Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Buck, we have to get you a copy of Hiren's BootCD. Every Diagnostic tool known to man is on that thing, and it's updated monthly. Very quickly eliminates the need for a floppy.
Simple business PC
- Thread starter Adcadet
- Start date
Buck, we have to get you a copy of Hiren's BootCD. Every Diagnostic tool known to man is on that thing, and it's updated monthly. Very quickly eliminates the need for a floppy.
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
Looking at some of the Socket 754 hardware available to me, I could see assembling a system like this for less:
CPU: SDA3000BXBOX*
MB: GA-K8N51GMF-RH
RAM: KVR400X64C3A/1G
CASE: Antec NSK4400/380WPSU
FDD: D359M3BLACK
HDD: WD800JD
DVD: Pioneer DVR-111DBK
MONITOR: Aopen F2905 19" LCD
KEY/MOUSE: Wireless/Optical MS Set
SPEAKERS: Logitech X-120e
[size=-2]*My previous estimate above uses the SDA3000BXBOX when it should the SDA3000CNBOX[/size]
CPU: SDA3000BXBOX*
MB: GA-K8N51GMF-RH
RAM: KVR400X64C3A/1G
CASE: Antec NSK4400/380WPSU
FDD: D359M3BLACK
HDD: WD800JD
DVD: Pioneer DVR-111DBK
MONITOR: Aopen F2905 19" LCD
KEY/MOUSE: Wireless/Optical MS Set
SPEAKERS: Logitech X-120e
[size=-2]*My previous estimate above uses the SDA3000BXBOX when it should the SDA3000CNBOX[/size]
ddrueding
Fixture
I've een using wireless keyboard and mice for years, they have only let me down once. The lack of desk clutter and significant additional freedom of movement in a wireless mouse is certainly worth it. 1GB of RAM is absolutely worth it for anyone; even just Windows XP and Firefox run better with more than 512MB. This is the world of broadband and iTunes; everyone needs speakers and a decent-sized hard drive.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
1GB RAM is essential.
Wireless keyboards are unreliable and/or a PITA. Speakers are usually built into an LCD, and that's as much sound as anyone needs in an office.
Wireless keyboards are unreliable and/or a PITA. Speakers are usually built into an LCD, and that's as much sound as anyone needs in an office.
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
Speakers in an office is a sure way to annoy the hell out of fellow coworkers. They make headphones for a reason.
ddrueding
Fixture
I suppose a differentiation should be made between "office computer" and "workstation". In my mind; an office computer is the computer in a small/home office. It needs to be able to handle everything a small business needs; including file storage and a backup mechanism. A workstation on the other hand is a terminal where a drone does their 9-5 thing. It's best if it doesn't have any floppy/optical drives at all, and since (ideally) no data will be stored on it at all, the smallest HDD available will be fine. I typically spec these with small 2.5" HDDs to reduce heat and power consumption; I have spec'ed them out with CF cards for hard drives.
A workstation with speakers is a recipie for disaster.
A workstation with speakers is a recipie for disaster.
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
ddrueding said:
Exactly. Speakers, wireless/optical keyboard/mouse and extra memory make a world of difference for a home/office machine. I haven't had any problems with Microsoft wireless peripherals. The speakers that come with LCDs are terrible. Home/office users like to listen to music, sometimes pretty loud -- it motivates them. These are hard working individuals that will be in their office (den, garage) at midnight, in their pajamas, with music blaring while they update their books. Many times accompanied by a glass of wine. Now, if the customer opts to go with no speakers, more savings to them.
Adcadet
Storage Freak
That's why I love this place! Good conversations, and debates backed with solid facts and well-reasoned opinions, all in a collegial environment.
Now, what happens if I ask about buying a cheap HP desktop, with some Sony peripherals with a WD hard drive?
Adcadet
Storage Freak
Sorry for not checking in earlier. I was out on the interview trail and taking one of our licensing exams. I just talked with the business owners and got some clarification: owner #1 wants a PC in the office because he feels they need to get modern, and checking a few things online will save them some minor hassle. Owner #2 is much more frugal and thinks the old way of doing things is fine. Owner #2 generally wins these arguments for at least a while, since they sleep together and Owner #1 is a guy. "A while" has now been over a year, and they could decide to go either way but they're thinking that they should put in a PC in the next year (2007). The business is growing so it's hard to predict exactly what it will be used for. Will Owner #2 start doing the books at work instead of at home on her decent PC that I built years ago (Barton 2500, 512 ram, very basic ATi video card, etc)? Hard to say.
In another twist, Owner #1 has finally decided that the old Gateway P2-266/192 is just too old and slow. He wants a new computer, again sometime in 2007. He has a decent 19" CRT, so I don't think a new monitor is needed right now. He basically does office stuff (Word, Excel, maybe Access, PDFs), web browsing (finally switched to Firefox!), and he listens to some online radio (old shortwave radiofan from the 1950s discovered streaming radio from around the world. He loves the BBC and in any given week will listen/read news from at least 3 continents - cool!). He's not an audiofile by any means, so I think a cheap integrated sound card and the old speakers he currently uses will be fine. I really think a very basic office PC will be fine for him, as he's really not a demanding computer user.
In another twist, Owner #1 has finally decided that the old Gateway P2-266/192 is just too old and slow. He wants a new computer, again sometime in 2007. He has a decent 19" CRT, so I don't think a new monitor is needed right now. He basically does office stuff (Word, Excel, maybe Access, PDFs), web browsing (finally switched to Firefox!), and he listens to some online radio (old shortwave radiofan from the 1950s discovered streaming radio from around the world. He loves the BBC and in any given week will listen/read news from at least 3 continents - cool!). He's not an audiofile by any means, so I think a cheap integrated sound card and the old speakers he currently uses will be fine. I really think a very basic office PC will be fine for him, as he's really not a demanding computer user.
Adcadet
Storage Freak
Thank you for the suggestion. Why not the Sempron 64 2800+ (AM2) for $44 and save $12? Is there really a difference between the 2800 and 3200 for such a basic PC?
Adcadet
Storage Freak
Would anybody see anything wrong with either the basic office PC or the basic home PC being made of some recycled parts:
- MSI K8T Neo (Socket 754, onboard sound, LAN)
- Newcastle A64 3000
- 512 MB RAM running fairly aggressive timings
(yes, that's currently my system which I'm not sure what to do with once I finally decide to take the Core 2 Duo plunge)
- MSI K8T Neo (Socket 754, onboard sound, LAN)
- Newcastle A64 3000
- 512 MB RAM running fairly aggressive timings
(yes, that's currently my system which I'm not sure what to do with once I finally decide to take the Core 2 Duo plunge)
ddrueding
Fixture
I looked at the price difference ($12) and couldn't help myself. Will the user you just described tell the difference? No. But, if they look at the spec, and compare the big number at the top (3200+) to the big number at the top of other computers (e.g. 3.0Ghz) that $12 makes it look like a much faster computer.
Your recycled parts look like a fine start for a business machine. As an interesting sidenote, that is the same motherboard/processor/RAM that I put in my game center over 3 years ago; I've since doubled the RAM but they are still going strong!
Your recycled parts look like a fine start for a business machine. As an interesting sidenote, that is the same motherboard/processor/RAM that I put in my game center over 3 years ago; I've since doubled the RAM but they are still going strong!
There are issues with using recycled parts: It's against the law unless you sell the machine as used. That means, you have to be very clear to your clients, that the machine is not new and my history is that most people, unless they aren't looking for a new machine, tend to backoff the purchase: They get scared ...
Further, since these people are comming from a relatively old machine, they will expect a large amount of reliability. Perhaps used parts, are not the best choice for these particular clients. Further, they are probably quite conservative and overclocking may be a bit much to accept. When explained, the obvious analogy may occur to them, of a souped up car engine and the resultant shortening of its lifespan. I'd vote no to OC'ing anything and no to used anything.
As you clarified the clients, I am no longer looking at a minimum system. Since at least one of them has been using a Barton 2500, I'd start considering something more powerful, even if not really needed. That client, is not going to be comparing the new machine to the 266 P2, but rather his Barton 2500. Since he is buying a new more modern machine his expectations are that it perform signifigently better than his Barton and that is not going to happen at the minimum level.
While, you need to immediately satisfy the scrooge by creating a good bargin, in the long run, you need to satisfy both. If you disapoint, Owner two, by not meeting his expectations because it does not perform better than his Barton, then that may kill his satisfaction over the purchase. I think the low-end Dell machine has now been eliminated from consideration and perhaps, one of the high-end AMD single core's are a better choice with a full gig of RAM.
Sorry to muddy up the waters, but after reading your updated client profile, I became no longer clear that we were heading down the right path for these people.
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
I purchased some new computer hardware to play around with. I like the Executive Series Intel mATX boards with the Q965GF chipset. I've tried an Antec NSK1300 case - tight, but it works fine with one hard drive. I tried out a Zalman ZM360B-APS and ZM600-HP power supply. They are very nice - simple, quiet, long sheathed cables, and of standard size. They fit nicely in Antec Solo cases and large Addtronics WTX cases (the bland ones DD doesn't like 
). I also gave the Zalman CNP9500 series CPU cooler a try. What a behemoth (those metal fins are sharp)! But it works, fits in my cases and is reasonably quiet. They should work fine for tray chips.
). I also gave the Zalman CNP9500 series CPU cooler a try. What a behemoth (those metal fins are sharp)! But it works, fits in my cases and is reasonably quiet. They should work fine for tray chips.
Adcadet
Storage Freak
So after all the muss and fuss, the parents decided after all that for now they don't need a business PC at the business. They did want my father to get a replacement for his P2-266/192...I wonder why? They also didn't want to wait for parts and for me to have time to build it for them, which would likely have been in mid-February. So with minimal guidance from me they spent ~$550 for an HP - Athlon X2 3800, 1 GB ram, NVidia 6150 integrated video card, integrated audio that will probably live up to the high expectations of my father's $20 speakers, DVD-RW, integrated NIC, no monitor for now. Came with XP Media Center (not like they'll use the MC features), and a free upgrade to whatever the appropriate Vista is for Media Center. I helped them get it setup in 7 minutes flat, but then took another 2 hours de-crappifying it and there is still some weirdness but it runs great. Thanks all for your suggestions.
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
You're welcome. I'm glad you appreciate the help and your task is over.
ddrueding
Fixture
Bang for the buck box, 8-13-07:
Core2Quad Q6600 - $295
GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L - $95
GIGABYTE GV-NX86T256H GeForce 8600GT 256MB - $125
GeIL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 - $85
SAMSUNG SpinPoint T Series HD403LJ 400GB - $85
Antec New Solution NSK3300 - $90
SAMSUNG 20X DVD±R DVD Burner Black SATA - $35
$810
Core2Quad Q6600 - $295
GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L - $95
GIGABYTE GV-NX86T256H GeForce 8600GT 256MB - $125
GeIL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 - $85
SAMSUNG SpinPoint T Series HD403LJ 400GB - $85
Antec New Solution NSK3300 - $90
SAMSUNG 20X DVD±R DVD Burner Black SATA - $35
$810
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
That's unbelievably overspecified for a business machine. For an engineer, it'd be a good setup.
You can safely drop to whatever the cheapest C2D is. I'd use an Intel motherboard with integrated video, and an 80 or 160GB hard disk. 2GB RAM would be gone, too, if the price per gigabyte exceeded $50.
You can safely drop to whatever the cheapest C2D is. I'd use an Intel motherboard with integrated video, and an 80 or 160GB hard disk. 2GB RAM would be gone, too, if the price per gigabyte exceeded $50.
Have you put these into service already, or are you just building them now? If you have, how long has it been out there? I'm in need of a good system at the medium/low end for a couple people. If it's a stable system, I'd probably consider it with a smaller graphics card.
What monitors are you guys recommending these days with your systems?
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I use Samsungs if possible and beyond that it depends on budget.
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
In general I agree with Merc's modifications although I don't know that I'd get the slowest C2D; most apps are still single-threaded and some could benefit from higher clock. It depends on the apps involved.
With RAM, for Vista consider 2GB the minimum for decent performance. If XP, 1GB. My current notebook has 1GB RAM and can I very easily get over 800MB in use with my average productivity stuff.
While I love my C2Q at home I admit it's overkill and a C2D would be fine, especially for an average business machine.
You also need to include KVM, OS, and productivity apps to be a complete solution although OSS can mitigate the software costs. A decent monitor, though, can run another couple hundred bucks.
With RAM, for Vista consider 2GB the minimum for decent performance. If XP, 1GB. My current notebook has 1GB RAM and can I very easily get over 800MB in use with my average productivity stuff.
While I love my C2Q at home I admit it's overkill and a C2D would be fine, especially for an average business machine.
You also need to include KVM, OS, and productivity apps to be a complete solution although OSS can mitigate the software costs. A decent monitor, though, can run another couple hundred bucks.
ddrueding
Fixture
Yup, it is over specified for an office machine. But it is the best bank-for-the-buck out there I think. My office clients fall into 3 categories; cheapskates, corporations, wealthy. These days the cheapskates get Dell Optiplex + Dell LCDs, the corps get Shuttle SFF PCs and Samsung LCDs, and the wealthy get something similar to the above for $2500 and Dell 24-30" LCDs. I like my wealthy clients.
I've only built one of the above, haven't even sold it yet. I'm just bragging to my clients how much faster it is than what they have now
I've only built one of the above, haven't even sold it yet. I'm just bragging to my clients how much faster it is than what they have now
ddrueding
Fixture
Corporate Box:
Shuttle SD30G2B - $200
Intel Core 2 Duo E4400 - $125
CORSAIR ValueSelect 1GB DDR2 667 - $35
Seagate 2.5" 5400.3 80GB 5400 RPM SATA - $60
SAMSUNG 20X DVD±R DVD Burner Black SATA - $35
$455
Shuttle SD30G2B - $200
Intel Core 2 Duo E4400 - $125
CORSAIR ValueSelect 1GB DDR2 667 - $35
Seagate 2.5" 5400.3 80GB 5400 RPM SATA - $60
SAMSUNG 20X DVD±R DVD Burner Black SATA - $35
$455
ddrueding
Fixture
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
There's no way I'd use a Shoebox for a corporate machine. Proprietary motherboards, flakey power supplies and frankly even the aesthetics are a problem on those things.
ddrueding
Fixture
Proprietary motherboards, but readily available and cheap. I haven't had many issues with the power supplies, especially with this low a load. I like the form factor because it keeps them on the desks and off the floor. Way less dust.
Will Rickards
Storage Is My Life
Hmm... This is pretty much my recent build (all prices mwave.com):
Except I used the more expensive gigabyte board and bought more ram and am reusing a video card.
Will's Build But Cheaper 2007-08-13
Throw a C2D E6750 in there instead of the C2Q Q6600 and you've got it down to just over $500 without a hard drive. I wouldn't build a box with less than 2GB these days.
Except I used the more expensive gigabyte board and bought more ram and am reusing a video card.
Will's Build But Cheaper 2007-08-13
Code:
CPU: Core2Quad Q6600 $279
MB: Intel BOXDG33BUC $104
RAM: Corsair Value 667 2GB $84
GPU: Integrated $0
CASE: Antec NSK2400 $90
DVD: Optiarc SATA $32
TOTAL WITHOUT HARD DRIVE: $589Throw a C2D E6750 in there instead of the C2Q Q6600 and you've got it down to just over $500 without a hard drive. I wouldn't build a box with less than 2GB these days.
Bozo
Storage? I am Storage!
Basic work box:
Intel Celeron D352, 3.2GHz $57.99
1GB Kingston Value RAM $48.49
Intel DG965WHMKR $115.99
WD800JD 80GB $42.99
Antec NSK4480 $89.95
(Antec Minuet 300) ($84.99)
Any cheap CD/DVD $40.00
Total $395.91.
The mother board has sound, network and video, but also has a PCI-x16 slot. It also will handle C2D if needed.
This works fine for Office, E-Mail and connecting to a PLC. But is easily upgraded to most anything we could need. It even has built in RAID.
Bozo
Intel Celeron D352, 3.2GHz $57.99
1GB Kingston Value RAM $48.49
Intel DG965WHMKR $115.99
WD800JD 80GB $42.99
Antec NSK4480 $89.95
(Antec Minuet 300) ($84.99)
Any cheap CD/DVD $40.00
Total $395.91.
The mother board has sound, network and video, but also has a PCI-x16 slot. It also will handle C2D if needed.
This works fine for Office, E-Mail and connecting to a PLC. But is easily upgraded to most anything we could need. It even has built in RAID.
Bozo
Chewy509
Wotty wot wot.
Just my 2 Australian cents.
If corporate/SMB then HP (or Dell if pressed) cheapo desktop w/ 3yr onsite warranty. (I like the current HP DC7700 SFF PCs at the moment). I tend to explain the additional $$$ is for the onsite warranty and piece of mind, that is, if I drop off the Earth, then they are still covered on warranty. (And when buying 10+ PCs at once, Dell/IBM/HP give decent discounts as well).
If home user, something like Will's PC will do, but clearly explain that I only cover hardware replacement of parts for first 12months. OS/Software reinstallation is NOT covered by warranty (except for first 30days as dictated by law).
If corporate/SMB then HP (or Dell if pressed) cheapo desktop w/ 3yr onsite warranty. (I like the current HP DC7700 SFF PCs at the moment). I tend to explain the additional $$$ is for the onsite warranty and piece of mind, that is, if I drop off the Earth, then they are still covered on warranty. (And when buying 10+ PCs at once, Dell/IBM/HP give decent discounts as well).
If home user, something like Will's PC will do, but clearly explain that I only cover hardware replacement of parts for first 12months. OS/Software reinstallation is NOT covered by warranty (except for first 30days as dictated by law).
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
Does anyone foresee or know if the quad core CPUs will come down in price in the near future? ~$300 seems like a lot for a CPU.
Barcelona (AMD next gen) is scheduled for a Sept. 10 launch, but this is server only. It was originally slated for July 22, then Aug 22 and now Sep. Slippage is bad. The desktop version was slated for Nov. 10. It may slip as well. Intel have just announced Penryn (current Core 2 follow-on) for Nov 10, so I would not expect any major price movements before either of these are released.
e_dawg
Storage Freak
I think the Dell still comes out on top if you need a legal copy of Windows with it.