Real innovation

time

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How about a thread dedicated to the Leonardo da Vincis of this world, the geniuses that ignored 'conventional wisdom' and just got on with it?

Here's my first contribution: the 3D fast bus.

This turns no fewer than two conventions inside out: railway tracks need to be separate from roads or at least elevated, and electric trains/buses/trams need continuous wires for power.

Perhaps I'm being defeatist, but I suspect that if someone came up with this in the US, UK or Australia, they would be just be laughed at.
 

ddrueding

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It would be laughed at not because it isn't a good idea, but because it is far from a perfect one. That will be the cause of some nasty accidents. It will most likely be worth it, but that doesn't fly in countries that elect their leaders and watch every accident on the news.
 

Pradeep

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That thing looks like it's going to kill a lot of bike/motorbike riders and pedestrians. Roads in Asia are rarely so pristine with such conforming traffic.
 

flagreen

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Looks like a brilliant idea to me. Particularly if you can ship frieght that way and get those G.D. eighteen wheelers off the road.
 

ddrueding

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Looks like a brilliant idea to me. Particularly if you can ship frieght that way and get those G.D. eighteen wheelers off the road.

That is a neat idea. For that purpose, it wouldn't need to move quickly, or have as many stations, or have as many routes through the city.
 

BingBangBop

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Just imagining it on the interstate. Where do the Semi's go in that they are taller than 2m? What happens if when an inattentive driver hits the side of the bus or there is an accident a little ahead of it and a vehicular ends up on one of its tracks.

I wonder if it is really that much better than simply light rail.
 

time

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That thing looks like it's going to kill a lot of bike/motorbike riders and pedestrians.

How, exactly? If you're on a bike and change lanes in traffic anywhere else, you're definitely going to get hit. But under the same circumstances here, there will only be one of these every couple of minutes (or much more infrequently), and normal speed is just 60kph (35mph).

Similarly, if a pedestrian jaywalks through traffic, they have a not-insignificant risk of becoming a statistic. The straddling buses are kinda large and hard to overlook, so why is the risk any worse than it is already?

If anything, the risk will be less because of the greatly reduced frontal area at ground level. It's not enough to get in front of one of these buses, you have to be right on one of the 6-meter-apart tracks at exactly the wrong moment to get hit.
 

ddrueding

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In China, particularly in Shenzhen, the space between the lanes is where the bikes and motorcycles are. Pedestrians cross the road all over the place, simply finding gaps in the slow (<25mph) traffic. The reason this works is because every vehicle, bike, and pedestrian constantly varies their speed and path to find holes and gaps; compromising their path constantly.

This is a completely foreign concept Americans, and I can assume most other former or current colonies, and took me hours of watching to believe it would work consistently.

Take a look here. This guy isn't being an ass, this is just how it's done.
 

Stereodude

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Oh sure, lets make a vehicle with a really high center of gravity to transport people in! Brilliant! :bstd:
 

Pradeep

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How, exactly? If you're on a bike and change lanes in traffic anywhere else, you're definitely going to get hit. But under the same circumstances here, there will only be one of these every couple of minutes (or much more infrequently), and normal speed is just 60kph (35mph).

Similarly, if a pedestrian jaywalks through traffic, they have a not-insignificant risk of becoming a statistic. The straddling buses are kinda large and hard to overlook, so why is the risk any worse than it is already?

If anything, the risk will be less because of the greatly reduced frontal area at ground level. It's not enough to get in front of one of these buses, you have to be right on one of the 6-meter-apart tracks at exactly the wrong moment to get hit.

In my experience asian roads are crammed with buses. Depending on peak demands some passengers are on the roof or there's three hanging one armed out of the open door. Bullock carts, petrol powered carts etc. If you don't practice a delicate mix of aggresive/defensive driving decent progress is difficult. The idea seems like a good one on paper, it doesn't seem feasible without very strict traffic controls. You are basically talking about a moving road tunnel, I think some bloke in Sydney recently tried to drive his excavator through a tunnel that wasn't tall enough.
 

LunarMist

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What happens in an accident or if the straddling vehicle has a breakdown? I forsee massive traffic jams. :pirate: I surely would not want to drive through a moving tunnel. :batman:
 

Bozo

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What happens if some moron runs a red light and hits that thing broad side. Will it collapse down on the car? Tip over?
 

time

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Stereodude said:
Oh sure, lets make a vehicle with a really high center of gravity to transport people in! Brilliant!
You mean like an SUV? :p
Seriously, go and look at a double-deck train, or for that matter a double-decker bus, or maybe even a 747? It's not an F1 car, the center of gravity could be near the roof (clearly, it isn't - where do you think the running gear is?) and it would still be usable.

Bozo said:
What happens if some moron runs a red light and hits that thing broad side. Will it collapse down on the car? Tip over?
It looks to be at least 30 meters long, so I can't see it collapsing if a car takes out a couple of meters. To tip it, you'd obviously need something big like a truck, and the offside wheels would have to stick in their tracks rather than deforming or jumping out - my guess is that isn't likely.

LiamC said:
The advantages over an elevated monorail are?
Too numerous to list? There are quite a few reasons why monorails haven't replaced regular tracks.
Just taking a couple of monorail disadvantages from Wikpedia: Road-rail intersections are an obvious problem (where do you put the posts?), track switching is an absolute bitch, and an emergency becomes a huge headache trying to get people down.

LunarMist said:
What happens in an accident or if the straddling vehicle has a breakdown? I forsee massive traffic jams.
The beauty of the system is that a broken-down vehicle doesn't usually obstruct anything other than its siblings.
I surely would not want to drive through a moving tunnel.
Ever been flanked by interstate articulated trucks with huge wheels? I'd rather have the relatively benign walls of the bus, thanks.

Ddrueding and Pradeep's concerns are more thoughtful, particularly the lack of reserved space for bikes.
 

flagreen

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I have to take issue with calling this concept "green" considering it's reliance on municipal electricity. We'll all be driving hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in the future.
 

Pradeep

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Having travelled on the Bangkok elevated monorail aka Bangkok Transit System or SkyTrain, I can state that:

1. It is sublime to travel at speed above gridlock traffic.
2. There are large intersections dealt with.

Unfortunately that comes to the negatives:

3. Physical network is tiny compared to existing road network

Most importantly:

4. The price of a monorail ticket is several times the cost of a bus fare. No problems for a tourist, not so good for average wage earner.
 

Pradeep

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I have to take issue with calling this concept "green" considering it's reliance on municipal electricity. We'll all be driving hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in the future.

Presumably the electricity could be produced by nuclear sources, so green apart from some waste. If it's coal powered, prob not so good.

There is no question that hydrogen is a great method of fuelling vehicles in lieu of diminishing supplies of petrol or full electric. Hydrogen allows one to "fill up" much quicker than a plug in electric vehicle.

It will take some time for the refuelling infrastructure to catch up tho.
 

flagreen

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It will take some time for the refuelling infrastructure to catch up tho.

Yeah that's what's holding them back now. Of course hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe so once the gas stations are converted - problem solved - but that could take a long time!
 

Santilli

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That idea is perfect for places like Osaka, where in peak rush, or even on Sundays, going over 30 rarely happens.
What about LA? They already have dedicated, some toll, car pool lanes. Why not put something like that over the car pool lane?

GS
 

jtr1962

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I have to take issue with calling this concept "green" considering it's reliance on municipal electricity. We'll all be driving hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in the future.
Here on earth hydrogen isn't a naturally-occurring fuel. It's a very volatile element which instantly combines with other elements. It's simply an energy storage medium which uses about 3 times the energy to produce it as is returned when using it in a fuel cell ( and I'm not counting the energy used to transport it or store it, either ). Moreover, the issues with fuel cells aren't anywhere close to being solved despite 50 years of R&D. We still haven't figured out how to keep them working in low temperatures, for example, or how to make them without exotic, expensive materials. In short, hydrogen is an expensive, inefficient battery. The idea of using explosive hydrogen in motor vehicles makes zero sense when storage batteries are on a steep improvement curve. Right now batteries can give a range of up to 300 miles and recharge times as short as 5 minutes with a suitable charger. Moreover, the fuel distribution network ( i.e. the electric grid ) already exists. Given this, exactly what are the advantages of hydrogen fuel cells? You'll need an expensive new infrastructure. Hydrogen is expected at best to be equivalent to $5 per gallon gasoline in terms of cost ( compared to 1/10th that or less for pure electric vehicles ). The only reason hydrogen fuel cells were pushed was to keep the big players in control once the oil ran low. They would simply go from selling you gasoline to selling you hydrogen. In terms of operating cost, simplicity, and longevity, battery-electric vehicles win hands down over anything else. You can even design in recharging on the fly along Interstate highways if need be, although truthfully 99% of trips fall within the range possible with today's batteries. Supercapacitors will eventually replace today's lithium cells, offering even greater range, longer battery life, and faster recharge times. So in light of all this, what exactly is the point of continuing with fuel cells? About the only application where they make some sense is grid energy storage, where perhaps solar power makes hydrogen which in turn is used during periods of no sunlight. For vehicles hydrogen is too dangerous, expensive, and complex. Fuel-cell vehicles still require a small storage battery because the fuel cell can't deliver the surges of power needed for quick acceleration. Might as well just ditch the fuel cell and put in a large battery. Honda and some other automakers have fuel-cell demos only because governments continue to fund the hydrogen-highway boondoggle.

Regarding this whole transit concept, it's interesting but no way does it have the capacity or speed of a dedicated rail transit line. It's basically a quick way to put in something until funding comes in for real rail transit. I also question the safety unless you make it high enough for even trucks to pass underneath. In short, nice idea for some limited circumstances, such as perhaps offering transit along an Interstate highway. For crowded cities like NY, only subways really make sense given their speed, safety, capacity, freedom from weather. Lately transit planners have been coming up with all sorts of schemes like this or BRT to save a buck. Nice, except in the end the money saved comes at a steep price. Maybe this can ( barely ) match a local subway in terms of average speed but not in capacity. And it won't touch express subway ( 25-35 mph ) or electrified commuter rail ( 30 to 60 mph ) in either average speed or capacity. And because it's not physically separated from road traffic you have the same safety issues as a bus or car. What really gets people out of their cars is mass transit which is as fast or faster than driving. BRT has had mixed results because it's rarely as fast as driving. Subways and commuter rail however generally do much better. In the end, it's simple-build cheap and get fewer riders. Cost per rider may well stay the same whether you build this or a subway. I'd rather build a real subway, and massively reduce the number of vehicles on the road. The lower traffic in turn gets some of those for whom the subway isn't feasible onto bicycles.
 

LunarMist

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That system would not be very practical in AZ. :flower:
 

sechs

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That is a neat idea. For that purpose, it wouldn't need to move quickly, or have as many stations, or have as many routes through the city.
And people bitch about high-speed rail not stopping at their station. What are people going to say when the slow-speed bus doesn't either?

How does this thing take curves?
 

Pradeep

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Here on earth hydrogen isn't a naturally-occurring fuel. It's a very volatile element which instantly combines with other elements. It's simply an energy storage medium which uses about 3 times the energy to produce it as is returned when using it in a fuel cell ( and I'm not counting the energy used to transport it or store it, either ). Moreover, the issues with fuel cells aren't anywhere close to being solved despite 50 years of R&D. We still haven't figured out how to keep them working in low temperatures, for example, or how to make them without exotic, expensive materials. In short, hydrogen is an expensive, inefficient battery. The idea of using explosive hydrogen in motor vehicles makes zero sense when storage batteries are on a steep improvement curve. Right now batteries can give a range of up to 300 miles and recharge times as short as 5 minutes with a suitable charger. Moreover, the fuel distribution network ( i.e. the electric grid ) already exists. Given this, exactly what are the advantages of hydrogen fuel cells? You'll need an expensive new infrastructure. Hydrogen is expected at best to be equivalent to $5 per gallon gasoline in terms of cost ( compared to 1/10th that or less for pure electric vehicles ). The only reason hydrogen fuel cells were pushed was to keep the big players in control once the oil ran low. They would simply go from selling you gasoline to selling you hydrogen. In terms of operating cost, simplicity, and longevity, battery-electric vehicles win hands down over anything else. You can even design in recharging on the fly along Interstate highways if need be, although truthfully 99% of trips fall within the range possible with today's batteries. Supercapacitors will eventually replace today's lithium cells, offering even greater range, longer battery life, and faster recharge times. So in light of all this, what exactly is the point of continuing with fuel cells? About the only application where they make some sense is grid energy storage, where perhaps solar power makes hydrogen which in turn is used during periods of no sunlight. For vehicles hydrogen is too dangerous, expensive, and complex. Fuel-cell vehicles still require a small storage battery because the fuel cell can't deliver the surges of power needed for quick acceleration. Might as well just ditch the fuel cell and put in a large battery. Honda and some other automakers have fuel-cell demos only because governments continue to fund the hydrogen-highway boondoggle.

Regarding this whole transit concept, it's interesting but no way does it have the capacity or speed of a dedicated rail transit line. It's basically a quick way to put in something until funding comes in for real rail transit. I also question the safety unless you make it high enough for even trucks to pass underneath. In short, nice idea for some limited circumstances, such as perhaps offering transit along an Interstate highway. For crowded cities like NY, only subways really make sense given their speed, safety, capacity, freedom from weather. Lately transit planners have been coming up with all sorts of schemes like this or BRT to save a buck. Nice, except in the end the money saved comes at a steep price. Maybe this can ( barely ) match a local subway in terms of average speed but not in capacity. And it won't touch express subway ( 25-35 mph ) or electrified commuter rail ( 30 to 60 mph ) in either average speed or capacity. And because it's not physically separated from road traffic you have the same safety issues as a bus or car. What really gets people out of their cars is mass transit which is as fast or faster than driving. BRT has had mixed results because it's rarely as fast as driving. Subways and commuter rail however generally do much better. In the end, it's simple-build cheap and get fewer riders. Cost per rider may well stay the same whether you build this or a subway. I'd rather build a real subway, and massively reduce the number of vehicles on the road. The lower traffic in turn gets some of those for whom the subway isn't feasible onto bicycles.

Jtr: Can you show a link to a 300 mile range electric car that can recharge in 5 minutes?

Here's 150 mile range hydrogen (4.2kg) refuelling done in 4 minutes:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/08q4/pump_it_up_we_refuel_a_hydrogen_fuel-cell_vehicle-feature

And one of the possibilities that hydrogen allows:

"Honda is striving to address the need for a refueling infrastructure for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles," said Ben Knight, vice president of Honda R&D Americas. "The Home Energy Station represents one promising solution to this issue, while offering the added benefit of heating and powering the home more efficiently."

The natural gas is reformed to produce hydrogen, which is then run directly through to a fuel cell stack to generate electricity for the home and enough heat to run the hot water supply. When immediate consumption is not needed, the hydrogen is refined, compressed and stored in a large tank for later use, or to fill a hydrogen car like the FCX Clarity."

http://www.gizmag.com/honda-fuel-cell-fcx/8394/
 

Bozo

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Pradeep-"The natural gas is reformed to produce hydrogen, which is then run directly through to a fuel cell stack to generate electricity for the home and enough heat to run the hot water supply."
You're back to using a natural resource which can be depleted. If you are going to use natural gas, why not burn it in a converted internal combustion engine and be done with it.
Besides, how much energy does it take to make the conversion? What about the waste products of the conversion?
And, I don't think I would care to have a possible bomb making machine in my basement.
 

flagreen

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Here on earth hydrogen isn't a naturally-occurring fuel. It's a very volatile element which instantly combines with other elements. It's simply an energy storage medium which uses about 3 times the energy to produce it as is returned when using it in a fuel cell ( and I'm not counting the energy used to transport it or store it, either ). Moreover, the issues with fuel cells aren't anywhere close to being solved despite 50 years of R&D. We still haven't figured out how to keep them working in low temperatures, for example, or how to make them without exotic, expensive materials. In short, hydrogen is an expensive, inefficient battery. The idea of using explosive hydrogen in motor vehicles makes zero sense when storage batteries are on a steep improvement curve. Right now batteries can give a range of up to 300 miles and recharge times as short as 5 minutes with a suitable charger. Moreover, the fuel distribution network ( i.e. the electric grid ) already exists. Given this, exactly what are the advantages of hydrogen fuel cells? You'll need an expensive new infrastructure. Hydrogen is expected at best to be equivalent to $5 per gallon gasoline in terms of cost ( compared to 1/10th that or less for pure electric vehicles ). The only reason hydrogen fuel cells were pushed was to keep the big players in control once the oil ran low. They would simply go from selling you gasoline to selling you hydrogen. In terms of operating cost, simplicity, and longevity, battery-electric vehicles win hands down over anything else. You can even design in recharging on the fly along Interstate highways if need be, although truthfully 99% of trips fall within the range possible with today's batteries. Supercapacitors will eventually replace today's lithium cells, offering even greater range, longer battery life, and faster recharge times. So in light of all this, what exactly is the point of continuing with fuel cells? About the only application where they make some sense is grid energy storage, where perhaps solar power makes hydrogen which in turn is used during periods of no sunlight. For vehicles hydrogen is too dangerous, expensive, and complex. Fuel-cell vehicles still require a small storage battery because the fuel cell can't deliver the surges of power needed for quick acceleration. Might as well just ditch the fuel cell and put in a large battery. Honda and some other automakers have fuel-cell demos only because governments continue to fund the hydrogen-highway boondoggle.

Regarding this whole transit concept, it's interesting but no way does it have the capacity or speed of a dedicated rail transit line. It's basically a quick way to put in something until funding comes in for real rail transit. I also question the safety unless you make it high enough for even trucks to pass underneath. In short, nice idea for some limited circumstances, such as perhaps offering transit along an Interstate highway. For crowded cities like NY, only subways really make sense given their speed, safety, capacity, freedom from weather. Lately transit planners have been coming up with all sorts of schemes like this or BRT to save a buck. Nice, except in the end the money saved comes at a steep price. Maybe this can ( barely ) match a local subway in terms of average speed but not in capacity. And it won't touch express subway ( 25-35 mph ) or electrified commuter rail ( 30 to 60 mph ) in either average speed or capacity. And because it's not physically separated from road traffic you have the same safety issues as a bus or car. What really gets people out of their cars is mass transit which is as fast or faster than driving. BRT has had mixed results because it's rarely as fast as driving. Subways and commuter rail however generally do much better. In the end, it's simple-build cheap and get fewer riders. Cost per rider may well stay the same whether you build this or a subway. I'd rather build a real subway, and massively reduce the number of vehicles on the road. The lower traffic in turn gets some of those for whom the subway isn't feasible onto bicycles.


How is hydrogen more dangerous than gasoline or LPG?
 

flagreen

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Check out the Tesla.

That's a nice ride no question about it. Either way with battery power or hydrogen a vast infrastucture must be built for these vehicles to be practicle. Amd at the root of each is the need for municipal electricity. As Pradeep already mentioned nuclear power makes a lot of sense for power generation.
 

jtr1962

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How is hydrogen more dangerous than gasoline or LPG?
It's under much higher pressures than LPG, and also needs to be kept at close to absolute zero. Like I said, using it in vehicles just makes no sense at all. Current electric vehicles have sufficient range for 99% of trips. If there's ever enough demand for it, you'll see fast recharge stations or some means of recharging on the fly. The real limit on recharging time is how much power the charger can deliver, not how fast the battery can absorb it. You might need close to a megawatt to recharge in a few minutes. Obviously home service can't do that.

Anyway, the physics are against fuel cells, and no amount of development can change that. Fact-you only get out about 1/3 the energy making hydrogen and then using it in a fuel cell, comparing to using the same amount of energy to charge a storage battery. Fact-the distribution network for a hydrogen economy will cost well in excess of $1 trillion. For that price we could ( and should ) build a national high-speed rail network which would pretty much negate any reason to travel more than about 75 miles by car. Fact-fuel cell cars will be significantly more expensive to operate than even gasoline cars, never mind electrics. Fact-the technical problems with fuel cells are still nowhere near being solved. We still can't even keep them from freezing in the winter!

Bottom line-fuel cells are a scam to keep people in gasoline cars until the gasoline literally runs dry with the promise of something better eventually. The automakers and everyone else involved knows damned well the whole concept can never be viable either technically or economically but that's precisely the point. It's well known the auto industry doesn't want electric cars because it shoots their business model to hell. Automakers make half again as much on spare parts as they do on the initial sale of the car. They also depend upon a car being pretty much not worth repairing after maybe 200,000 miles, requiring replacement. So of course they don't want EVs which will need only tires and wiper blades, and which can easily last a million miles. It hurts their income stream. It totally kills the income stream for big oil, who incidentally are waiting in the wings to sell you hydrogen should fuel cells ever actually work. Even the American Medical Association came out against electric cars because it would drastically reduce cancer rates from auto pollution. Cancer is one of the big money makers. We still really can't cure it, but hospitals charge a small fortune to extend someone's life by a few months ( if that ) with "treatments" which ultimately kill the patient faster than the cancer might have. Lately though this has changed because we need to get medical costs under control or the system will implode. Reducing cancer rates by reducing air pollution is the quickest way to do that. In short, the opposition to EVs isn't because the technical issues haven't been solved. It's because a lot of entrenched interests will lose big time. The good news is we're finally seeing EVs going mainstream despite all this. A car company in China is even betting their future on EVs constituting the majority of vehicles sold within a decade. My guess is once the public gets their first taste, you'll never here the words "fuel cell" again. What could be better than a car you refuel by plugging in?

And yes, nuclear power for power generation makes a lot of sense. Point of fact we probably won't need much additional capacity even if we went 100% EV. The majority of recharging would be done at night, when there is excess capacity. More efficient appliances and lighting will eventually reduce the residential load. The excess can be used to recharge EVs.
 

sechs

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I recall that a few years ago, Iceland sunk a lot of time and money building hydrogen fueling stations all over the place. They use water and the abundant power from geothermal to split the hydrogen off and release oxygen.

This begs the question, why didn't they just go with electric vehicles?
 

LunarMist

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That is all we need, hydrogen leaking and exploding all over the place. :-x
 

ddrueding

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To be honest, a hydrogen tanker rupturing in the ocean and spilling it's entire load would be much better then an oil tanker doing the same.

Edit: Just had a vision of using dirigibles to transport the gas...neat ;)
 

LunarMist

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Ocean? What about hydrogen transport screwups on the 101 or surface streets? :eek3:
 

sechs

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Because they were considering exporting Hydrogen, IIRC.
Except for the fact that the fueling stations made hydrogen on the spot, that'd make a lot of sense.

Something about the danger of hydrogen pipelines all over the place versus just taping into the existing water and power infrastructure....
 

ddrueding

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I do agree that using electricity is the way to do things. Essentially all the other solutions are just energy storage anyway. Batteries (or supercapacitors) are the future, because they are the easiest way to store electricity.
 
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