Review of new Toyota Prius

[CougTek]

I took a bunch of the new Prius for Cougtek.

Thanks. I will go to the Montréal auto show in January to look and sit in it. Right now, my budget prefers the Corolla (it doesn't consume much more fuel).

My car seems to work ok for the moment, so I might not change this year, even if I'm tempted. Next time it breaks though, bye bye for sure.

 

[Handruin]

Surprisingly I am able to fit comfortably in the back seat of the Prius being 6'1". The trunk is rather small for that car, but I'm not surprised given the cars size.

I was also surprised that the car gets better city gas mileage than highway (by as much as 9 gallons if I remember correctly). Must have something to do with the use of electric motor and regenerative breaking?

We also saw a brand of car I was not yet familiar with named scion. They seem to be built with Toyota parts, but they cost very little. One of the scion models was roughly $13,000 USD which isn't very expensive for a new car these days.

 

[Fushigi]

We also saw a brand of car I was not yet familiar with named scion. They seem to be built with Toyota parts, but they cost very little. One of the scion models was roughly $13,000 USD which isn't very expensive for a new car these days.

Scions are Toyotas. Consider them replacements for the Tercel.

 

[Howell]

Scions are Toyotas. Consider them replacements for the Tercel.

So, Honda started the luxury car company trend with Acura followed by Lexus and Infiniti. Is Toyota starting the cheap car company trend with Scion? Will every market segment eventually have a car company to call their own?

 

[Fushigi]

So, Honda started the luxury car company trend with Acura followed by Lexus and Infiniti. Is Toyota starting the cheap car company trend with Scion? Will every market segment eventually have a car company to call their own?

My gut feel is that it serves three purposes:

1. Gives Toyota an outlet for edgier designs. Scions definitely are polarizing, unlike pretty much everything else from Toyota (which mostly screams "Bland!"). Toyota doesn't tend to use radical styling; with Scion they can.

2. Allows Toyota to compete on price. Many people will say Toyota's are great but are pricey for what you get. Scions should compete better on price & features against the others in the sub-$15K segment. Cars in that segment are getting awfully good.

3. Lets them introduce vehicles that previously weren't available in north america to the market without risking the Toyota 'brand'.

Of course, I should add that the Echo is probably the real Tercel replacement. But IMO it took a few whacks from the ugly stick. I'm not fond of Scion's looks, either, but then I'm not in the demographic it's designed to appeal to.

 

[CougTek]

I couldn't care less for the Scion xB, but the Scion xA is supposedly a fine car. Think of it as an Echo with a sporty road handling. Motor Trend (yeah, I know...Motor Trend) tested it back in their July 2003 issue and according to their measurements, it beated both the Miata and the Jaguar X-type in the slalom test, despite the xA relatively weak 108hp engine. Not bad for a car price at around 12,400U$.

 

[jtr1962]

Surprisingly I am able to fit comfortably in the back seat of the Prius being 6'1". The trunk is rather small for that car, but I'm not surprised given the cars size.

That's certainly good news. I remember feeling claustrophobically cramped in my friend's Mitsubishi Precis about 15 years ago and I'm only 5'9". I hate to think how a larger person would have felt in that shitbox.

I was also surprised that the car gets better city gas mileage than highway (by as much as 9 gallons if I remember correctly). Must have something to do with the use of electric motor and regenerative breaking?

Simple physics, really. A conventional car gets worse mileage in the city mainly for two reasons-the engine is burning fuel even when stopped or moving slowly, and energy is used to repeatedly accelerate the car. The Prius(or any hybrid) gets around this by only running the engine when the battery charge gets low, and by recovering some kinetic energy through regenerative braking. Because average speeds in the city are slower, the average propulsive force is less. Hybrids, by virtue of their design, can take advantage of this fact, and thus burn less fuel per mile in city driving. As the efficiency of regenerative braking increases so will the gap between city and highway driving. As an aside, regenerative braking can greatly increase the range of a straight electric in city driving, thus making such vehicles more practical than ever before.

 

[Pradeep]

Finally gave the snow tires a good try out today, got a few inches and some very windy conditions upstate. I must say, the difference of the snow tires compared to the cheap all-season ameritread crap that was on there before is amazing. Especially when going around a corner, the back end doesn't try and overtake you It's great for the confidence, no need to be scared anymore.

And they def saved a $500 insurance deductible this arvo when a big plump doe jumped out in front of me when I was travelling around 50MPH. Had I been on the all-seasons I would have collected my first deer a few days before the season starts. Coudn't help laughing as I saw a Jeep Cherokee slide into a ditch in slow motion, all 4 wheels spinning with not a hope of traction.

 

[Howell]

I have been thinking about the feasability of a hybrid for me in my current situation.

Frankly, while the car would get great gas milage I fear for the engine. I don't think it would ever run for long enough to get hot enough to get proper oil circulation.

The first 30 seconds of an engine running is the worst time as far as wear is concerned and in my application it would practicly be in that state perpetually.

I am now ten minutes to work with 5 of it at 70mph freeway driving.

I'm thinking the best solution for me would be a pure electric. jtr, what recharging method could be used so that I did not have to plug it in but it recharged as a function of parking it in its parking place.

Parking it in its designated place would be fine but I don't want to have to remember to plug it in.

 

[jtr1962]

The first 30 seconds of an engine running is the worst time as far as wear is concerned and in my application it would practicly be in that state perpetually.

Agreed, that's definitely a problem, and the only possible solution I see to it would be if roller crankshaft bearings were used. Maybe that's part of the reason hybrids cost more money. Anyone know more about this than I do?

I'm thinking the best solution for me would be a pure electric. jtr, what recharging method could be used so that I did not have to plug it in but it recharged as a function of parking it in its parking place.

Parking it in its designated place would be fine but I don't want to have to remember to plug it in.

I agree that if most of your trips are maybe 50 miles or less(round trip) then an electric is something you should seriously consider. Those few times you need to drive longer distances you can always rent a car. Unfortunately, as of yet parking lots don't regularly have someplace to plug in an electric, and even if they did, it's easy to forget as you said. I'm thinking that electrics could be made with solar panels integrated into the roof(and also the hood and truck). While at current efficiencies this probably wouldn't provide all the power the car needs, there would be an associated payback time with it because of utility bill savings, and it would even enable you to partially recharge your battery while moving. Of course, the cells probably couldn't supply all the motive power needed but they definitely would extend the range as well as reduce the number of times you need to plug in. If you use your vehicle very infrequently or only for short trips, it's quite feasible you might never have to plug it in. What a novel concept-a non-human powered vehicle with no running costs(other than repairs and insurance)! :idea: Another idea, albeit a silly one, is to have pedals(the kind you turn with your feet) attached to a generator in front of all the seats. Make each passenger pull their own weight. :diablo:

In any case, battery technology keeps getting better and better. Combined with energy-saving measures such a regenerative braking and large capacitors(to supply the battery-killing peak loads when accelerating), we should (hopefully) see electric vehicles with a decent range soon. Remember if we get the range up to, say 120 miles, we'll be covering the daily requirements of more than 99% of drivers. It will only be a matter of convincing them to make the switch from gas to electric. In areas with low KW-hr rates this should be a no-brainer as operating savings will more than pay for the extra cost of the vehicle. Mass production should insure that eventually straight electrics are less expensive than conventional cars. After all, an internal combustion engine is a precision machine. The only reason one costs so little to make is mass production. There is nothing even remotely as complex in an electric vehicle, so mass production should be less expensive.

 

[e_dawg]

Finally gave the snow tires a good try out today, got a few inches and some very windy conditions upstate. I must say, the difference of the snow tires compared to the cheap all-season ameritread crap that was on there before is amazing. Especially when going around a corner, the back end doesn't try and overtake you It's great for the confidence, no need to be scared anymore.

Yep. Snow tires are an excellent upgrade for your car if you live in a place that gets snow in the winter. Another happy snow-tire owner.

Coudn't help laughing as I saw a Jeep Cherokee slide into a ditch in slow motion, all 4 wheels spinning with not a hope of traction.

What is it about people who think 4 wheel drive SUV's come standard with limitless traction? Everybody thinks that way. No matter how much you explain why snow tires are more important than 4wd, people will still buy their SUV's and run all-seasons on them.

 

[e_dawg]

FYI: Some things to consider before buying a hybrid

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pb/hybrids.htm

 

[Pradeep]

Everything I've read has rated the Crossfire as a POS, far too heavy for the measly power from it's 5.2l engine.

But I agree with the main argument, for severe winter conditions a hybrid is probably not the best choice. Perhaps one of these :mrgrn:

http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=7366

 

[CougTek]

You have strange ideas for winter cars.

 

[Buck]

So, a good portion of US drivers switch to electricty because technology has advanced far enough for reasonable commutes. Who is going to produce all of the electricity we need? Fossil fuel consuming power plants? Now, if we could set up solar cells on our homes, and use the stored capacity from those to recharge our vehicles at night, that would be useful. Not to mention the acres of roof space available at many businesses which could double as solar stations.

 

[jtr1962]

For what it's worth even if 100% of the electricity for electric cars were to be produced by fossil-fuel burning power plants, it would still be a good idea if everyone switched over. For starters the power plant produces useful energy from fuel more efficiently that a car can(~50% vs 20%). Second, the emissions can be controlled in one place rather than many. Most important, the emissions aren't distributed all over the place where they cause all sorts of problems(both health and odor wise).

However, the fact is that fossil fuel only accounts for less than half of our electrical production, so electric cars should mean a net decrease in emissions. Also, I agree that solar cells not only on cars but on homes are a great idea, so if that were to catch on as well you have yet more reduction in emissions. Finally, besides the fact that they don't pollute, electric cars aren't noisy like their internal combustion engine counterparts. Interesting that the EU should favor diesels over hybrids or electrics for more efficient vehicles in light of the noise factor(diesels are very noisy, and they stink, too). I think it would be nice to have most vehicles just make a slight wind and tire noise as they roll by rather than hearing noisy engines at every stoplight. Now if only something were on the drawing board to get rid noise and smell from the damned airplanes.....

 

[Howell]

jtr, what recharging method could be used so that I did not have to plug it in but it recharged as a function of parking it in its parking place.

Parking it in its designated place would be fine but I don't want to have to remember to plug it in.

I was thinking of some technology that could be embedded in the floor of the garage or maybe mounted to the garage wall that could recharge the vehicle from a distance. 18/6/3". Whatever need be the distance. But does such an phenomena exist to allow recharging from a distance.

 

[Buck]

You don't need to really recharge from a distance. If you have designated parking spaces for electric vehicles, when the car is parked, it wirelessly communicates with the recharging system at the parking spot. The recharging system has a probe that comes up from the ground, and connects to the vehicle. Charging then commences. If you were to get into the vehicle and turn the car on, the recharging unit would automatically disengage and close up under the ground if the charging sequence was not completed yet. If it was, it would have already disconnected on its own.

 

[NRG = mc²]

Diesel cars are popular because they are not much more expensive than their petrol counterparts to buy, you can fill up at any gas station, and the mileage and service intervals are better than petrol engines. A hybrid or electric solution is obviously better for the environment but expensive, impractical, etc. The good thing with diesels, especially modern ones is that they emit very little CO2, although particulates are increased. This is less of a problem with modern diesels, though.

I am still surprised why more people don't use LPG instead - it is reasonably widespread (quite a few petrol stations nowdays sell LPG), conversion costs are not very high, safety is not an issue (thats what they say anyway), and its cheaper per mile than petrol or diesel, while retaining the almost the same engine performance with less emmisions than petrol or diesel.

 

[NRG = mc²]

It should be theoretically possible to charge a car from a distance by using suitable coils, but in practice would probably present a load of other problems, such as that of the coil's magnetic field for a start.

 

[Buck]

Diesel cars are popular because they are not much more expensive than their petrol counterparts to buy, you can fill up at any gas station, and the mileage and service intervals are better than petrol engines. A hybrid or electric solution is obviously better for the environment but expensive, impractical, etc. The good thing with diesels, especially modern ones is that they emit very little CO2, although particulates are increased. This is less of a problem with modern diesels, though.

I am still surprised why more people don't use LPG instead - it is reasonably widespread (quite a few petrol stations nowdays sell LPG), conversion costs are not very high, safety is not an issue (thats what they say anyway), and its cheaper per mile than petrol or diesel, while retaining the almost the same engine performance with less emmisions than petrol or diesel.

My previous neighbor had an LPG vehicle. Nice little thing, but fill up stations are far away in my area. As matter of fact, none of them are within my normal commute range. I rarely even go up to where those stations exist. Plus, there is only two of them, and the range of those LPG vehicles is not all that good. I can go over 400 miles on one tank of diesel with my large and roomy car. That is including a mix of city and highway driving -- most of which ends up being city driving.

 

[Howell]

I am still surprised why more people don't use LPG instead - it is reasonably widespread (quite a few petrol stations nowdays sell LPG), conversion costs are not very high, safety is not an issue (thats what they say anyway), and its cheaper per mile than petrol or diesel, while retaining the almost the same engine performance with less emmisions than petrol or diesel.

The uncertainty of reliability and conversion costs?

 

[Howell]

You don't need to really recharge from a distance. If you have designated parking spaces for electric vehicles, when the car is parked, it wirelessly communicates with the recharging system at the parking spot. The recharging system has a probe that comes up from the ground, and connects to the vehicle. Charging then commences. If you were to get into the vehicle and turn the car on, the recharging unit would automatically disengage and close up under the ground if the charging sequence was not completed yet. If it was, it would have already disconnected on its own.

What I was trying to describe was for home use. I fear the amount of construction for infrastructure is too high for our solution. I was thinking of something like the Ghostbusters ghost capture device. You plug it into the wall or maybe into a transformer and leave the little ob in the floor. Most vehicle would be high enough to drive over it (save maybe that GT Pradeep has :wink: ) and charging would begin. I only meantioned the designated parking spot because my whole idea is to avoid touching the box as routine.

My idea is to have the installation so flexible and removable that it would be suitable for duplexes and similar housing situations and people would not have to leave it behind (or remove it at considerable expense) when they sell the house.

 

[Howell]

You plug it into the wall or maybe into a transformer and leave the little ob in the floor.

I'm not sure what an "ob" is but considering I was talking about Ghostbusters I think it fits. Maybe I meant box. I think I'm going to TM "ob".

 

[Howell]

I fear the amount of construction for infrastructure is too high for our solution.

Sigh. our=>your

 

[NRG = mc²]

As matter of fact, none of them are within my normal commute range. I rarely even go up to where those stations exist. Plus, there is only two of them, and the range of those LPG vehicles is not all that good.

Perhaps where you live, round here I would say about half of all petrol stations sell LPG. Its true that LPG cars consume more than their petrol counterparts but LPG is less than half the price of petrol.

The good thing with LPG that I forgot to mention is that you can turn back to regular unleaded at the flick of a switch, without even turning the engine off!

I don't think reliability is a problem as many taxis abroad use them, and as far as I know there are no mechanical changes involved with the engine, just a new ECU and some other basic changes - this is how they can run on regular fuel (and do so till the engine has reached operating temperature whereby it switches to gas automatically).

I think there are issues regarding extreme termperatures when the LPG will not burn properly, but thats what you have the petrol compatibility for

I believe conversion cost is approximately $1500 which can be recouped in a couple of years.

 

[Howell]

And just think, if you needed to you could top off at the grill.

 

[jtr1962]

I was thinking of some technology that could be embedded in the floor of the garage or maybe mounted to the garage wall that could recharge the vehicle from a distance. 18/6/3". Whatever need be the distance. But does such an phenomena exist to allow recharging from a distance.

You could probably have transformer or microwave coupling. The big problem with either scheme is that you lose quite a bit of power(at least 10% or 20%) in the transmission process. Additionally, such a device wouldn't take the form of a mat or anything relatively compact that can use a wall wart for power. In fact, an electric vehicle will need to be recharged from the same circuit as an electric oven. The battery holds at least a few dozen KW-hr. In order to recharge it overnight you need a power input of at least a few KW. Cost of a recharge at New York's electric prices of ~0.14/KW-hr might be $5 and a full charge might take you 80 to 100 miles. If gasoline costs $1.50/gallon then the operating costs per mile in NYC might be about the same as a 25 mpg car. I tend to think recharging via solar panels makes more sense in the long run. Of course, if you have electricity at 3 or 4 cents per KW-hr, an electric car makes perfect economic sense.

Regarding charging stations in parking lots and such, this is a good idea but a standard design needs to be worked out, and it needs to be tamper proof. I can imagine some jokester pulling the plug while you're at work and then you're stuck sitting there. Once the design is standardized, however, the consumer will probably benefit. Cost per KW-hr will be cheaper for a large user. This can be passed on to the consumer. Also, the parking station can charge at a rate of tens of KW if the car battery can charge that rapidly, making 1 hour or faster recharges possible. This wouldn't be possible with a typical home electrical service. Although most homes nowadays have 200-amp breakers, if every home on the block charged an electric car at a rate of 10 or 20 KW the substation would overload.

 

[Buck]

With the advent of solar powered electricty in neighborhoods and commercial areas, it would be necessary that all panels become anti-reflective. The reflection from those surfaces are blinding, which is not only annoying if it shines into your house from the neighbors roof, but also if the glare hits you on the road, you could easily lose sight and crash.

 

[Howell]

With the advent of solar powered electricty in neighborhoods and commercial areas, it would be necessary that all panels become anti-reflective. The reflection from those surfaces are blinding, which is not only annoying if it shines into your house from the neighbors roof, but also if the glare hits you on the road, you could easily lose sight and crash.

Ha, I thought you were going the way of communication with extra-terrestials or burning off the atmosphere from the inside or "magnifying glass-ing" a nearby moon.

 

[Buck]

"magnifying glass-ing" a nearby moon.

Why would I want to burn my butt with a solar panel?

 

[Fushigi]

It should be theoretically possible to charge a car from a distance by using suitable coils, but in practice would probably present a load of other problems, such as that of the coil's magnetic field for a start.

Try this: Parking places have either a permanent or rollup mat that covers the from 1/4 of the space. The left 3rd is +; the center is a control channel; right is -. When you put your car in Park or engage the parking brake, 3 probes descend from the car to engage the sections of the mat.

 

[CougTek]

Why would I want to burn my butt with a solar panel?

New and improved "fat burner".

 

[jtr1962]

Try this: Parking places have either a permanent or rollup mat that covers the from 1/4 of the space. The left 3rd is +; the center is a control channel; right is -. When you put your car in Park or engage the parking brake, 3 probes descend from the car to engage the sections of the mat.

Good idea except for one possible problem-the probes would have to be capable of taking a huge amperage, especially if 1 hour recharge was desired. Say you want to recharge at 25 KW input power. If the mat is, say 25V, you need 1000 amps! You can't have the mat any higher voltage because of the possibility someone might trip and touch both polarities at the same time, especially in the rain. Therefore, the mat scheme would only work for overnight recharges.

I'm thinking a better overall scheme for electric cars is to just embed high-frequency, high voltage cables under the road, perhaps in a special enclosure that doesn't need to get touched when roads are repaved(i.e. simliar to manholes but linear). The electric vehicles can get power via inductive pickup, and feed it back into the sytem as well via regenerative braking. You solve the charging problem because you only need to have a large enough battery to get you from home to the main arteries that have the cables. You can recharge your battery on the fly, or at home if it is close to drained. The smaller battery will be amenable to recharging via something like a car battery charger. Another good point about this is you eliminate the range, weight, and power problems of electric cars as they can get all the power they need from the cable. I guess there would have to be an upper legal limit on how much power a car can drain or in no time flat you'll have people modifying their vehicles with 500 hp motors. Other than that, though, I tend to think this scheme is the most cost-effective and universal. Once it is fully installed, there is no more reason why any vehicle should be fossil fuel powered.

 

[e_dawg]

Wouldn't there be significant losses in efficiency when you have many thousands of miles of wire carrying large amounts of current all over the place? And what about EMI issues? (health concerns, intereference with cellphones/AM, etc)

 

[Howell]

"magnifying glass-ing" a nearby moon.

Why would I want to burn my butt with a solar panel?

Maybe it's just me but sometime these things just happen.

 

[Howell]

Try this: Parking places have either a permanent or rollup mat that covers the from 1/4 of the space. The left 3rd is +; the center is a control channel; right is -. When you put your car in Park or engage the parking brake, 3 probes descend from the car to engage the sections of the mat.

I like that idea. jtr has a point about the shock hazzard though.

-----------------------
jtr, you may have the best solution for the next generation but it is too big a jump for the intermediate term. You keep trying to solve the problems of tommorow. I'm trying to build an electric car within the next five years. Seriously.

 

[jtr1962]

Wouldn't there be significant losses in efficiency when you have many thousands of miles of wire carrying large amounts of current all over the place? And what about EMI issues? (health concerns, intereference with cellphones/AM, etc)

Actually, the current won't be carried thousands of miles but likely only tens of miles. The current distribution problems are similar to those faced by electrified railways(which is what my idea is similar in concept to), and those have largely been solved. You just use very high voltage(~25 KV or more) and this is stepped down to a more useable value where it is needed. In this case 25KV never enters the car at all. Rather, substations convert it to whatever voltage is needed to drive the electronics that power the high frequency ac cables.

Regarding EMI issues, a car is basically a metal box, and hence a Faraday cage(same as a PC). Even when cars are largely made of composites a very thin metal foil shielding will suffice to protect the car interior from any EMI. The effect of EMI on humans is greatly exaggerated anyway thanks to the media, and EMI intensity falls off with distance². The damage only occurs with severe exposure over a long time period. In this case a person would have to stand in the street every single day for months or more. You wouldn't get any significant exposure changing a flat tire, for example. Remember that it is cost effective to electrify main arteries only. Residential streets where children play will be untouched, and cars will be under battery power there. If you live far from a main artery you just install a larger battery. The system is so neat in its simplicity I'm surprised nobody has ever publicly proposed it before. Forget diesels, forget hybrids, forget fuel cells. The R&D on those alone would probably pay for a complete system here, and you'll get rid of the hazards associated with fossil fuel use, both by burning it and by its distribution. This last part is not insignificant. All those tanker trucks make me nervous, especially in an age of terrorism. And suppose some terrorist group commandeers an oil tanker or an LPG tanker and decides to detonate it in New York harbor. That would make Hiroshima look like a firecracker.

 

[jtr1962]

jtr, you may have the best solution for the next generation but it is too big a jump for the intermediate term. You keep trying to solve the problems of tommorow. I'm trying to build an electric car within the next five years. Seriously.

Perhaps, but I'm kind of bothered that straight electrics are being largely overshadowed by hybrids or fuel cells, especially in light of ever improving battery technology and the fact that they would be an ideal car for urban areas. I can't for the life of me see why somebody who lives and drives in NYC would need a range of more than 100 miles, which is quite feasible with an electric car.

Interestingly, and it just occurred to me, this idea dovetails nicely with my other idea of driverless cars. The buried cable provides a marker that the car can track, and since the control of the car is already entirely electronic(except steering), it can be implemented in a very cost effective manner. The rest is just programming algorithms for various real world situations(admittedly not a trivial task but certainly feasible given the mount of computing power available for low cost these days). Of course, both don't have to be implemented together. Do the powered cable now, and develop the driverless concept to the point that it works well and the general public feels comfortable with it. My guess is that few people will miss driving plus insurance premiums will drop dramatically.

Anybody think I should start writing to newspapers and lawmakers regarding this whole idea? I think the general public would love it, especially the part about being able to give the middle finger to OPEC nations. :diablo: And you can even have the roadways lined with solar panels to supplement the electrical power requirements(or even fulfill them entirely on lightly traveled roads).

Let's get this sucker built! :mrgrn:

 

[mubs]

Anybody think I should start writing to newspapers and lawmakers regarding this whole idea?

No matter what, no matter how your idea is perceived, patent them first before you do anything else. I'm serious. I've had several ideas I did nothing about, and they've come to market. I could have been velly velly lich by now if I hadn't been (and continue to be) such a sloth.