaster, didja all see that Dick Cheney, not satisfied with killing brown people by remote control, has moved directly to hunting humans - well, republicans, anyway - for sport? I think the next step will be devouring live Jewish babies, but that's pure speculation on my part.
 

LiamC

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The worship of Huitzilopochtli and Moloch? Are you sure "civilisation" is "progressing"?
 
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