Review of new Toyota Prius

Pradeep

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The JoJo said:
We finns can't help but laugh (sorry :) ) when we see pictures from the US when people are trying to drive with summer tires in snow and ice. Seems those places do have snow now and then, but it really caughts people by surprise?

We drive about 5 months a year with winter tires, with small metal "nubs" in them.

IME people in NY tend to drive faster when the conditions deteriorate. Pissing down with sheets of water on the road? Well let's drive at 80MPH on a concrete Thruway. It's amazing more people aren't killed. And yes I've seen footage of NYC drivers in the snow, definitely can't help laughing.

I went with Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50's, I might try the Nokians next year.
 

e_dawg

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Generally, serious snow tires like WS-50 and the Nokian Hakka 1/Q are biased too far in favour of snow performance and not enough for dry road performance. They are too soft, folding and squirming under any cornering loads, and they wear out quickly on dry roads (even more so when the temperature rises).

What you need in most places is a high performance snow tire like the Michelin Pilot Alpin, the Dunlop WinterSport M2/M3, Bridgestone LM-22, or the Pirelli SnowSport 210 (or Hakka NRW/WR for Nokian fans). These tires are good enough for snow/ice that they are certified by the Rubber Manufacturers' Association (RMA) for severe snow/ice duty with the "snowflake on mountain" logo. Yet, they also retain much of the dry road performance characteristics of all-season tires.

In most places that receive snow in the US, you really don't need anything more. Minny and Buffalo are the only two places I can think of where you would possibly need something as specialized as the WS-50 or Nokian Hakka 1/Q.
 

Pradeep

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Well we had about 25" more snow than Buffalo last Winter.

http://www.wktv.com/wktv1997/almanac97/snowrace.html

The WS-50 is definitely very soft, however they are attached to a Taurus, hardly the pinnacle of automotive handling :) I'm praying for early snowfalls so they don't wear too quickly. Had a few snowflakes this morning but nothing settling for long.
 

Buck

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Thanks for the information Craig.

Nice stats for the largest engine in the group:
Volkswagon Diesel New Beetle/Golf/Jetta 1.9-liter 4-cylinder 5-speed manual (City)38 (Hwy)46 (Annual Cost)$494

Although I would prefer to see more of these fuel mizers getting 40 or more miles per gallon in the city. High highway mileage is much easier to obtain. I also wonder what the mileage is on the Diesel when it's cold.
 

CraigLC

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The thing I noticed was that its all Hon-duhs and Toyotas except for the Volkswagon obviously. No Fords or Chevies or Dodges. And don't give me the "Hon-duhs are built in Kentucky" crap its still an import. I wonder when the american car makers are going to enter the field. I had heard ages ago about a concept Dodge Ram Hybrid. I think it had a 6 cyl deisel engine for the rough stuff and an electric engine for the highway mileage.
 

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The Renault Clio common rail turbo diesel that I rented last year was claimed 75mpg at 50mph ;) I put £5 worth of fuel (under 2 gallons) and did over 130 miles of hard driving before giving it back - there was only a few drops of fuel already in it when I picked it up and just a bit more when I returned it... and it wasn't even run in yet - three digit mileage.

Was only 80hp but quite punchy when the turbo wakes up.
 

CraigLC

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NRG = mc² said:
The Renault Clio common rail turbo diesel that I rented last year was claimed 75mpg at 50mph ;) I put £5 worth of fuel (under 2 gallons) and did over 130 miles of hard driving before giving it back - there was only a few drops of fuel already in it when I picked it up and just a bit more when I returned it... and it wasn't even run in yet - three digit mileage.

Was only 80hp but quite punchy when the turbo wakes up.

80hp :eekers: :bglaugh: How much more did the turbo provide? That car has to weigh something like 1000 lbs in order to feel punchy with only 80 hp.
 

NRG = mc²

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Hi,

80hp is peak power, but turbodiesels have lots of torque low down and feel faster than they are - for example, the overtaking 30-50 performance of this model is slightly better than the 1.6 litre version with 105hp - even though their 0-60 times are 12 and under 10 seconds respectively.

Its a small car, probably weighs 1700lbs
 

CraigLC

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Wow! I could never be happy in a car like that. gas Mileage be damned. I'll admit people shouldnt need 300 or more horses for everyday driving but I honestly dont feel i could ever be happy driving an 80 hp 1700lb car.

I think that the smaller the car is the faster it feels. This is probably why a lot of younger people ages 12 - 20 ish feel like their Hondas and toyotas are fast (cars like the supra not included in this generalization). By The same token a guy on another board recently got the chance of a lifetime to drive a dual turbo porsche. He said it didnt feel faster then his Camaro. he knew it was...it just didnt feel it. Most likely because the porsche is a much more refined car and he is used to the tourque monster that is th LS1. A small car like that has what i call "The Go-Kart effect" I got to place locally that allows you to race go-karts on a Track. handruin went with me once. Max speed...about 30 - 35 mph sure feels a heck of a lot faster though because its small and low to the ground :) quite a rush! and as Handruin will tell you...quite a strain on the arms!
 

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CraigLC said:
This is probably why a lot of younger people ages 12 - 20 ish feel like their Hondas and toyotas are fast...
You let your 12 years old kids drive cars? You 'ricans are crazy.
 

Howell

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As you indicated Craig a lot of the feel of speed is related to how high of the ground you ride. I have noticed this when driving my parents mini-van vs. small GMC pickup vs. my Legend. At the same speed, the lower the car is to the ground the faster it feels.

I honestly dont feel i could ever be happy driving an 80 hp 1700lb car.

Why? What aspect of that sort of vehicle do you not like? What would the manufacturer have to do differently?

Speaking of light cars: Are there any cars manufactured today that use plastic for major body panel skins? I know the Saturns use plastic skins on the doors, marketed as dent resistant doors. And I know there are replacement body panels made from fiberglass sold for the SCCA market, eg. almost all body panels plus the hood for the Porsche 944.
 

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CraigLC said:
Wow! I could never be happy in a car like that. gas Mileage be damned. I'll admit people shouldnt need 300 or more horses for everyday driving but I honestly dont feel i could ever be happy driving an 80 hp 1700lb car.

I think that the smaller the car is the faster it feels. This is probably why a lot of younger people ages 12 - 20 ish feel like their Hondas and toyotas are fast (cars like the supra not included in this generalization). By The same token a guy on another board recently got the chance of a lifetime to drive a dual turbo porsche. He said it didnt feel faster then his Camaro. he knew it was...it just didnt feel it. Most likely because the porsche is a much more refined car and he is used to the tourque monster that is th LS1. A small car like that has what i call "The Go-Kart effect" I got to place locally that allows you to race go-karts on a Track. handruin went with me once. Max speed...about 30 - 35 mph sure feels a heck of a lot faster though because its small and low to the ground :) quite a rush! and as Handruin will tell you...quite a strain on the arms!

I think the smaller the car is, the more you feel the road, which in turn feels like more speed. A shorter wheel base will allow more of the changes in the road to hit the driver. (the shorter the car, the closer you sit to the wheels) It's the same concept as sitting on the end of a seesaw vs. sitting in the middle of it.

Add into the equations people who lower the vehicle and tighten the suspension and now you have a car that feels every piece of dirty on the road.

I like Honda as I'm sure you know, but I'm not into the big wing and fart-pipe sounding exhaust. Unfortunately much like race in society, it only takes a few to ruin it for the rest. I feel Honda is more conscious of the environment than most car manufacturers. (I'm not saying all, but more than most) At the same time they squeeze out some decent power out of small engines with good gas mileage and low pollution.
 

CraigLC

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Hmm.. yeah that twleve was a definite typo! oops.

As for the 80 horses...Its hard to explain. I consider myself an automotive enthusiast...of course there are different types. Some one who follows cars like the Prius could claim to be an enthusaist too. Their concentration would be on environmentally safer alternatives. In my case its Horse power and tourque. I like racing of all sorts but have mostly settled on drag racing as my hobby of choice. For me when I am having a bad day...pulling out my 298 hp ( to the wheels) trans am and cruising the the gears and hearing the rumble of a big V8 makes everything right. I am sure we all have our own "Happy place" For me its my car. the 80 hp tin can idea would be transportation and nothing more. I would never have an emotional attachment to it. Right there is the problem for me. I do almost all my own work. It not only saves me money but provides me enjoyment. If I dont like the car there is no motivation for me to do the work.

As for Hondas...I wasn't downing them Doug. They are what they are designed to be and are a great example of econimical, dependable transportation. Some of them are even decent performers in many motorsports events. I was more making the analogy of the kids these days who buy a 91 honda accord or maybe a CRX and trash talk to guys with corvettes saying how they could whoop their ass. We see that all the time around here. Add a fart pipe and a huge 100lb rear spoiler on a front wheel drive car and they think its a race car. I come from a long line of grease monkies and backyard mechanics. I just dont find it appealing
 

Buck

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Yeah, I've always been torn between the economical and the powerful. The economical has appealed to me not because of its good economics, but usually because of the technology used to bring down the overall cost, such as present hybrid solutions.

I hope someday, that if my economic status improves, I can include in my collection of cars:
300 SEL 6.3
450 SEL 6.9
450 SLC
600 (I've mentioned this one before.)

I have owned a 450 SLC and enjoyed it a lot. Besides the power, I like the comfort and room for the front passengers. The design finds a soft spot with me too for some odd reason. I was very close to purchasing a 450 SEL 6.9, but the vehicle I was looking at required too much work for the amount of money the owner wanted. The 300 SEL 6.3 would be included not only for its power, but also because of its looks. I have always found this to be a beautiful body style.

What is great fun, is when you sit at a signal light with the unassuming (sometimes grandma looking as I've been told) 300 SEL 6.3 next to one of those lowered-over-exhausted-boom-box-jobs, and you nail the gas pedal as the light turns green, only to see that little matchbox disappear in your rearview mirror. Before you know it, you're out of range of the their loud music too. :)
 

Howell

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CraigLC said:
Hmm.. yeah that twleve was a definite typo! oops.

As for the 80 horses...Its hard to explain. I consider myself an automotive enthusiast...of course there are different types. Some one who follows cars like the Prius could claim to be an enthusaist too. Their concentration would be on environmentally safer alternatives.

There are certain groups of engineers and engineering enthusiasts that value the biggest/baddest/most powerful design they can achieve, above all else. There are other groups of engineers and engineering entusiasts that value the biggest/baddest/most powerful design they can achieve in concert with other design limitations such as cost and say fuel efficiency.

Notice the difference between say a top fuel dragster and a Baja 1000 racer. I'm not saying building the most powerful engine in the world would be easy; but I have a certain added amount of respect for the guy that can do it with additional design constraints like fuel efficiency.

Craig, how does this sit with you. Or this.
 

jtr1962

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I thought this part was interesting:

.4 megawatt Godzilla with series/parallel motor switcher...the car takes off at full torque in series mode, then is switched over at higher speeds to parallel for maximum horsepower.

Sounds suspiciously like the way older(pre-thyristor controlled) subway cars used to work, except for having four motors and using series, series-parallel, and parallel. Yep, those old controllers only had three positions. You controlled speed by accelerating to the desired speed, then just applying little bursts of power now and again to maintain it.

As an aside, a 250 HP electric motor will accelerate a vehicle about twice as fast as a 250 HP gasoline engine simply because it can deliver the peak hp at all speeds(or at least the speeds above which wheelspin isn't an issue). A gasoline motor is out out it's peak power point most of the time, although a CVT evens the score quite a bit.
 

blakerwry

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A regular transmission when geared properly for the type of driving does alot too.

I found it especially annoying when driving older ford cars (80's) that their automatic transmissions seemed like they were designed for entirely different cars... they were geared all wrong and shifted at terrible times. Which resulted in overall lower power to the ground and shitty acceleration.

I was pleasantly surprised to find the "soccer mom"/family car toyota Camry to have an excellently matched 4 speed automatic transmission for the 3.0 litre V6 offered. Although I wish I had a car with alot better handling; my next car will probably be a smaller, lighter honda.
 

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For those that admire low-displacement, high-tech sports cars then the Nissan Skyline GT-R is a good bet. Twin-turbo 2.6l V6, AWD, 4 wheel steering. This thing beat the pants out of Ford and Holden (GM) V8 racecars in Australia back in the day when they were allowed to race. The V8 fans got upset and so turbo 4 wheel drive cars were banned from the competition. Apparently quite easy to tune up to beyond 1000HP, with 500 being no probs at all.
 

blakerwry

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yup, the skylines are great cars if you're playing gran tourisimo. You can buy them used cheaply and and crank up the HP and other stats as you win races. They'll be good cars till the end of their lifetime.
 

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I honestly dont feel i could ever be happy driving an 80 hp 1700lb car.

Just a matter of what you're used to. Note, I didn't say it was a fast car - or at least I didn't mean it.

What I meant was that for a modern car of that power, or more importantly of that gas mileage, it is much faser than what one would expect.

e.g. other cars that remotely approach 75mpg (more like 55) will develop ~50hp and will be painfuly, aggravatingly slow.

Example, the Opel Corsa of a friend, tin can as you say, 1200cc 8 valve engine, ~45hp. Hits 60 in 18 seconds. You have to change gear down a gear each time the wind changes direction, and forget overtaking. I would estimate that does 50mpg, but less in real life since you have to keep thrashing it in low gear to actually be an alternative to walking.

On the other hand, the Clio dCi with 80hp isn't exactly fast, but overtakes faster than any other car I have driven or been in of its size/weight that has less than 100hp let alone does 75mpg. For me, a car with a 0-60 time of 12 seconds isn't slow enough to be annoying to drive. And this particular car isn't a tin can either, perhaps its size, but inside it is very refined, no tin can flimsy built feeling, doors close with a thud, but not a diesel-like NVH that many other diesels and small cars of the past had.

The ones I drove were fitted with low profile rubber and sports suspension package from the factory so the ride wasn't very comfy, but corners better than your Trans-Am I would suspect ;)
 

CraigLC

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[quote="Howell
Craig, how does this sit with you. Or this.[/quote]

I can respect the efforts of all those cars. That Datsun is pretty quick! As for NEDRA. I couldn't tell at a glance wether those are 8th mile tracks or quater mile tracks. Either way racing is racing and I would salute anyone who tries to field a vehicle and be competative. Its still the difference of the rumble of the engine. Some of the excitement for me is the noise factor. Its hard to explain to some. Especially to those who dont care for the noise. I have NEVER felt anything more powerful then when standing behind John Force's Funny car or Kenny Bernstiens Bud King Dragster while they blip the throttle to test it after damn near replacing the engine in under 75 minutes. You actually cease to hear for a split second and you just FEEL the sound waves pass through your body. By the way...if anyone decides to attend an event to experience this... bring a gas mask! When they start shooting that stuff out it can literally gag you...especially if you have any sort of asthma.
 

Howell

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CraigLC said:
I can respect the efforts of all those cars. That Datsun is pretty quick! As for NEDRA. I couldn't tell at a glance wether those are 8th mile tracks or quater mile tracks.

As Buck noted, the owner humerously refered to the range of his vehicle as "At least a quarter mile." That's the only evidence I have either way. Other than they use the NHRA rulebook.

I know wat you mean about the brute power. Something magical happens when your insides vibrate so much you get a little queasy. It's as exciting as hearing the loudest thunder-clap you've ever heard.

Some folks find their excitement in large caliber hand-guns. I think the basic primal excitement is the same.
 

NRG = mc²

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Bloody hell, that is humongous!! How on earth do they start that engine up, would like to see the starter motor...
 

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fi.. fi.. five point six million lb-ft of torque and a mere 102RPM???? Holy <bleep>.

That is one very large, very powerful engine. Pretty darn efficient, too, for a combustion engine. I especially like the ladder leading down into the crank case. :mrgrn:
 

CraigLC

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Dammit Buck! I done made a mess in my pants now! Where is a Homer Simpson drooling picture when you need one
 

jtr1962

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Needless to say, that engine won't fit inside a car. In fact, quite the opposite seems to be true. :mrgrn: Those cylinders are huge.

I'm guessing it's used for either electrical generation or powering very large ships like tankers. Nothing else I can think of would require that much power. Well, actually I think the SR-71 did, but that engine is far too large and heavy to even think about putting in a plane.
 

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A friend of mine was a Marine Engineer who worked on container ships. One time (pre 9/11), he gave me a tour of the ship, including the engine room. The engine was huge, but IIRC not as huge as this one; maybe because I saw the "installed" engine, with the bulk of it hidden by the "deck" in the engine room. He said if pushed really, really hard, that engine could do 600 RPM. These engines are supposed to last 40 years or so. And they're not your grandma's engines either; modern container ships do a steady 21 knots, weather permitting, of course. Can you imaging how much AIR the thing needs to breathe?! The biggest recollection I have of the engine room is the huge downdraft of air coming into the room from the ~20 SQFT opening above, directly to the sky. It was almost strong enough to knock you off your feet.

He quit 2 years ago; his hearing was begining to go, and he started having knee problems from having to work in awkward postures.
 

flagreen

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2,000 Pounds was a good price assuming it runs. Imagine the reaction of your neighbors though when they hear that thing crank up.
 

Buck

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Hoolie Doolie! Besides the noise, you'll need to watch out for any items caught in that thrust. You could wipe out someones front lawn or take out a few kids firing that thing up.
 

jtr1962

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No mention of 0 to 60 time. I guess you have to keep the brakes on until the engine spools up for the best times(same as they do for airliners). Must be noisy as all hell, too.
 

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Tallman and I went to a car show this past weekend. If I get off my lazy butt, I'll post some pictures. I took a bunch of the new Prius for Cougtek.
 
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