Should we ban disposable batteries?

timwhit

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
5,278
Location
Chicago, IL
This is the most important thing. It's fine that not charing completely or discharging completely aren't optimal, the question is: how tolerant are the batteries to this kind of treatment? Will they die 25% sooner? 50%? Worrying about batteries is not high on my list.

Why couldn't a timer be integrated into the charger. Set the timer to the appropriate charge time and it will turn off after however many hours you set. Maybe some of the charges already have them, but I bet none of the cheap ones do.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,379
Location
Flushing, New York
This is the most important thing. It's fine that not charing completely or discharging completely aren't optimal, the question is: how tolerant are the batteries to this kind of treatment? Will they die 25% sooner? 50%? Worrying about batteries is not high on my list.
They're actually pretty robust. The main thing to worry about is reverse-charging. This occurs if a device is using several cells in series, and one of the cells has less capacity or less charge than the others. Voltage will first drop to 0, and then reverse as the other cells continue to supply current. Usually this isn't a big problem because by the time one of your cells goes into reverse charge the total voltage from all the cells will already be enough for the device to no longer work properly. Also, many devices now have electronics to shut them down when the total battery voltage falls under a certain value. Remember that reverse charge can happen with alkalines as well, and the result can be a leaking cell. That's why devices are starting to have low voltage shutdowns. Even when they don't, most consumer devices have 4 or fewer cells in series. By the time one goes into reverse charge the total voltage is usually low enough for the user to decide to change the batteries, regardless of battery technology.

Other than reverse charging, letting cells fall close to zero volts probably isn't the best thing, but most bounce back from it pretty well. Fact is the biggest killer of today's rechargeables is heat from overcharging. Any decently-designed smart charger will keep that from happening, and also makes the charging process pretty fool-proof. Put the cell on, when the light turns green it's ready. You can usually even leave it on the charger for a few days if you forget to take it out with no harm. Fact is today's rechargeables and chargers are no harder to use than disposables. I'll even say they're easier in that if your batteries die and you have no replacements handy, popping them in a charger is way easier (and cheaper) than running to the store to buy fresh cells. This is doubly true in areas where stores aren't within easy walking distance.

udaman said:
And where are the enloops or bretheren in 9v, C, & D cell capacities. Surely you don't think anyone (excepting yourselves :wink: ) will find 'adapters' for C&D acceptable when a standard disposable alkaline D cell has 11+ amp/hr capacity, and silly AA enloops are merely 2amp/hr...absurd!
They're here but still a bit pricey. 9V is on the way fairly soon also from what I hear. I'll admit to being a bit surprised that anyone would make low-self discharge cells in C or D sizes due to the relatively low volume, but it appears they have. I'll even go out on a limb and say that I think eventually all NiMH will be low-self discharge. The reason they aren't already is because of the 10% or 15% capacity penalty. I'm sure that problem will be solved, if indeed it's even a problem for most people at all now (after about 2 weeks of self-discharge 2500 mAh cells have less capacity left than 2000 mAh Eneloops). Eneloops and their derivatives take one big management task out of using rechargeables-having to top off your cells if you haven't used the device for a while.
 

e_dawg

Storage Freak
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,903
Location
Toronto-ish, Canada
Order from the source jtr listed then, decent enough price.

I can find no such deal at that link. Other barriers include: Amazon.com and most Amazon marketplace vendors simply do not ship electronics to Canada, and shipping cost from the US is usually $15-25.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,379
Location
Flushing, New York
I can find no such deal at that link. Other barriers include: Amazon.com and most Amazon marketplace vendors simply do not ship electronics to Canada, and shipping cost from the US is usually $15-25.
The prices went up on Amazon. As for shipping, first-class international to Canada would be less then $10 (I just checked on usps.com), so it would be more cost-effective for someone in the US to buy them from Costco, and ship them to you. If I were a member of Costco I'd gladly do that but I'm not.
 

time

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
4,932
Location
Brisbane, Oz
Current problem in Oz is chargers. Believe it or not, I've been unable to find anything useful that can charge AA/AAA in 1-2 hours. 15 minutes, yes, but I'd like the batteries to last longer than 3 months.

This has come about because my existing chargers (including a Sanyo) have died. Many chargers are nearly useless with >2000mAh batteries (thanks to the timed safety cutoff).
 

Howell

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
4,740
Location
Chattanooga, TN
Current problem in Oz is chargers. Believe it or not, I've been unable to find anything useful that can charge AA/AAA in 1-2 hours. 15 minutes, yes, but I'd like the batteries to last longer than 3 months.

This has come about because my existing chargers (including a Sanyo) have died. Many chargers are nearly useless with >2000mAh batteries (thanks to the timed safety cutoff).

http://shop.mahaenergy.com/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=411
 

LunarMist

I can't believe I'm a Fixture
Joined
Feb 1, 2003
Messages
17,497
Location
USA
Well for the eneloops if you buy them from thomas distributing they were giving away the adaptors. So you could use the AA for D or C. So I'm not exactly surprised given the stated capacity.

Except that Thomas-Distributing sells some used batteries. :(
 

LunarMist

I can't believe I'm a Fixture
Joined
Feb 1, 2003
Messages
17,497
Location
USA
Somebody had opened them obviously and used them. Returned batteries are not cool. :(
 

mubs

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Nov 22, 2002
Messages
4,908
Location
Somewhere in time.
Their customer service is really good. You should call and tell them. I'm sure they'll address the issue.
 

Will Rickards

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
2,012
Location
Here
Website
willrickards.net
Any new developments in battery world?
I'm about to pull the trigger on buying an MH-C9000 and 8 sanyo AA eneloops.
These wiimotes are power hungry. And I thought about getting the nyko stand charger but after seeing it in person, I think I'll just use the eneloops in a regular charger.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,379
Location
Flushing, New York
Any new developments in battery world?
I'm about to pull the trigger on buying an MH-C9000 and 8 sanyo AA eneloops.
Go ahead and buy it. I don't see anything much better than either the MH-C9000 or the Eneloops on the horizon. The MH-C9000 is a great charger. There may or may not be a bump in Eneloop capacity this year. Even if there were, it would probably only be to 2100 mAh, a mere 5%. I think NiMH development has more or less run its course as far as new developments and capacity increases. I haven't seen any reliable cells much greater than about 2100 mAh real (not advertised) capacity. Because I feel NiMH has reached close to its pinnacle, I had a friend pick me up the Eneloop/charger combo at Costco a few weeks ago. Don't need another charger, but I love the Eneloops.

What about these maha powerex imedion batteries? They seem to be maha's version of the eneloop. Are they any good?
Maha Powerex have a pretty decent customer satisfaction rating. I still think they fall a bit short on their advertised ratings. According to testing, the Powerex 2500s came in at around 2300. Don't know about the imedions. I do know that low-self discharge cells from other manufacturers besides Sanyo are slightly higher in capacity but also self-discharge somewhat faster. There's always going to be that trade-off
 

udaman

Wannabe Storage Freak
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
1,209
Go ahead and buy it. I don't see anything much better than either the MH-C9000 or the Eneloops on the horizon. The MH-C9000 is a great charger. There may or may not be a bump in Eneloop capacity this year. Even if there were, it would probably only be to 2100 mAh, a mere 5%. I think NiMH development has more or less run its course as far as new developments and capacity increases. I haven't seen any reliable cells much greater than about 2100 mAh real (not advertised) capacity. Because I feel NiMH has reached close to its pinnacle, I had a friend pick me up the Eneloop/charger combo at Costco a few weeks ago. Don't need another charger, but I love the Eneloops.


Maha Powerex have a pretty decent customer satisfaction rating. I still think they fall a bit short on their advertised ratings. According to testing, the Powerex 2500s came in at around 2300. Don't know about the imedions. I do know that low-self discharge cells from other manufacturers besides Sanyo are slightly higher in capacity but also self-discharge somewhat faster. There's always going to be that trade-off

I do, C & D low discharge cells from Accupower (not as highly rated as other brands, but Sanyo ain't doing them right now, neither is Maha...though I'd expect Maha will in the future). All I can say, is it's about time! Now all we need is a 9v transistor radio size, and we're good to go-though I'd prefer a lithium poly in that size if I could have a universal charger for all of these sizes and chemistries.

http://thomasdistributing.com/shop/...22_141.html?osCsid=11i7k67r38pacn7dr90bkpib03


On another note, I thought jtr was worried about his carbon footprint, no car and the like. Why buy enloops with a charger you don't need, as there is a penalty to pay in carbon foot print (which negates your LED Christmas lights, btw) for it's manufacture. Just get the loose cells that cost more/cell at CostCo, which I mentioned in another thread post.

Better yet, check jtr's link above...details have changed! An Amazon affiliated store has the 8 pack of AA enloops for $15, buy two of them and you qualify for FREE shipping(USA only). Sign up for an Amazon MasterCard credit card...with no annual fee, which you could just cancel a month later, and get $30 off your 1st purchase at checkout, making those 16 cells cost you NOTHING :). Which means that with the $30 savings, jtr could have spent that saved money on getting $25 worth of dim sum takeout in Queens for New Years :(

and for another $5 stopped by the new local Traders Joe's in Queens, and bought a bottle of TJ's 2006 "TBD" (to be determined ;) ) Zinfandel, which is actually a blend with a small amount of Petit Sirah in it, @$5 it is a bargain...I like it, lush, soft, jammy ripe spicy fruit that would go well with some of those deep fried dim sum items or any other BBQ of any cusine...if you ask for the right kind of sweet/sour BBQ sauce to go with it- Tim Shun Soy (phonetically it's like that, and with my cold virus a few weeks ago, I was almost speaking with a Chinese accent that the cashiers could understand :p! I will scan up the written Chinese characters if you like, always best, unless you have a cold virus, my normal speaking voice sounds too 'foreign' to them, they just give me a confused stare, lol). *note* Chinese sounds, not to mention numerous dialects, etc is the most difficult language to learn, 6 main pronunciation sounds for similar words, pronounced incorrectly, means entirely different word, which gets a confused look from the native speaking recipient. The "Tim" above sounds/is pronounced as something 1/2 way between Tim & Pim...not easy to duplicate for a non-native speaker.

Of course, sweet-sour sauce is kind of like mustard, there are an infinite variations, some taste better than others...matter of personal preferences; and most dim sum restaurants in So. Cal area have a sweet-sour sauce I don't care for, too strong, too bitter/sour, too much vinegar, etc.
 

Will Rickards

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
2,012
Location
Here
Website
willrickards.net
I bought the MH-C9000 and 8 maha imedion cells from thomas distributing.
Amazon was out of stock on the 8 pack of eneloops, otherwise I would have bought those.
 

Will Rickards

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
2,012
Location
Here
Website
willrickards.net
So I expected a bit more of a manual than a fold out piece of paper with the charger. Also it makes this high pitched eeeeee in regular intervals. Kind of annoying. It did positively identify one of my older suspect cells as bad.
 

udaman

Wannabe Storage Freak
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
1,209
Can't find any good deals on low self-discharging batteries these days. CostCo doesn't regularly stock Sanyo's, but now Circuit City (haven't been in to a Best Buy store in ages), and other stores that carry AA NiMH rechargeable are starting to stock these newer LD batts, Bed & Bath national chain has the Duracell (yes, Duracell LD AA's now, if you get lucky and get one of the rare 20% off your entire order coupon in the mail, then that would be the best deal). I can get the Rayovac's (think they used to have them at Walgreens, though I haven't been into one of those pharmacy stores in ions) @Ochard Supply Hardware in California @$10/4pack, go in when they have a sales tax free weekend, it's my lowest cost, as I don't have to pay for shipping as I would with an online source.

Thomas Distributing is now carrying the branded name Delkin 2300ma AA's but haven't seen a test on them, capacity v. retention of charge.

This site tested 4 so far, looks like Rayovac is the clear choice of those:

@2300+ ma for their 2100ma labeled AA.

But then all of these seem to have much lower retention of charge that advertised, so it would seem the load on the batteries, what device you have them idle inside, might be a factor???

http://www.rechargeable-battery-rev...lf-discharge-aa-nimh-battery-performance.html

Storage test after 3 months is not looking so good. Hate to see how much charge is still there at the end of a year.

http://www.rechargeable-battery-rev...discharge-aa-nimh-battery-self-discharge.html

If rate of decay was linear, then @1yr there would be only around 20% remaining, which would for all purposes mean they were dead, mostly useless after one year. Not what we are looking for as a replacement for disposables. needing to remember to recharge them = high maintenance, like some women I know :p .

You really need 75% retention @1yr, and at least 50% out to 2yrs, for the public to embrace these as a general replacement for far less expensive disposables. There are some uses where you'd be recharging batteries on a regular basis, but too many others that are occasional use devices where standard disposables have a much longer shelf life of being ready when you are (assuming they don't leak and fail long before than ;) ).
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,745
Location
Horsens, Denmark
How big a solar panel would you need on these to keep them topped off? Of course this wouldn't work when they were in a drawer, but a little panel on the bottom of the remote control might work.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
Can't find any good deals on low self-discharging batteries these days.
The Sanyo Eneloop's are the best, and they're still available at Costco, at least they are in Michigan. One store has the $25.99 8AA, 4AAA charger pack. The other has the 6AA, 4AAA $18.99 pack. They both sold them out before and have since gotten more in stock.

Some of the Duracell "precharged" cells are Sanyo's. If they're made in Japan they're Sanyo's.
 

timwhit

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
5,278
Location
Chicago, IL
The Sanyo Eneloop's are the best, and they're still available at Costco, at least they are in Michigan. One store has the $25.99 8AA, 4AAA charger pack. The other has the 6AA, 4AAA $18.99 pack. They both sold them out before and have since gotten more in stock.

Some of the Duracell "precharged" cells are Sanyo's. If they're made in Japan they're Sanyo's.

Is this the same thing?

Not as good of price, but not terrible. Is there anywhere else to get it for less?
 

timwhit

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
5,278
Location
Chicago, IL
Yes, that's it.

That price is pretty crappy. You might want to take a look at this thread.

That looks like the same price as eBay after I pay shipping from greenonlineproducts.com. I can only get free shipping from them if I order over $40 worth of batteries. Otherwise it's $10 extra for shipping. Which would bring my total to either $40 or $42 depending if I qualify as a "member," which I'm not.

I guess I could order the pack and another package of AA's, but I think I would be fine with the batteries that come in the pack. If I'm mistaken about the price let me know.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
If you sign in to their site (anyone can create an account) you can see the lower prices, but you do need to buy >$60 to get free shipping.

You can also get an extra 5% off using the code in that thread too.
 

Howell

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
4,740
Location
Chattanooga, TN
How big a solar panel would you need on these to keep them topped off? Of course this wouldn't work when they were in a drawer, but a little panel on the bottom of the remote control might work.

Do you rest your remote controls face down too?
 

timwhit

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
5,278
Location
Chicago, IL
I found a friend that was also interested in the pack, so I ordered 2 and got free shipping and the 5% off. Pretty good deal I think. Not quite as good as Costco, but I don't have a membership there anyways.
 

Bozo

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 12, 2002
Messages
4,396
Location
Twilight Zone
I found a friend that was also interested in the pack, so I ordered 2 and got free shipping and the 5% off. Pretty good deal I think. Not quite as good as Costco, but I don't have a membership there anyways.
You can order most items from Costco online, without a membership.

Bozo :joker:
 

timwhit

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
5,278
Location
Chicago, IL
From my brief search I don't think that Costco offers those batteries on their website. They have some Duracell NiMH, but they are pretty expensive.

Thanks for the info about being able to order without a membership, that will come in handy in the future.
 

Bozo

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 12, 2002
Messages
4,396
Location
Twilight Zone
But you'll pay more, plus the Eneloop batteries aren't available online.

I have always found the prices to be the same for the items I was looking for. ( I am a member). With the price of gas, I have been using online ordering a lot more.

Bozo :joker:
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
I have always found the prices to be the same for the items I was looking for. ( I am a member). With the price of gas, I have been using online ordering a lot more.
I meant that non member have to pay a surcharge when they order from Costco's website, not that Costco's prices are higher on the website.
 

Bozo

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 12, 2002
Messages
4,396
Location
Twilight Zone
I meant that non member have to pay a surcharge when they order from Costco's website, not that Costco's prices are higher on the website.

Hmmm...Maybe I should be paying less. I have never entered my membership number when I ordered online. Duh

Bozo :joker:
 

udaman

Wannabe Storage Freak
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
1,209
$42.98, incl shipping for 20 of what I presume are labeled as 2200mah AA hybrid cells from Pro Power (oddly enough, when you go to the Accessory Genie website, the same 20 are $5 more?)

Pro Power 2200mah LSD AA

Get an amazon visa card, get instant $30 credit, price for 20 of these cells comes out to $13, not bad, lower than any other brand I could find---seems like there are dozens now, probably all made by just a few Chinese manufacturers. Did a quick search of CPF, no hits on these 'off' brand cells.


http://www.accessorygenie.com/SearchResult.aspx?categoryID=630

LOL, "professional series" 2700mah standard NiMH with "golden" contacts (not 24k gold mind you, just golden color :p ?)

http://www.accessorygenie.com/detail.aspx?ID=6661

Pro Power for the Pro Photographer

...so do they have a consumer line of cells for n00b photogs :D
 

LunarMist

I can't believe I'm a Fixture
Joined
Feb 1, 2003
Messages
17,497
Location
USA
The Eneloop cells are fine - no need to mess around with bargain brands.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
The Eneloop cells are fine - no need to mess around with bargain brands.
They're one of the better cells out there. Low self discharge plus low internal resistance and ability to hold their voltage under a high current load. They're pretty unique batteries.
 
Top