Recommend a Laptop / Notebook (v. $800 / 14" 16:10 screen)

[Stereodude]

I thought it was also that the i3/i5 did the GPU on-die, so that power consumption is in there as well.

Another good point.

 

[Mercutio]

I like the Lenovo T410. That's what I'd buy for myself.

That study suggests that Toshiba notebooks are reliable. This is contradicted by reality and all of my experience. In fact, this roughly sums up my opinion of that study:

 

[BingBangBop]

Mercutio,

I'm sorry but I'm not feeling the same as you. It is possible that you and they have had different experiences but they are a lot bigger than you, so I lean towards the bigger sample size.

Then there is that you said they were using Ebay and reconditioned machines to support your point of view when that was directly contradicted. So, at this point I'm feeling that the situation is that you will defend your point of view and say anything to protect it, regardless of the truth.

It may be that the study is bogus, but I don't have anything to indicate that beyond your statement and in this instance your statements are questionable. I need more...

 

[time]

I was easily able to get the E5400 & E5410 under $800 total decently equipped (with the standard 1 year warranty, Win 7 HP, buying the 4GB of RAM from Newegg instead).

Well, buying the RAM elsewhere is cheating , but I was looking at the first one on your list, the E6410 (your simultaneous post focused on the E5410/5400). The E5410 currently has a deep discount, so I wondered if it isn't a runaway winner in terms of bang for the buck?

Doesn't the Core i3/i5/i7 do more work per MHz yielding slightly better battery life, or at least no worse despite the higher TDP?

Hmmm, I thought I read that the i3 was nowhere near an i5, but having now waded through a detailed review, I can see it can have significant advantages over a Core 2, albeit at the cost of increased power consumption while it's working hard (same as i5?).

Ddrueding's right also, the test I read suggested there were potential savings in moving the IGP from the northbridge to the CPU, although only at idle. Can't be the concept, must be Intel's implementation.

 

[Mercutio]

Then there is that you said they were using Ebay and reconditioned machines to support your point of view when that was directly contradicted. So, at this point I'm feeling that the situation is that you will defend your point of view and say anything to protect it, regardless of the truth.

I've not read the entire document. I remember looking at it when it was released and I found their methodology and reporting flawed (as Stereodude said, they don't even break down product lines between ODMs). Unless their methodology and that document have been substantially revised and more data is made available, I'm going to continue to dismiss that document.

 

[ddrueding]

A T410 spec'd to double that cost (without added RAM or SSD) is a very impressive machine. Sitting in my cart now next to another SL510, which I have been happy with so far.

 

[time]

An alternative reliability survey

They produce them every quarter, I've checked three from the last year or so. Asus is always in first or second place and Lenovo in the top three.

Toshiba is always fourth and HP fifth.

In the latest one I linked to, the Lenovo failure rate is half that of Toshiba.

Lenovo was stung by B3's Squaretrade study, stating that their failure rates were less than a third of what it claimed.

Look, I can see that this survey could also be skewed, so I'd rather use a bit of common sense. I don't believe there's any way that current Toshiba products could be any more reliable than current Lenovo products. They may not in fact be less reliable, but there's nothing in the engineering to suggest the converse is possible.

What I think many of us agree on is that you can't compare low-end models from one manufacturer with high-end from another in the same form factor. Inevitably, the low-end units are not as robust.

 

[Stereodude]

Well, buying the RAM elsewhere is cheating , but I was looking at the first one on your list, the E6410 (your simultaneous post focused on the E5410/5400). The E5410 currently has a deep discount, so I wondered if it isn't a runaway winner in terms of bang for the buck?

Oh... Yeah, the E6410 is a lot more money. However, even including the cost of the RAM from Newegg an E5410 system is still under $800.

I haven't talked to my Dad since I gave him the suggestions, but I will follow up with him and try to push him to the Dell over the HP given all of the comments here. I think the Lenovo is just out of the range of what he wants to spend.

Here's the Dell Latitude E5410 I have spec'd out:

PROCESSOR: Intel® Core™ i5-520M (2.4GHz, 3M cache) with Turbo Boost Technology
OPERATING SYSTEM: Genuine Windows® 7 Home Premium, 32-bit, no media (May re-install the system with the x64 version)
LCD PANEL: 14.1 inch Wide Screen WXGA Anti-glare LED Panel (may get the WXGA+ if he wants it)
WARRANTY & SERVICE: 1 Year Limited Warranty and 1 Year Mail-in Service
EXPANSION SLOT AND MODEM: Express Card without modem
MEMORY: 1.0GB, DDR3-1333 SDRAM, 1 DIMM (buy 4GB from someone other than Dell)
CAMERA/MICROPHONE: Digital Microphone (don't think he needs or wants a webcam)
PRIMARY STORAGE: 160GB 5400rpm Hard Drive (HD upgrade options from Dell are too expensive, and it can be upgraded easy enough later)
OPTICAL DRIVE: 8X DVD+/-RW w/Roxio and Cyberlink PowerDVD™, no media
WI-FI WIRELESS CARD: Intel® Centrino® Advanced-N 6200 802.11a/b/g/n Half Mini Card
BATTERY: 6 Cell Battery
PRIMARY POWER OPTIONS: 65W A/C Adapter (3-pin)

Cost: $675 + 4GB of DDR3 RAM (~$110)

 

[Stereodude]

An alternative reliability survey

They produce them every quarter, I've checked three from the last year or so. Asus is always in first or second place and Lenovo in the top three.

Two observations.

1) Where's Dell?

2) Are you sure those are laptops?

 

[time]

1) Their annual summary says Dell has "poor reliability" and didn't make the top 5. :rofl:

2) Well that's a bloody good question isn't it? No, I'm not. I found an extract on some site that seemed to be talking about laptops and jumped to a possibly misleading conclusion.

For what it's worth, Consumer Reports also placed Lenovo high, but that would also be including desktops and it's hopelessly subjective anyway.

Frankly, if you're saving a couple of hundred bucks, I think you're probably right to go for the Dell.

 

[Mercutio]

I really do wish the SL-series Thinkpads came with 16x10 screens.

 

[ddrueding]

Yes, and the resolution is pathetic either way. But my target user (older construction workers) like the large icons anyway.

 

[Mercutio]

Yeah. I brought a customer an SL510 last month to replace a Thinkpad R40 only to find that they wanted the R40 back because it had a 1024x768 screen.

 

[Stereodude]

Lenovo has a sale going on that will get a similarly configured T410 within about $50 of the Dell E5410 I previously listed.

ThinkPad T410:
- Intel Core i5-520M Processor (2.40GHz, 3MB L3, 1066MHz FSB)
- Genuine Windows 7 Home Premium 64 (or 32)
- 14.1 WXGA TFT, w/ LED Backlight (WWAN antenna)
- Intel HD Graphics
- 4 GB PC3-8500 DDR3 SDRAM 1067MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)
- 250 GB Hard Disk Drive, 5400rpm
- DVD Recordable 8x Max Dual Layer, Ultrabay Slim (Serial ATA)
- 6 cell 2.6Ah Li-Ion Battery - Dual Mode
- Intel Centrino Advanced-N 6200 (2x2 AGN)
- 1 Year Depot Warranty

Price after USGSAVET10 coupon code: $821.61 w/ free shipping

Some potential upgrades:
- WXGA+ (1440x900) screen - $22.95
- 2.0MP Webcam - $22.95
- 3 year Depot warranty - $79.20

The standard memory configuration is a single DDR3 2GB SODIMM. You can save $65.03 from the above 4GB configuration by sticking with the standard config. A single 2GB DDR3 SODIMM from Newegg is ~$50 shipped. So, you could save about $15 there, but it's probably not worth the attempted savings if you get a 2nd stick that doesn't work with the included stick in dual channel mode.

 

[ddrueding]

Of course, ordered my i7 T410 last week

 

[Stereodude]

Return it and re-buy?

 

[ddrueding]

Just checked, apparently it only applies to the i3 and i5.

 

[Stereodude]

Just checked, apparently it only applies to the i3 and i5.

:skepo: I'm not sure what you're talking about...

ThinkPad T410:
- Intel Core i7-620M Processor (2.66GHz, 4MB L3, 1066MHz FSB)
- Genuine Windows 7 Professional 64
- 14.1 WXGA+ TFT, w/ LED Backlight (WWAN antenna)
- NVIDIA NVS 3100m Graphics 512MB DDR3 with AMT
- 4 GB PC3-8500 DDR3 SDRAM 1067MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)
- UltraNav (TrackPoint and TouchPad)
- 250 GB Hard Disk Drive, 5400rpm
- DVD Recordable 8x Max Dual Layer, Ultrabay Slim (Serial ATA)
- 6 cell 2.6Ah Li-Ion Battery - Dual Mode
- Bluetooth w/ antenna
- Intel Centrino Ultimate-N 6300 (3x3 AGN)
- 3Yr Priority Support Onsite Warranty

Price after USGSAVET10 coupon code: $1,355.89 w/ free shipping

 

[ddrueding]

Huh, worked this time. Last time it said "code does not apply to items in cart" or something like that.

Thanks!

 

[Stereodude]

So, how much cheaper is the system this time around?

My Dad went with the system I spec'd above + the 3 year Depot warranty. It came out to $900.81 instead of $1173.00 on the standard Lenovo site. Originally when I first was suggesting the T410 I had a similarly spec'd out the I3-330M with a 1 year Depot warranty for $954. So, he got a better processor and the 3 year warranty for less money. Can't complain about that. :mrgrn:

This review convinced me to have him get the Core i5-520M over the i3-330M. It has slightly better idle power consumption and seemed like the sweet spot in terms of performance, plus it supports VT-d which may prove useful down the road.

 

[ddrueding]

I think it was around $1400 with the discount, have that paperwork back at the office.

 

[sechs]

Has anyone actually ever used the IBM/Lenovo depot warranty?

I always specify on site. It seems easy to convince everyone that's worth shelling out.

 

[Mercutio]

I've used Lenovo's warranty. I always just do depot. Most repairs I do myself, but screens and board swaps I let them handle. I can only think of one time I didn't get a system back in five business days.

 

[LunarMist]

A week can be very annoying to the user. Up to 2008 our work computers were repaired on site. Now it takes at least a week (2 days of that are shipping) and one receives a crappy loaner that does not have the right software.

 

[ddrueding]

This T410 is freaking awesome. I've never felt such a solid keyboard before. A physical switch to turn off all radios. Drip channels that route liquids spilled on the keyboard all the way through and out the bottom of the chassis without invading the machine? How cool is that?

My only complaint so far is that one of the DIMM sockets required keyboard removal (2 screws!).

 

[Santilli]

Waiting for more on is this the i7? When does the SSD go in?

 

[ddrueding]

It is awesome. Already upgraded to 8GB of RAM and the 200GB Vertex LE goes in upon arrival tomorrow. I think that pushes it out of the $800 price range

 

[Santilli]

How about starting a new thread on this laptop?

I've heard Merc recommend them, but, he hasn't really posted much on working with them.

I'd like to hear what you think.

Thanks

Greg

 

[Mercutio]

I don't own one. I've had customers buy a couple and I've been impressed with them, but I have two recent model T-series Thinkpads now that more than meet my needs.

 

[Handruin]

I have a T500 that's about 1 year old and it also meets my needs. David, my T series also required the removal of the keyboard to get to the second DIMM. I also think it was two screws, maybe three.

 

[Stereodude]

My Dad's T410 arrived at his house yesterday, but he hasn't removed it from the box yet.

 

[Santilli]

My Dad's T410 arrived at his house yesterday, but he hasn't removed it from the box yet.

When it's out of the box, like to see what you think.

 

[LunarMist]

What is so special about that Lenovo, the CPU? It seems to be in the middle no-man's land of size vs. weight.

 

[Stereodude]

What is so special about that Lenovo, the CPU? It seems to be in the middle no-man's land of size vs. weight.

Well, my Dad didn't want a huge laptop, and he didn't want a small laptop. So, I expect it will fit his needs pretty well.

 

[ddrueding]

What is so special about that Lenovo, the CPU? It seems to be in the middle no-man's land of size vs. weight.

It isn't the lightest with that screen size, but it is loaded with features, and incredibly well built. It is hard to advertise quality, which is why so few vendors bother with quality, but Lenovo seems to have done just that.

 

[Santilli]

It isn't the lightest with that screen size, but it is loaded with features, and incredibly well built. It is hard to advertise quality, which is why so few vendors bother with quality, but Lenovo seems to have done just that.

That's how I feel about Panasonic. However, they are just too far behind the edge on offering processors, and, if they offer a decent processor, the laptop is 4 grand.

One of these days we'll have to get together and compare the build feel between the Thinkpads and the CF-51.

Also, I tend to like higher resolutions, and bigger screens...

The option list on the Thinkpads is real easy to fall into...

 

[Mercutio]

What is so special about that Lenovo, the CPU? It seems to be in the middle no-man's land of size vs. weight.

For features and specs, it's in desktop replacement territory, but weight is reasonable/tolerable at maybe 2.5kg. There's a high quality screen, a superb keyboard and a titanium rollcage for a frame. Accessories tend to be cheap and readily available ($15 for an extra AC adapter on Ebay) and they're made so that a technician can easily manage repairs and upgrades.

And then there's the little extras like the drains that protect against liquid spills, the modular design of the power plug (it's also designed to fall out if something tugs on it, but I'm thinking about the internal part of the plug here) and the shock protection system on the hard drive.

Oh, and the support.

 

[LunarMist]

It sounds like a excellent machine for that reason. At work we have laptops made by a company that rhymes with a really unpleaseant afterlife. :bibber:

 

[CityK]

Personally, I think the only draw back on the Lenovo T's is the screen quality -- for the price, it would be nice to get a higher quality display. Nonetheless, the Tx10s, are very nice.

Incidentally, got a L412 for a relative last week for $683 CAD ... opted to stay with the base i3 330M (sure the i5 would be nice, but not worth it for them, nor needed), 4GB ram, 160GB 5400 (yeah, that sucks, but will be moving them to a SSD in a year's time I imagine -- when they are more economical ... in the meantime, their having a hard time using up 30GB in their current system, so no biggie), Intel 6200, 6 cell, blah blah blah...

Thought it was better equipped and priced then anything at the time. Dell is the other obvious candidate for me when it comes to laptops. The rest? Meh -- why bother: build quality or price wise, they ain't worth ...

L series, BTW, replaces the Thinkpad R series. L series also replaces SL, but, in fact, is itself really an updated SL -- with the new intel platform, displayport, keyboard and docking (supports all new series 3 docks -- nice!). So, the L series becomes the entry enterprise thinkpad. And the IdeaPad slips into the role of SMB, which the SL was originally intended for.

If you need extra durability (rollcage, higher quality plastic and build), lighter weight, thinner, and higher cpu configs, then the T's would fit the bill. But if its going to sit on the desk, with some light travel duty, then the L would do great. As would some of the Dells.

 

[sechs]

I've used Lenovo's warranty. I always just do depot. Most repairs I do myself, but screens and board swaps I let them handle. I can only think of one time I didn't get a system back in five business days.

If it's a work machine or, worse, one's only machine, that's practically forever.

The longest that I've seen someone wait with the on-site warranty is two days -- because they initially overnighted the wrong part.