Small case build

[Chewy509]

Hi Guys,

Helping with a build for a friend that requires a smaller case to be used. Due to the cavity available for a tower in his desk being only 420mm deep, I'm limited to cases that are are less than 400mm deep (due to space required for cables at the back). The cavity itself is 280mm wide x 420mm deep x 500mm high. (11" x 16.5" x 19.5").

I've come up the following:

1. Intel i5-4690
2. ASRock H97M-PRO4 or ASUS H97M-PLUS (depending on availablity/price). Note: both of these has Intel LAN controllers, whilst the equivalent Gigabyte and MSI boards use Realtek controllers.
3. 32GB Kingston KVR DDR3-1600 (2x KVR16N11K2/16 16GB Kit) or Kingston HyperX Blue DDR3-2133 (currently on special at the retailer for same price as regular DDR3-1600 RAM).
4. BitFenix Prodigy-M ( http://www.bitfenix.com/global/en/products/chassis/prodigy-m )
5. BitFenix FuryG 550W PSU (Modular)
6. eVGA nVidia GTX750Ti 2GB
7. Intel 730 240GB SSD
8. 2TB Hitachi HDD (from existing system).
9. Pioneer BR-RW drive

This comes in around AU$1400. I want to convince him to get an i7-4790 (AU$100 more than the i5-4690), but budget is limited... Also reusing 2x 24" monitors... (DVI/VGA inputs only)

Main requirements are general PC usage (web, email, documents), Java/C++ development with VMs for different OSes (hence the 32GB RAM), with some light gaming, primarily Minecraft and other more casual games. No CoD/Battlefield FPSs... Host OS will most likely be Linux based (his current system is dual boot, but spends 99% of the time in Ubuntu).

Has anyone used the Prodigy-M and like to offer any thoughts? Any issues with parts that may be a show stopper, or something else to consider, either in parts/case? Is the Intel 730 SSD** overkill, and would a Intel 530 (or other equivalent) be a better fit, allowing some funds to go into better parts elsewhere?

I've gone with a regular i5, and not a K as he doesn't want to OC, and similar with the H97 vs a Z97 board, doesn't want to overclock. (Note: the i5-4690K is based on Devil's Canyon, and not Haswell, so this one (i5-4690K) still has VT-x/VT-d enabled, which the Haswell's disabled with the K series, which for some people negated getting the K series). Anyway going with a i5-4690K and a Z97 based board blows the budget...

Also went with a GTX750Ti due to the low power requirements, whilst offering decent performance for an entry level card, and since it's based on Maxwell and not Kepler, gives some additional hardware support for additional video codecs (like H265). Note: The GTX750Ti doesn't need external power, it draws all it's power from the PCIe slot, allowing for a smaller PSU.

The only thing I'm undecided on, is a 3rd party HSF? Any recommendations for such a small case?

PS. We just got a few Intel 730 and Samsung 850 Pro's for testing at work, and damn these things are quick... Unfortunately don't have any Intel 530 or Samsung 840 Pro's to test against to see if the performance of the 730 vs the 530 (or 850 Pro vs the 840 Pro) is worth the extra money.

 

[Stereodude]

Also went with a GTX750Ti due to the low power requirements, whilst offering decent performance for an entry level card, and since it's based on Maxwell and not Kepler, gives some additional hardware support for additional video codecs (like H265). Note: The GTX750Ti doesn't need external power, it draws all it's power from the PCIe slot, allowing for a smaller PSU.

Maxwell only has a hybrid decoder for HEVC. Kepler supports the same hybrid decoder.

 

[time]

1. AFAIK, the K suffix CPUs have always had VT-x/VT-d disabled - it's not unique to Haswell.
2. Many years ago, Realtek LAN controllers were inferior to Intel, but I'm pretty sure performance tests since show similar results. Is there some problem that we should know about?
3. How does your friend plan to use 32GB of RAM? Is his first name "Lunar"? Seems like a waste of money for 99.9% of people.
4. The Prodigy-M is a cute, brightly colored case - if that's what you want. But with 2 drives and a graphics card stuffed into it, I'm pretty sure it will struggle thermally (i.e. loud fans); there's a review somewhere that confirms this. A small volume case needs good airflow design once you start blocking up the interior. The 385mm deep Silverstone TJ08E, while staid in comparison, is a far superior functional design with the best cooling in its class. It's also far easier to work on.
5. I don't know who makes the BitFenix PSU, but you can get a genuine Seasonic equivalent for less money.
6. You already know that the GTX750Ti is outclassed by the similarly priced GTX660, but as you say, the former uses hardly any power (60W). In that case, why specify a 550W PSU?
7. This is where I think you should spend more, rather than on the CPU. Most people will find a 480GB more useful than a 240GB. Brand used to be very important, but that's mostly no longer the case. Having said that, my favorite has been the SanDisk Extreme II (I believe it shares the same controller as the Corsair Neutron?) because it doesn't slow down with use. But looking at the pricing, why not jump straight to a Samsung 850 Pro? That way you can have your cake and eat it too.

HTH.

 

[Bozo]

Why not use something like the Intel NUC? You can attach it to the back of the monitor.

 

[Chewy509]

Hi Time,

Thanks for the feedback.

1. Was aware of this, but the new Devil's Canyon K series no longer disable VT-x/VT-d, which may help some others here.
2. In our lab at work, under Linux we're finding increased CPU utilisation and can't move more than 60-70MB/s on Gigabit ethernet, whereas with an Intel 210 controller, we regularly get 90+MB/s. (Same specs at each end, the other difference is the LAN controller). This mirrors a lot of discussion on Ubuntu/Debian forums about poor NFS/CIFS performance with Realtek based controllers.
3. Main for running multiple VMs at a time, eg 4x VMs with 4GB each running Win2K8 or Linux server installations. Could run with 16GB, but that would limit the amount of VMs and their RAM provisioning, and an extra 16GB is only $175...
4. Will definitely look at the Silverstone TJ08E...
5. I was mainly going with the BitFenix PSU as they're modular and designed to be used with the smaller BitFenix cases. I'll look to see Seasonic has good modular ones.
6. I did consider the GTX660, but with a small case wanted to keep power and heat down, hence the 750Ti... The 550W is the lowest wattage BitFenix PSU. My estimate for this system would only require a 400-450W PSU at most... (Would you agree)?
7. I'll look for the larger capacity SSDs (Sandisk and Corsair)

 

[Chewy509]

Why not use something like the Intel NUC? You can attach it to the back of the monitor.

When he first came to me, I started with the Zotac EN series and some of the smaller Shuttle boxes... then came the 32GB RAM want... And looking at a some of the larger shuttle bare bones kits (which can be a little hard to come by here), it was cheaper to go with the mATX mobo+case route...

 

[Mercutio]

The Prodigy is absolutely enormous for a "small" case. I have a couple that I have filled up with hard drives for off-site backup purposes. I will say that they're quiet-ish and, at least with i3 CPUs and no video card, they aren't a problem as far as heat management.

 

[snowhiker]

7. I'll look for the larger capacity SSDs (Sandisk and Corsair)

You might be able to find a good deal on a Samsung 840 Pro 256 or 512 GB as they are being discontinued for the 850 series. ($160 or $380 @ Newegg)

 

[sedrosken]

Kind of off topic, but why would VT-x/VT-d be disabled for the K series? Wouldn't that make it less attractive to end-users?

Oh, wait, I get it. They think gamers (or other people who overclock) aren't all that interested in hypervisors.

Well then why include it on the Celeron? Mine has it. I have almost no use for it, as I rarely if ever use VMs (and if I do, I'm not expecting them to be terribly quick anyway). Your average person who is going to buy these has even less of a use for it than I do.

Anyway, for the price, it seems to be a pretty sweet deal. In particular I like the GTX750Ti. Very nice card, especially in relation to the rest of the system.

You did very well by my standards is what I'm (trying to, at least) say here.

 

[Chewy509]

Kind of off topic, but why would VT-x/VT-d be disabled for the K series? Wouldn't that make it less attractive to end-users?

Oh, wait, I get it. They think gamers (or other people who overclock) aren't all that interested in hypervisors.

Quite the opposite, high-end users do typically like VMs, especially when you can do 3D pass-through and get to play older games in VMs that don't work on the Host OS.

My understanding was they did it for system stability.

As for why the Celeron's have it? Low end servers running Hyper-V, Xen or Jails (in FreeBSD land). Intel does a lot of business in the entry server market, and have recently released some Celeron's and i3's that support ECC RAM as well.

 

[Chewy509]

You might be able to find a good deal on a Samsung 840 Pro 256 or 512 GB as they are being discontinued for the 850 series. ($160 or $380 @ Newegg)

A lot of online retailers have either delisted the 840 Pro's or if you call them, they have no stock of them. I can get some shipped interstate, but the shipping price largely negates any saving with going with an older model.

 

[Handruin]

Would the Fractal Design Define Mini work for this build? What about a SilverStone FT03-Mini?

 

[CougTek]

What about a SilverStone FT03-Mini?

He would have to change his motherboard model since the FT03-mini is basicly a sugo SG05 standing on the front panel. It only accepts mini-ITX motherboards. **Edit : Also, if my memory is good, the FT03 and FT03-Mini require slim optical drive, which would require an additional expense for Chewy.**

I approve the SSD choice. The Samsung 850 Pro seem to be the best overall performer right now and the Intel SSD 730 is above most previous-generation drives too, while almost certainly being among the most reliable models (together with the Samsung Pro series and LAMB controller-based SSDs, like the Seagate SSD 600 Pro).

Overall, it looks like a nice choice of parts. I'm pretty sure it will boot . I can't comment too much on the prices because they are often off in Australia compared to what we see in North America.

 

[Chewy509]

@Time, thank you so much for suggesting the TJ08E, excellent case. Get's really good reviews on slient pc review ( http://www.silentpcreview.com/ss-tj08e ).

After going back over the reviews I've found on the Prodigy-M, virtually none did thermal testing on CPU/GPU/PSU temps in the system, they were all about showing how the system looked with things installed. Two mentioned thermal issues with a fully loaded system, but did no formal testing, just mentioned that the setup felt warm... The only one I did find used an i3, integrated gfx and an SSD... (no DVD, no discrete GPU, no 3"5 7200rpm HDD, 3rd party HSF (Artic Silver HSF IIRC)), which obvisously showed good thermals... :wink:

The only other case that looked like a good fit is the Aerocool DS Cube ( http://www.aerocool.com.tw/index.ph.../ds/1053-dead-silence-red-edition-information ), especially with motherboard and air flow layout, but alas not easily available here. (Need to ship from Melbourne, 1500km away).

But with the money saved by using the TJ08E, a Seasonic G-450W PSU, will also get a Noctuna NH-U12S HSF to replace the Intel HSF unit.

Whilst a 480GB SSD would be nice, there is currently little need for it, most of the data will live on the 2TB drive... (20GB for OS/Apps, and about 35GB for /home with live/active data, the rest, eg VMs, movies, pictures, etc are on the 2TB). In saying that, we've switched from the Intel 730 to a Samsung 850 Pro.. So the current build is:

1. Intel i5-4690 (AU$245)
2. Noctua NH-U12S Multi Socket CPU Cooler (AU$75)
3. Noctua NF-F12-PWM 120mm (AU$25)
4. 2x Kingston KVR16N11K2/16 16GB Kit(2x8G) DDR3 1600MHZ (AU$350)
5. ASRock H97M-PRO4 (AU$107)
6. Silverstone TJ08E (AU$99)
7. SeaSonic G-450W 80Plus (AU$99)
8. eVGA GTX750Ti 2G (AU$179)
9. Samsung SSD 2.5inch 7mm SATA 256GB 850PRO (AU$215)
10. Hitachi 2TB 7200rpm HDD (existing).
11. Pioneer BDR-209DBKS 12X Blu-Ray Writer (AU$85)

Total: AU$1479

Changing the GTX 750Ti to a GTX660 would add ~AU$40 to the total cost... Is it worth it? (noting the addition heat)?

The only thing I really need to get him to decide on, is the Blu-Ray burner... with the current poor support for BR in Linux, I personally don't think it's worth the expense now...

 

[Stereodude]

You might be able to find a good deal on a Samsung 840 Pro 256 or 512 GB as they are being discontinued for the 850 series. ($160 or $380 @ Newegg)

The 512GB 840 Pro was $250 yesterday at Newegg.

 

[Chewy509]

Would the Fractal Design Define Mini work for this build?

My first thought for a case were to look at the Fractal Design cases (a company I like), but alas they're all too deep.

 

[Chewy509]

The 512GB 840 Pro was $250 yesterday at Newegg.

Average is ~AU$360 here for this one... The 512GB 850 Pro currently listed for around AU$409!

 

[time]

Apologies, I believe I was thinking of the BitFenix Phenom regarding marginal cooling. The Prodigy-M is fine. I still stand by the other comments though; check out this AnandTech review of the earlier Mini_ITX Prodigy for the notes on building, particularly the warning on using 160mm depth PSUs (which includes both the BitFenix and Seasonic modular units). I see you've opted for a 140mm deep non-modular, which is probably wise anyway.

Thanks for the tip about Realtek gigabit limitations, BTW.

As someone who uses VMs with both SSD and HDD stores, I would do almost anything to keep my current VMs on an SSD. I'm talking mainly about suspending, shutting down, etc, but it's also difficult to persuade VMWare to use RAM instead of paging. That's why I suggested the bigger SSD. To be clearer, *any* current SSD is so much better to use than any HDD that I really wouldn't stress over buying the latest and greatest. In all probability, you will never be able to tell the difference.

It's easy to change an optical drive; unless he's going to be watching/ripping BluRays on his PC, there's no point right now. I included a BluRay drive in my daughter's PC because she *will* do those things, and because as CougTek pointed out, the FT03 Mini needs a slimline slot drive - which is wonderful, BTW.

If he's a FPS gamer, buy the GTX660, otherwise, it doesn't matter.

 

[Mercutio]

Why not a 750Ti for modest gaming needs? I've seen them as cheap as $115 and the much lower TDP probably has real value in a small chassis.

 

[Bozo]

I fail to see the reasoning in buying an after market CPU cooler. Especially for a home computer that will probably never see more than 5% CPU usage.

The computers I built at work sat on the factory floor where we melted aluminum ( 2000F+ ) and the ambient air temperature was around 100F+.
These computers were covered in dross or mill oil or both. They had no air filters on them.
In my 15+ years of installing these computers, I never had a computer fail for a heat problem. ( about 85 computers )
I think Intel knows something about cooling their CPUs and supplies their CPUs with an excellent heat sink/fan.

 

[timwhit]

If he's doing software development, he will be maxing out the CPU quite often, however, I would probably skip the aftermarket HSF also.

 

[Bozo]

The computer I run F@H on is maxed out with a stock Intel heat sink / fan on it. No problems after running 24/7 for about a week now.

 

[Chewy509]

Why not a 750Ti for modest gaming needs?

A 750Ti is in the build... As I said, it's mainly for minecraft and more casual games... His a fan of games on Myst, so unless newer puzzle/adventure games require a beefy GPU, I can't see the need for anything beefer.

 

[Chewy509]

If he's doing software development, he will be maxing out the CPU quite often, however, I would probably skip the aftermarket HSF also.

A aftermarket HSF was primarily due to maxing out the CPU, in both software development whilst concurrently running multiple VMs, coupled with a small case that will be placed in a in-desk cavity. At work all our software development boxes use the stock HSF (most are Intel i7's of different generations) and typically have long bursts of 100% CPU, but all are in well ventilated cases (Typically Fractal Design ARC or Define series with front and rear fans).

 

[Mercutio]

A 750Ti is in the build... As I said, it's mainly for minecraft and more casual games... His a fan of games on Myst, so unless newer puzzle/adventure games require a beefy GPU, I can't see the need for anything beefer.

I was addressing time at that point. The 750Ti seemed like a better choice than his suggestion for a GTX660.

 

[snowhiker]

The 512GB 840 Pro was $250 yesterday at Newegg.

Wow! I must have checked prices just before they lowered them. $304 right now. $309?

Newegg shenanigans? $304 when listed with other SSDs but $309 when you click the link?




What the F?!?

 

[Chewy509]

I was addressing time at that point. The 750Ti seemed like a better choice than his suggestion for a GTX660.

Apologies, wasn't haven't a go at you. It sounded like you assumed I was using integrated gfx or going with the GTX660 suggestion.

FYI, GTX660's are getting few and far between availability wise here. (They are typically only $30 more than the GTX750Ti, and as time notes, offers additional performance greater than the additional $30 would suggest).

 

[Handruin]

If you can't find a good deal on a Samsung SSD, what about the Crucial MX100 512GB? Seems decent given the costs...but not sure of availability in your area. It seems to get decent reviews overall and the cost seems pretty decent given the size.

 

[Chewy509]

If you can't find a good deal on a Samsung SSD, what about the Crucial MX100 512GB? Seems decent given the costs...but not sure of availability in your area. It seems to get decent reviews overall and the cost seems pretty decent given the size.

Crucial MX100 128GB = AU$85
Crucial MX100 256GB = AU$148
Crucial MX100 512GB = AU$269

My only concern with the Curcial, their MX500 has TRIM suppoort blacklisted in the Linux kernel due to it being broken (as in brick the drive broken)... Wonder if they've fixed that?

PS. The MX100 prices are very similar to the Intel 530 prices for the similar capacity.
Intel 530 120G = AU$89 (+$4)
Intel 530 180G = AU$140
Intel 530 240G = AU$175 (+$27)

 

[Chewy509]

Just like to thank everyone for your input, he decided to go with the build as last detailed, except swapping the BR-RW for a DVD-RW.

 

[Chewy509]

All this discussion on a new PC, my beautiful wife has given the ok for me to finally replace my 5yr old system (yep, the one I was going to replace 12mths ago, but funds fell through at the time).

I like the idea of a smaller case and my new desk only allows for a 420mm deep case (The in desk cavity is 450mm deep), so am considering:

1. Intel i5-4690 (AU$245)
2. Noctua NH-U12S Multi Socket CPU Cooler (AU$75)
3. Noctua NF-F12-PWM 120mm (AU$25)
4. Kingston KVR16N11K2/16 16GB Kit(2x8G) DDR3 1600MHZ (AU$175)
5. ASRock H97M-PRO4 (AU$107)
6. Silverstone TJ08E (AU$99)
7. SeaSonic G-550W 80Plus (AU$111)
8. eVGA GTX760 SC 2G (AU$305)
9. Intel 530 120GB (AU$89)
10. Hitachi 2TB 7200rpm HDD (existing).
11. Pioneer DVR-221LBKS DVD-RW (AU$25)

Total: AU$1265. (budget is AU$1300)

Most of the stuff I do on my current desktop is C++/Java development, web/email and light gaming**, but I tend to play FPS's as well... I do use VMs occasionally for testing my applications in other environments, but nothing stressing RAM wise, certainly no need for 32GB RAM...

In case someone mentions the small SSD, my OS installation (Arch Linux) is only 10GB and /home is 15GB... (Music, pictures, videos, VMs are on the 2TB HDD).

The only question I have is the 550W PSU? That's all that's needed with a GTX760 and the rest of the components? (eVGA say 500W PSU, 30Amp on the 12V, the G-550W PSU is rated for 45Amp on the 12V rail).

** Seriously looking at introducing Isaac to minecraft, so going with a beefer GPU to help long term.

 

[CougTek]

Instead of opting for a Noctua cooler & fan, stick with the Intel HSF and jump from the GTX 760 to the GTX 970. This card is twice as fast as the aging GTX 760, for 100AU$ more. While a GPU is rarely the part you want to put the most money in, in this case, I think it's a better investment than a fancy HSF. An unoverclocked i5-4690 doesn't produce enough heat to justify a monster heatsink. Even under load, it should remain relatively quiet with the retail HSF. If you really want to put something else, opt for a 30AU$ tower heatsink like a Cooler Master 212 or an excellent Xigmatek Gaia SD1283 (the one in my main computer, almost silent despite running the FAH client full time on an i7-2600K).

And a quality 550W PSU is more than you need. I bet this system wouldn't suck more than 350W under load anyway. I've use the Seasonix Gold series power supplies in the past and I've been very satisfied.

 

[Chewy509]

I had concerns on the height of the 212 Evo, but triple checking, it'll easily fit, and will use that. Thanks for the prompting.

FYI, The GTX970s are over $200 more than the GTX760 here...

PS. I was looking at HSF, and my wife goes, "looking at naked computers again"? So I fired up google images and searched for "naked computers"... disturbing, very disturbing... (NSFW if you do it)

 

[Bozo]

Power supply calculator.

 

[sedrosken]

PS. I was looking at HSF, and my wife goes, "looking at naked computers again"? So I fired up google images and searched for "naked computers"... disturbing, very disturbing... (NSFW if you do it)

I don't know what I was expecting, but I do know that it wasn't what I got.

 

[Chewy509]

Just as a follow up, I ended up getting:

• Intel i7-4790
• CoolerMaster 212 Evo
• Silverstone 12cm fan
• 2x Kingston 16GB Kit(2x8G) DDR3 1866MHZ (HyperX Black)
• ASRock H97M-PRO4
• Silverstone TJ08E
• SeaSonic G-550W 80Plus
• eVGA GTX760 SC 2G
• Intel 530 24GB
• Hitachi 2TB 7200rpm HDD (existing).
• LG BluRay-RW drive

This system so far has handled everything I've thrown at it with ease. (Running Arch Linux)

The main change was replacing the Pioneer DVD with a LG BR, as the price wasn't that much more, but more importantly, the LG BR drive was shorter than the Pioneer giving more room between the drive and the PSU (something that is in short supply with the case). Also the RAM was on special, the HyperX was cheaper than the regular DDR3-1600 RAM I was going to get...

Under full load, the CPUs get a tad over 50C, with the rest of the system reporting temps below this... And even playing games like TORCS and stuntrally, I don't get below 60fps even on the highest graphics settings...

 

[CougTek]

So, not disappointed with the noise? I hope you don't regret the Cooler Master I suggested you. 51°C-52°C at full load shouldn't be a cause of concern for the CPU.

 

[Chewy509]

No issues with the noise of the 212 Evo, in fact the front 18cm fan of the TJ08E is quite loud on high setting, barely audible on low setting, but still louder than the 212 even on the low setting...

The loudest I've had was my old dual Opteron 242 system... 6x 80cm fans (3 front, 3 rear) and 2x 120cm HSFs... plus a stack of 10K SCSI's up front... mind you, the system as a whole never got above 10C ambient temp. (eg never more than 40C).

 

[time]

Just as a footnote, I built a PC from recycled parts for my youngest daughter to play SkyRim etc (at her urging - her laptop doesn't cut it). I tried an old ATI HD4770, but it only has 512MB of RAM and seems to struggle with SkyRim. So inspired by Chewy, I decided to try an Nvidia GTX750 (not the Ti) to go along with a new TJ08E case (which for some reason only has one fan speed instead of two, but I don't care in this situation).

I'm impressed. Skyrim is maxed out with maximum quality at 1920x1200 and there are no problems. Similar for some other games. Cost me US$106 + tax for an Asus and it uses almost no power. Crazy.

 

[Mercutio]

I need to replace my NUC with... something. The issue is that the current Haswell NUC I have has grossly inadequate cooling, something that's highly apparent when I try to use it at 2160p resolution. Intel doesn't leave me many options to mod in cooling and based on discussions I've read, it doesn't seem like the sealed nature of the box does anything to help.

This of course creates two competing interests: Getting a low noise/ Low power device, since it will almost certainly be an always on machine, and getting a machine with the horsepower to handle the 4k workload.

My impulse for low power is probably a 35W Skylake CPU, either an i3 6100T or an i5 6400T. The i3 is substantially faster per core (3.2GHz vs 2.2) and I'm not sure I have need of four cores in the first place, but I'm probably going to stick a fairly serious GPU in that machine. I have a 750TI sitting around, which experience tells me is an adequate mid-range graphics card for most purposes, albeit not one capable of handling 4k resolutions.

The 750ti has a dual slot cooler, which makes selection of a "small" enclosure difficult. Maybe something like a Fractal Node 304? I've had a hard time keeping shoeboxes cool though, which makes me think I might be better off with a Silverstone ML03 instead.