Should we ban disposable batteries?

jtr1962

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Since we already have one "should we ban it thread" I figured it's time for another. Now our society makes a whole bunch of other, disposable junk I suppose I could pick on, such as one-use cameras, one-serving prepackaged meals, flashlights with no replaceable battery, etc. However, the one thing which has annoyed my for a long time are the racks of throw-away alkaline batteries at every store. 20 or even 10 years ago the rechargeable options admittedly were not that great, so only a few diehards like myself used them. However, today's rechargeables have conquered all the prior issues. Let's have a look at the common complaints people had against rechargeable, and how they no longer apply:

1) Rechargeables take too long to recharge. Well, it's always a good idea to have a charged set ready, but many won't do that. In response to this most chargers can charge a set of cells in two hours or less. Indeed, modern NiMH must be charged rapidly to properly detect the end of charge voltage depression. There even exist 15 minute chargers for those in a real hurry.

2) Rechargeables have a lower voltage (1.2V instead of 1.5V). This has always been a myth, but it is one which has kept many from even trying rechargeables. For whatever reason, the makers of Nicads and NiMH choose to label their cells with the average voltage during discharge, rather that the voltage hot off the charger, which is actually around 1.45 to 1.50 volts. Alkalines start out at 1.5V (actually 1.58V). They're considered fully discharged at 0.9V. Average voltage is 1.2V, same as rechargeables. Myth busted.

3) Rechargeables can explode, or are otherwise dangerous. No more so than alkalines. Lithium-ion can explode, but direct replacement AAAs, AAs, Cs, and Ds are always NiMH or Nicad. At worst they'll vent if overcharged. I've regularly had alkalines leak inside devices, but never rechargeables.

4) Rechargeables suffer from lower capacity. Now this was admittedly true years ago. It's no longer true. Under very moderate drains like a wall clock an alkaline may still hold a slight edge. In a flashlight or digicam or any other heavy load rechargeables win hands down. A AA alkaline which might be 2800 mAh at 1 milliamp will give less than half that at a moderate drain of 0.5A. A decent NiMH will give 2000 to 2500 mAh at the same current. The difference is even greater when you get past one amp. Alkalines just don't handle heavy drains gracefully.

5) Rechargeables self-discharge if not used. This was also admittedly a problem, but most devices which benefit from rechargeables will be used often enough to drain the batteries long before they self-discharge. The new Eneloops, and similar low-self discharge NiMH from other manufacturers, have solved even this problem. These cells have 85% of their initial charge after one year, 75% after two years. They can even be used in wall clocks.

6) Rechargeables are too expensive. While getting started admittedly requires an outlay of perhaps $25 to $50 for a decent charger and a few sets of cells, in the long run the economy of rechargeables can't be beat. That initial outlay will replace at least several hundred packs of alkalines. Besides the money saved on batteries, you'll also avoid spending gas buying batteries in an emergency.

The only problem is the general public is ignorant of many of the facts above. I think it's high time for a government education campaign, coupled with a ban on sales of disposables. Ever since the Eneloops came out, I just can't think of a valid reason to use disposable batteries any more. Even prior to that, self-discharge was the only real issue.
 

Bozo

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Eventually recharables won't charge or hold a charge and then need to be disposed of. After a few years of banned throw-aways, you will be back to where we are now.

Better recycling is the way to go.

Ban batteries...No

Bozo :joker:
 

jtr1962

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Eventually recharables won't charge or hold a charge and then need to be disposed of. After a few years of banned throw-aways, you will be back to where we are now.
Yes, but there will be far fewer of them to deal with, perhaps only one rechargeable battery per 500 alkalines. Also, many cities are putting recycling programs in place for rechargeable batteries. In NYC it's already against the law to throw away rechargeables. I'll also mention that the energy used to make those 500 alkalines which the rechargeable replaces creates fairly significant problems on its own. And then you have the energy used to transport all those alkalines to the store. That's also a ratio of 500:1 compared to rechargables. Seeing how the problem propagates down the line, the issue with disposable batteries is far more than just extra landfill.

I forgot to mention, one other problem which today's NiMH have solved is the cadmium issue. Nicads create a disposal hazard because they contain the heavy metal cadmium. Not so with NiMH.
 

ddrueding

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Down with the nanny-state!

But while we are on the subject, I need a AA and AAA charger that I can leave the batteries on; so they are ready whenever I need them. Having to remember to put them on and then take them off is too much work. Capacity for 4 AA and 4 AAA would be ideal, the AA are for a high-discharge device.
 

Will Rickards

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Where can I get these eneloops? I think the answer is in another thread but might as well consolidate the knowledge.

As for the ban... I just bought a pack of 20 duracell AA.
Kids toys go through them quite quickly... especially those plug in tv video games.
 

jtr1962

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Where can I get these eneloops? I think the answer is in another thread but might as well consolidate the knowledge.
You can get them here. $12.73 plus $4.99 shipping for 8 cells. Don't let the refurbished part turn you off. These are brand new cells which for whatever reason were opened and then returned. I bought 3 refurbished 8-packs. No problems at all.

As for the ban... I just bought a pack of 20 duracell AA.
Kids toys go through them quite quickly... especially those plug in tv video games.
Well, they'll go soon enough, and then if you buy the Eneloops you can see for yourself how much better rechargeables are.

ddrueding said:
Down with the nanny-state!
I generally agree except when someone else's decision impacts the planet I live on. The problem here isn't that the free market wouldn't get most people into rechargeables at this point. It probably would all other things being equal. However, things are not equal. A lot of misinformation and lack of information is used by Duracell et al to keep people buying disposable batteries. Let's face it, this is big business. Don't expect to see a large sign touting the advantages of Eneloops alongside the racks of alkalines any time soon unless it's mandated by law. In cases like this, as with lighting alternatives, it's largely up to advocacy groups and the government to see that consumers are properly informed. And to actually ban stuff that big business might want to sell if the available alternatives are better, but not as profitable.

But while we are on the subject, I need a AA and AAA charger that I can leave the batteries on; so they are ready whenever I need them. Having to remember to put them on and then take them off is too much work. Capacity for 4 AA and 4 AAA would be ideal, the AA are for a high-discharge device.
Try the eneloops. No need to leave them on the charger since they hold 85% of their charge after sitting a year. Anyway, having NIMH sitting in a charger for weeks with a trickle current is the worst thing for them. I wouldn't recommend it. However, both my LaCrosse BC-900 and my MH-C9000 do continually run a small current through the cells to keep them ready. The MH-C9000 is the more advanced of the chargers by far, but both give you capacity information so you know how your cells are performing.
 

LunarMist

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No f*cking way! There are far too many uses for primary batteries, which can often outlive the usefulness of the device at 3 -10 years. Lithium ion, nickel and other rechargeable cells are already used where appropriate. It is bad enough that entire devices are now rendered disposable due to the stupid, non-user-replaceable Li-ion cells.
 
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jtr1962

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No f*cking way! There are far too many uses for primary batteries, which can often outlive the usefulness of the device at 3 -10 years. Lithium ion, nickel and other rechargeable cells are already used where appropriate. It is bad enough that entire devices are now rendered disposable due to the stupid, non-user-replaceable Li-ion cells.
Minor point-I'm not referring here to batteries built into low-drain devices which often outlast the useful life of the device. I'm referring solely to the commodity AAAs, AAs, Cs, Ds, and 9Vs sold at retail stores. The heart of the problem is really those who use disposables for high-drain devices, buying them on practically a weekly basis. It's one thing to stick to alkalines for a wall clock where you might need to replace them every year or two. It's quite another to go through 20 sets of AAs powering your family's electronic toys each and every week. Devices like that are tailor made for rechargeables. My sister's inlaws spend $30 a week on batteries for their kid's toys. I think what a colossol waste this is, especially of money, but I don't see them often enough to try to educate them about rechargeables. It's people like that who we need to try and reach. Many here, and especially on CPF, are already sold on rechargeables where they make sense. Most of the general public lacks the information to make an informed decision, and they won't take the time to do the research.

Devices have non-standard form factor batteries, or non-replaceable batteries, are one of my pet peeves also. For example, all the flashlights using CR123s instead of AAAs or AAs. Until rechargeable 123s starting becoming cheap and common, I wouldn't even look at these lights.

Another of my pet peeves is watch batteries. Watches, especially digital LCD watches, can easily run off a built-in solar cell, even in just room light. The cell can recharge a small supercap to keep the watch going for days with no light whatsoever. Why then are watches still even made which require batteries? Ditto for calculators. I won't even buy a calculator unless it's solar power. There's just no need for batteries any more, primary or rechargeable, on small, low drain devices. I'll grant that these small batteries are not a big landfill issue, but the expense and bother of having to replace them periodically is a huge annoyance.
 

Fushigi

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We use batteries mostly for flashlights, wall clocks, and remote controls. For each of those applications the batteries easily last over a year. The only two things we have that go through batteries faster are my exercise bike (similar to this) and my VX Revolution mouse. The VX goes through about 3 to 5 AAs per year. More, kind of, as I take batteries that are failing in their normal job - can no longer turn the hands on a clock for instance - and use them in the VX to finish them off.

The bike uses 4 D cels and they last a few months. I'm disappointed in that but it's still not bad. Again, to keep batteries 'fresh' I swap them in from some of our emergency flashlights & put fresh batteries in the lights.

My city recycles regular batteries. As we have to package them separately they stand out. So I can easily say we go weeks and weeks between sending one or more batteries off. Our usage pattern might still benefit from rechargeables, but not by much.

For non-standard battery packs there's my digicam, our cell phones, and of course my laptop. All use Li-Ion and the batteries last for years. And there's nothing I can do about them.

What are watch batteries? :)
 

Bozo

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Our in-home security system uses a ton of batteries. They are changed once a year. A couple of years ago I tried the rechargables in them. They didn't last very long. One thing you don't want to happen is have a battery go dead at 2AM. The alarm system goes off. If you think a beeping smoke detector is bad, the alarm horn is made to be heard outside.
My Logitech MXLaser has a rechargable that can't be replaced. And for what I paid for the thing, I don't want to through it away, ever. It's my last Logitech device because of this.

Bozo :joker:
 

LOST6200

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The heart of the problem is really those who use disposables for high-drain devices, buying them on practically a weekly basis. It's one thing to stick to alkalines for a wall clock where you might need to replace them every year or two. It's quite another to go through 20 sets of AAs powering your family's electronic toys each and every week.

So that is common sense, that some peoploe will nto have. Relaly not possible to legistale that. ;)a
 

LOST6200

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Takl about ineffficent use of the CarbonZiNC. Remeber those humongous #6 1.5V dry cells they used to yuse in the old days? ;) Dead onse wer good for the projectiles or paperweights.
 

mubs

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I picked up the Eneloop combo at Costco yesterday:
8 x AA
4 x AAA
1 x charger
2 x 'AA' to 'C' size adapters
2 x 'AA' to 'D' size adapters

all in a nice carrying case for $26. Should have bought two of these instead of one.
 

Stereodude

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I picked up the Eneloop combo at Costco yesterday:
8 x AA
4 x AAA
1 x charger
2 x 'AA' to 'C' size adapters
2 x 'AA' to 'D' size adapters

all in a nice carrying case for $26. Should have bought two of these instead of one.
I've bought one for myself and one for my Dad. I love my Eneloops.
 

mubs

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DD: Costco hides them, you really have to look. At the Costco I got them from, there was a massive display of Duracell disposables. Way underneath, almost out of sight, were the Eneloops. The plastic case is an ink-blue, but most of the case is obscured with a cardboard jacket that's a cyan color. The tip-off is the handle, and the cable tie that prevents people from opening the case and nicking a battery or two. Don't give up and you'll find them.

I don't know when my batteries were made, but I popped a couple in a flashlight (my only means to test at this time) and the light was as bright as it is with the current alkalines in the flashlight. For rechargeables that were sitting in a box for god-knows-how-long, that's impressive.

I'll be buying more AAs elsewhere - Amazon and Thomas Distributing are the likely candidates.

Don't need another charger since I got one with the Eneloops from Costco, have another two chargers at home, and will be buying the dandy Maha MH-C9000 can-fly-a-747, land-a-spaceship-on-the-moon and satisfy a nymphomaniac, all at the same time charger.
 

ddrueding

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It looks like they have some neat modes for conditioning and "forming" batteries...I have no idea what that means.

I just want a charger that will charge the battery and then stop when they are full, without me having to watch and remove them.
 

jtr1962

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It looks like they have some neat modes for conditioning and "forming" batteries...I have no idea what that means.
Forming means charging the battery at 0.1C for 16 hours. The purpose is to evenly distribute the electrolyte so that the battery has maximum capacity and voltage, and also to restore batteries which are performly poorly. You can read about it in the MH-C9000 instructions.

Since the MH-C9000 charger defaults to charge mode at 1000 mA if you don't program it you can also use it for the unattended charging you mentioned. When the batteries are full, it will stop charging, then send through a small current to keep them topped off.
 

jtr1962

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Are these fancy chargers hard to use? Are they any better than the charger that comes with the eneloop package at costco?
They're faily easy to use once you read the instructions. They're better in that you can find bad cells, or match cells for capacity if you'll be using them together in the same device. I've been capacity testing my cells for years using my own setups, and writing the capacity on the cell with indelible marker. With these new chargers I don't have to make test rigs any more. I've found that the BC-900 tends to give somewhat optimistic capacity results (roughly 5% to 10% too high) but the MH-C9000 is practically dead on.
 

mubs

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jtr, how good/bad is the charger that comes with the Eneloops at Costco? I noticed that its charging rate is 300ma for AA. There is concern that the low current will not result in a reliable signal to stop charging, resulting in overcharging that is destructive to the cell. What says you?
 

jtr1962

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jtr, how good/bad is the charger that comes with the Eneloops at Costco? I noticed that its charging rate is 300ma for AA. There is concern that the low current will not result in a reliable signal to stop charging, resulting in overcharging that is destructive to the cell. What says you?
That is definitely a concern because you need to charge at 0.3C or better to get a reliable end-of-charge signal. 300 mA is only 0.15C. That being said, the Eneloops are high quality cells, so the charger might still be able to pick up the slight voltage depression near the end of charge. Also, 300 mA is low enough not to severely overheat the cells. Remember that the Eneloops can withstand 0.1C (200 mA) indefinitely. This isn't to say that it's a good idea, but it means 300 mA should probably also be OK if maybe the charger misses the end of charge, and you don't notice till the next day. Just don't let the cells sit on the charger for days. It might not cause venting, but it will probably cause degradation.
 

Stereodude

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jtr, how good/bad is the charger that comes with the Eneloops at Costco? I noticed that its charging rate is 300ma for AA. There is concern that the low current will not result in a reliable signal to stop charging, resulting in overcharging that is destructive to the cell. What says you?
It probably works adequately. It seems unlikely that they would ship a charger that doesn't work with their batteries.
 

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I'm impressed to see Duracell recently increasing advertising of their rechargeable NiMH batteries.

With the exception of a spare battery for my Canon XTi, I haven't bought a disposable battery for years. I was utterly amazed by how easy it was to switch from Alkaline to NiMH.

Beside the small initial expense (pays off fairly quickly), I see no reason not to replace alkaline AAA/AA batteries with NiMH. I haven't bought a C or a D sized battery for ages, so I can't comment on them.. but I absolutely love AA and AAA NiMH batteries.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to convince others of the same. About 2-3 years back I bought a charger and a few packs of batteries for my father. Unfortunately, I don't think they were ever used... I don't think he could get past the notion that they were some how not as good as what he was already using.

I also tried to convert a few extended family members, but I don't think they go through quite as many batteries anymore so they were more concerned with the expense of purchasing a charger and a couple sets of batteries (these are people who probably buy one pack of alkalines a year, plus whatever may be needed around christmas)

I've also heard some fud from some workers at a camera shop, saying I couldn't use rechargeable in an autowinder because of the lower voltage. (Thanks for the explanation of the ratings jtr)

Unfortunately I think some people are just resistant to change... which I why I'm glad to see more advertising about rechargeables. Hopefully it will increase awareness of the current technology and lead to less waste.
 

Howell

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Personally I'm resistant to introducing more management tasks to my life. Although I've not bought any yet I'm happy about the eneloops. I wonder if these Duracell rechargables I saw recently are eneloop like.
 

Will Rickards

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Well for the eneloops if you buy them from thomas distributing they were giving away the adaptors. So you could use the AA for D or C. So I'm not exactly surprised given the stated capacity.
 

jtr1962

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Is there any substance to this allegation?

..."The "D" cell actually turned out to be just an "AA" cell inside a larger casing"...
That's fairly well known, actually, and something which has been going on since the days of NiCad. IMHO, things like this shouldn't even be allowed. They're misleading to the consumer. It really wouldn't surprise if it's done on purpose to keep consumers using disposable batteries. Now if Energizer wants to sell C or D size adaptors for their AA cells for a reasonable price that's fine. At least the consumer knows they're really using a AA cell inside a larger wrapper. However, to intentionally make cells which are mostly air, and then charge nearly the price of a genuine D-cell? That's just plain stupid, and disgusting.
 

LunarMist

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FWIW, most of the consumer NiCd C and D batteries contained sub-C cells. The early ones I got around 1968 had only 1.0 AH of capacity, barely enough for 15 minutes of vibrations.
 

jtr1962

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FWIW, most of the consumer NiCd C and D batteries contained sub-C cells. The early ones I got around 1968 had only 1.0 AH of capacity, barely enough for 15 minutes of vibrations.
I actually have a few of those dating from the late 1970s, IIRC. They still hold a charge believe it or not. NiCd may contain toxic heavy metals, but it can't be beat for robustness.
 

e_dawg

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Damn the eneloops are hard to find and expensive in Canada. The Source by Circuit City is $60 for 4 AA's + charger. Other places I've looked at online cost a fortune to ship ($12-25 S&H) relative to the value of the batteries.
 

udaman

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I actually have a few of those dating from the late 1970s, IIRC. They still hold a charge believe it or not. NiCd may contain toxic heavy metals, but it can't be beat for robustness.

Not true, RC style Ni-MH are just as robust.

You don't have Costco in Canada?
Meaning near by, as CostCo is all over Canada.

We do, but I am not a member. Not sure if they have eneloops and if so, what their price is...

Order from the source jtr listed then, decent enough price.

That is definitely a concern because you *need* to charge at 0.3C or better to get a reliable end-of-charge signal. 300 mA is only 0.15C. That being said, the Eneloops are high quality cells, so the charger might still be able to pick up the slight voltage depression near the end of charge. Also, 300 mA is low enough not to severely overheat the cells. Remember that the Eneloops can withstand 0.1C (200 mA) indefinitely. This isn't to say that it's a good idea, but it means 300 mA should probably also be OK if maybe the charger misses the end of charge, and you don't notice till the next day. Just don't let the cells sit on the charger for days. It might not cause venting, but it will probably cause degradation.

Couldn't be true jtr, because then Maha's 11+amp/hr D-cells would never charge on their old chargers or others when those cells were introduced. Where are you getting your 'facts'?

At any rate, jtr is too much of a techo zealot (LED's need I say more ;) ) to be able to comprehend in a rational manner (hmm, just like other things ;) ) what makes of a useful replacement for one technology over another.

Enloops and now virtually all of the major battery makers (Enegerizer has them) have a version of the lower loss Ni-MH. However, for the same reason people that can't be bothered to figure out how to program a VCR (my mother has problems even remembering how to operate her cell phone in pure manual mode...too many buttons to push), 95% of AA/AAA battery users are *NOT* going to check how many hours they have left a cell in a charger. They will stick it on the charger, just like a cell phone, and pull the cell off *when* and *whenever* they need to. If the cell is not designed to operate in such a fool proof simple manner, than it's worthless as a replacement to 95% of the general population who couldn't give a hoot about all the things that excite jtr or other techogeeks...plain and simple.

And where are the enloops or bretheren in 9v, C, & D cell capacities. Surely you don't think anyone (excepting yourselves ;) ) will find 'adapters' for C&D acceptable when a standard disposable alkaline D cell has 11+ amp/hr capacity, and silly AA enloops are merely 2amp/hr...absurd!

When rechargeable technology surpasses disposable on *all* performance/ease of use/no brainer...even "Paris & Brittany/J. Simpson are fail safe in using it", parameters, then talk about banning dispoables. Until then let the consumer decide what is best for them.

In Canada, enloops should cost the same as in the USA, they get stock from the same part of the world. However, my local CostCo ran out of stock on enloops a ~month ago, they appeared to only have one palatte and that was it. As with many 'specials' items like that enloop 'package', it may never return to Costco.
 

ddrueding

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...95% of AA/AAA battery users are *NOT* going to check how many hours they have left a cell in a charger. They will stick it on the charger, just like a cell phone, and pull the cell off *when* and *whenever* they need to. If the cell is not designed to operate in such a fool proof simple manner, than it's worthless as a replacement to 95% of the general population who couldn't give a hoot...

This is the most important thing. It's fine that not charing completely or discharging completely aren't optimal, the question is: how tolerant are the batteries to this kind of treatment? Will they die 25% sooner? 50%? Worrying about batteries is not high on my list.
 
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