question PC may have died-need some feedback on MB/CPU/RAM

[Chewy509]

Anandtech review places the A10 closer to an i3...

 

[jtr1962]

Newegg was selling the Intel 330 series 180 GB for $110 but they're out of stock now. The Samsung 830 128GB looks like it might be a good fit. Maybe wait for the 840s to come out and hope for a price drop (not that the current $90 price is bad)?

Regarding the A10 Trinity, as Chewy said it actually benchmarks closer to an i3 for the CPU but the GPU kills anything from Intel by a large margin. Even my XP3200 is mostly fast enough for desktop work so Trinity will be fine, even overkill, in that department. I want as much graphics grunt as I can get in an integrated GPU because I feel that will most likely be where my future needs will be. I already can't run some of the latest train simulators on my current system. I don't want to be similarly GPU limited in the future.

I plan to use my old Promise Ultra133 card for my two optical drives and my current 200GB IDE boot drive. Naturally, the latter will be moot once the boot drive is SSD. After that, once the optical drives die I'll have no more need for IDE ports. For those reasons it's not super important that the M/B have IDE ports. In fact, given what Merc said about how they're implemented, I'm better off just using my Promise card. If I want to use my old IDE drives down the road for backup purposes, I could just get an external USB enclosure.

I suppose I could get a PCI parallel port card if I can't successfully run my microcontroller programmer off a USB parallel port emulator.

Regarding setting up an XP VM based on my current XP install, I'm assuming it would involve the following steps:

1) Fresh install of Windows 7/8 on the SSD.

2) Use converter and player to convert my current XP install to a VM (and I'm assuming move all the relevant OS and program files over to the Windows 7/8 boot partition on my SSD in the process).

3) Manually move whatever data I might need which wasn't moved in step 2 over to the SSD.

4) Gradually migrate all my XP programs over to the Windows 7/8 install so I need to use the XP VM less and less.

The idea is to keep all the files for the XP install on the SSD so I won't even need to have my former IDE boot drive running.

 

[Mercutio]

A Promise controller may not properly support optical drives. I seem to recall problems with them and I know I made it my practice to avoid putting an optical drive on one. As I recall, I specifically had problems with bad burns on CD-Rs that were solved by moves to native controllers.

USB Parallel ports actually work maybe a third of the time. Serial ports are even worse; the things that tend to expect that sort of hardware often seem to have hard-coded hardware addresses or somesuch that the USB devices don't support or properly emulate.

In support of the AMD platform, it must be said that absolutely any modern CPU is ridiculously powerful for normal office-type use. AMD really DOES have better integrated graphics and at some price points, it's still quite quite a competitive option, especially when adding the cost of a discrete GPU. That being said, why are you against the idea of a discrete card?

 

[jtr1962]

I vaguely remember running optical drives off a promise controller and not having any issues. I suppose I could see if it works in my present machine.

Yeah, reading the reviews on Newegg those USB parallel ports seem to be hit or miss. That's why I think I might have more luck with parallel port cards. This one sounds promising. One of the comments mentions a choice of setting LPT1 instead of the default LPT2. Many of the USB parallel ports just offer "USB printing services" rather than a genuine bidirectional parallel port address.

I'm against the idea of a discrete graphics card because I'm honestly not gaining anything in terms of functionality, and adding extra cost plus a potential point of failure. There's no way I would get a card with a fan because of the noise. When you look at fanless cards, there's pretty much nothing much more powerful than the GPU AMD has in their APUs. I honestly feel that outside of very specialized users who need tons of GPU power, discrete graphics cards are on their way out. Also, the upgrade path is easier. Should AMD release a much more powerful APU down the road, I could upgrade the CPU and GPU simultaneously, also saving the bother of shopping around for a separate graphics card in the process.

 

[Mercutio]

AMD has a habit of supporting legacy sockets - AM3 CPUs in some cases will work in AM2 boards with a BIOS flash and willingness to accept slower hypertransport links, but it's disingenuous to suggest that a discrete card has no added value over and above onboard video. Most motherboards that have the outputs only support one or two simultaneous outputs, even when they have more output ports, and there's something to be said for local DDR5 above and beyond stealing some main system memory for video as well.

But how often would you really upgrade your CPU without upgrading your motherboard at the same time? Unless you're buying hardware on a subscription plan in the way that DD or I do, about the time you're ready to look at an upgrade of one component, it's going to result in a whole new system anyway. If changes in graphics hardware become urgently important, it strikes me that it might be better to have that component isolated so it can be swapped out more easily.

 

[jtr1962]

But how often would you really upgrade your CPU without upgrading your motherboard at the same time? Unless you're buying hardware on a subscription plan in the way that DD or I do, about the time you're ready to look at an upgrade of one component, it's going to result in a whole new system anyway. If changes in graphics hardware become urgently important, it strikes me that it might be better to have that component isolated so it can be swapped out more easily.

That's just it-chances are good in this case that I might never need to upgrade either the GPU or CPU before it was time to upgrade the M/B. I'm not so sure that would be the case if went with Intel here and/or a discrete graphics card. I don't deny discrete graphics cards may offer some advantages in terms of memory speed, or multiple outputs, but neither of those are particularly important to me. I don't have room on my desk for more than one monitor anyway, and I've never gotten into any apps which need really heavy GPU power. Even the aforementioned newer train simulators which can't run on my A7N8X would run passably well on an average system from 3 years ago. The AMD integrated graphics probably just future proof me here for whatever may come out in the next 5 or 6 or 7 years. By then I'll probably be looking at another system upgrade anyway, probably one using memristor technology. Memristors promise to completely blur a lot of the distinction between memory/storage/CPU/GPU as they can both store data and manipulate it.

Getting back to APU versus discrete graphics cards, drivers are always an issue with discrete cards. What works well in one M/B and CPU combo may not play nice in another. I'm figuring with the CPU and GPU on the same chip there should be far fewer potential for driver issues as the CPU/GPU interface is exactly the same all the time. The downside of course is that you pay for that integration in terms of GPU power, but at this point AMD's GPU is massive overkill for me anyway. Even Intel's would probably work for now, but maybe not in a year or two.

 

[Mercutio]

Ask Handruin how he feels about ATI video drivers.
Somehow I doubt that the low-level interface is the source of potential bugs.

 

[ddrueding]

What works well in one M/B and CPU combo may not play nice in another. I'm figuring with the CPU and GPU on the same chip there should be far fewer potential for driver issues as the CPU/GPU interface is exactly the same all the time.

I would argue that this hasn't been true for many years, at least with normal installations. Sure, try gaming on multiple monitors or SLI-ing several GPUs and you could find problems. And even the power consumption argument isn't as strong now that GPUs can power down and allow lower-powered onboard stuff to take over during 2D operations.

What resolution are you currently gaming at? If it is less than 1920x1080 (what most new monitors are), then you should plan to need (want) some more horsepower when your monitor quits.

 

[jtr1962]

What resolution are you currently gaming at? If it is less than 1920x1080 (what most new monitors are), then you should plan to need (want) some more horsepower when your monitor quits.

1280x1024. I don't have a widescreen monitor. Incidentally, my A7N8X plays MS Train Simulator and BVE passably well, so any upgrade should have my present and future needs in that department covered, even for a larger monitor.

On another note, will newer systems like the one I'm interested in work with the ultra-high resolution monitors (i.e. 3840x2180) which will probably start to appear once enough 4K TVs appear? That's really when I would want to upgrade my monitor.

 

[Handruin]

On another note, will newer systems like the one I'm interested in work with the ultra-high resolution monitors (i.e. 3840x2180) which will probably start to appear once enough 4K TVs appear? That's really when I would want to upgrade my monitor.

I've done zero research on the AMD-side of integrated graphics, but on the Intel Ivy-bridge side, yes. Getting it cabled and a display capable of this resolution will be a bigger issue.

"Multi Format Codec (MFX) Engine (part of the Intel Quick-Sync Video architecture) supports up to 4096×4096 processing including playback of multiple 4K streams and low-latency processing for video conferencing."

http://ultrabooknews.com/2012/05/17/ivy-bridge-and-hd-4000-media-capabilities-overview/

 

[ddrueding]

Short answer is no. Video memory and bandwidth are important on that kind of thing. Even the 4GB on my $1k+ GTX 690 is stressed @ 2560x1600. It will probably run, but why would you plan to not have the resolution and eye-candy turned up to the max? Simulations are the most rewarding (IMO) when the framerate is smooth and you can see all the detail in all the vehicles you've purchased.

 

[ddrueding]

Handruin is correct that it is physically possible, but I can't see it being a rewarding experience.

 

[Handruin]

Handruin is correct that it is physically possible, but I can't see it being a rewarding experience.

I was only approaching it from a 4K video playback perspective. Not from a 3D graphics perspective. I didn't even consider the HD4000 to be able to render 4K 3D graphics at any kind of usable frame-rate.

 

[Mercutio]

I don't think you're going to see affordable 4k monitors any time in the near future. I think we'll see exotic 27"+ 4k screens soonish (probably Dell, Apple and HP offerings) and they'll be stratospherically expensive. 2560xwhatever screens are still well out of the mainstream even though they've been around for ages at this point and I suspect that trend will continue for at least the next five years.

 

[jtr1962]

Short answer is no. Video memory and bandwidth are important on that kind of thing. Even the 4GB on my $1k+ GTX 690 is stressed @ 2560x1600. It will probably run, but why would you plan to not have the resolution and eye-candy turned up to the max? Simulations are the most rewarding (IMO) when the framerate is smooth and you can see all the detail in all the vehicles you've purchased.

I agree about smooth frame rates. The rare times I can hit 60 fps things seems much more fluid. And yes, I tend to turn up all the detail to the max.

The good news here is should the high resolution monitors become affordable in the next few years, I can always add a discrete graphics card if my system isn't up to it with the integrated graphics. For now though I'm guessing the new system will play my existing train sims at full detail and 60 fps easily on my present monitor.

 

[ddrueding]

I suspect you are correct, 1280x1024 should be child's play to any newish machine.

 

[sdbardwick]

ArsTechnica (via TechReport, but I like Ars better so I give them the page views) has a review of the A10 and A8 up.

 

[Mercutio]

If you're too lazy to click the link: they peter out at around the lower end of Intel's mainstream lineup and they're still to hot to use in a lot of applications but the "free" mid-range GPU isn't anything to sneeze at.

Does anyone get the feeling that AMD's target use case at this point is a $350 desktop sold at big box retailer to people who are trying to upgrade for the new WoW expansion?

 

[ddrueding]

Hasn't that been their only market for years now?

 

[jtr1962]

I'd love to see a comparison of the A10-5800K and A10-5700(K?). The 5700 isn't yet available at Newegg. If it's not severely handicapped compared to the 5800K, I would probably go with it, especially if the idle power scales with TDP. The 5800K already does very well in that department. It would be nice to have a system which draws <20 watts at idle. My present system draws about 90 watts idling and 110 watts at 100%. Being that I have it on 24/7 the new system could bring significant savings, perhaps as much as 500 kW-hrs annually.

 

[Mercutio]

OK, it's time to do this thing: jtr needs new stuff. We need to get him running. He has a vastly different knowledge set than the rest of us and he's been helping us for years. If anyone wants to kick in even $10 or $20, I know you all have my paypal address. Let's see if we can at least get him an SSD or motherboard/CPU

 

[Mercutio]

Update: SSDreuding has the obvious base covered, Handy, Will Rickards and myself are contributing cash toward a CPU. Hopefully we can get another couple contributors and hook the man up with a motherboard to go with the RAM he already has.

 

[Mercutio]

The members who have contributed thusfar have been very generous. The money in my paypal account right now will more than cover a CPU. We're working toward the motherboard now.
I'll post a screenshot of my paypal balance and provide an accounting of monies spent. If there winds up being extra cash, I'll buy a money order and forward that to jtr as well.

 

[Mercutio]

Update (not including money that was sent via postal mail or my contribution):

 

[jtr1962]

Thank you all for doing this, and thank you Merc for organizing everything. It's really appreciated. Based on that total, it looks like the MB and CPU are covered, and Dave already took care of the SSD. I'll be buying the remaining bits and pieces on Newegg today-basically the power supply and the parallel port card. It'll be nice to finally put my A7N8X into retirement.

Of course, let me know if I can do anything to reciprocate, like maybe a few LED projects.

 

[Mercutio]

I'll throw a PCI parallel port card in with what I ship you.

 

[jtr1962]

I'll throw a PCI parallel port card in with what I ship you.

Thanks!

I think I'll go with this power supply. Not fanless, but based on the numbers the fan will probably hardly be turning.

 

[Mercutio]

OK. I have dd's stuff here now, so I'm going to try to get physical items shipped out in the next couple days.

 

[Handruin]

Thanks for organizing this.

 

[Clocker]

Thanks for organizing this.

INDEED.

 

[Mercutio]

An AMD A10-5800k and Asus F2A85-V PRO are presently on their way to NYC courtesy of the collective contributions of Storageforum's members. Another box with a few other trinkets will be shipped separately.

 

[jtr1962]

Thanks Merc! And a big thanks to the membership! I'll let you know when the package arrives. I already have the power supply. I also have four of these on the way. They seem like a better idea than using a PATA card, assuming of course that they work as described.

 

[Handruin]

Thanks Merc! And a big thanks to the membership! I'll let you know when the package arrives. I already have the power supply. I also have four of these on the way. They seem like a better idea than using a PATA card, assuming of course that they work as described.

Good luck and enjoy JTR. I hope it runs awesomesauce compared to your current system.

 

[Mercutio]

OK, the last of the parts went out today. If anybody wants or needs to see accounts of how money was spent, let me know and I'll provide them. jtr should be a happy guy come Monday.

 

[jtr1962]

Thanks again everyone! I'll be looking for the package on Monday.

I'll post pictures and also give my impressions once I've set up the system.

 

[Stereodude]

I'm not sure how I feel having contributed to an AMD build.

 

[Handruin]

I felt a little dirty also.

 

[jtr1962]

The motherboard and CPU arrived yesterday. Everything seems to work OK, including the RAM I bought last year. I'll install everything in my case once the remainder of the parts arrive. Incidentally, those PATA to SATA converters I ordered work well. No problems plugging one of my PATA optical drives into a SATA port. The only caveat is I needed to set the jumper to master.

The stock CPU cooler looks a little small for the task but it seems to work OK. If the temps get too high when everything is in the case I'll buy one of these next time they have a sale.

 

[jtr1962]

I'm not sure how I feel having contributed to an AMD build.

For what it's worth if Intel had a better integrated GPU I may well have went in that direction. That said, this looks like it'll be a great system which should serve my needs for quite some time. Once the hardware is fully set up, the fun will begin installing Windows 7, and then making a VM out of my current XP install.

 

[jtr1962]

A nice goody box arrived today containing a PCI parallel port card and a brand new Intel 330 240GB SSD (thanks Dave )! I'll start playing around with this stuff tomorrow because I've been feeling a bit under the weather last few days (although all the nice stuff certainly brightened things up). I arrived at stable settings a few days back, and memtest is now running 45 hours straight with no errors. I'll post some pics of everything as I go along.

Thanks all! This nice gift made my year, if not my decade.