SSDs - State of the Product?

[CityK]

I'm kind of wondering about SSD's and laptops. Is there a different set of connectors for laptop SATA drives vs. the standard SATA drives?

If so, who makes laptop SSD's, and, has anyone used them?

I can't just plug a Vertex Turbo into a Lenova?

As David mentions, most laptops currently use the 2.5'' SATA, which utilizes the regular size SATA connectors (power and data ... and are 5V/3.3V compatible).

However, a growing number of laptops (and I'd imagine nettops) are adopting the 1.8" device size. For instance, the primary drive for Lenovo ThinkPads now use 1.8". This form factor for SATA requires the microSATA power and data connectors. It is also exclusively 3.3V. So if you were planning on using such size drive in a desktop machine as well, then you will have to take those things into consideration (All this is essentially recapped earlier in the thread here)

My understanding was that Toshiba was a large supplier for the 1.8" drives (I know this is what Lenovo was offering previously). The 2nd gen intel drives are now widely available too in this size (<-- note to Gilbo, as he asked about it a while back, though I'd imagine that he is plenty aware of this fact now).

As for plopping in a 2.5" drive in your Lenovo -- you can, but you'd have to use the ultrabay (and approp. adapter) for your device (suggest you carefully research the necessary requirements per model, as they may differ and be uncompatible btw them), and, if you are going to use it as the primary drive, then you'd have to switch the boot order in BIOS. For example.

 

[LunarMist]

To complicate matter further, there is yet another recent form factor, the 7 mm height 2.5" drive. Apparently some SSDs (e.g., X25 series) are compatible as well as the Seagate single-platter drives. The form factor is useful for SSDs since the circuit boards do not need much height. It is also desirable to produce a 2.5" mechanical hard drive with one platter that is cheaper and faster than a 1.8" drive with two (The 240GB MK2431GAH is the largest AFAIK and possibly the end of the road for 1.8" HD technology.)

 

[Handruin]

However, a growing number of laptops (and I'd imagine nettops) are adopting the 1.8" device size. For instance, the primary drive for Lenovo ThinkPads now use 1.8". This form factor for SATA requires the microSATA power and data connectors. It is also exclusively 3.3V. So if you were planning on using such size drive in a desktop machine as well, then you will have to take those things into consideration (All this is essentially recapped earlier in the thread here)

My understanding was that Toshiba was a large supplier for the 1.8" drives (I know this is what Lenovo was offering previously). The 2nd gen intel drives are now widely available too in this size (<-- note to Gilbo, as he asked about it a while back, though I'd imagine that he is plenty aware of this fact now).

Does this only apply to the latest Lenovo ThinkPads for this year or select models? My T500 which is less than a year old has a 2.5" Hitachi 160GB 7200 SATA drive inside which was the default option.

 

[Stinker]

I have been thinking about getting a SSD. However, I don't really understand what the big deal could be.

The first time I launch FFox after a reboot, sure, it takes a second or two for it to come up. However, after I shut it down, the restart of the app. is instantaneous. The same is true for most, if not all, of my other apps. Besides a quicker boot of Windows that I tend to read about on all the Newegg reviews, what's the big hoopla all about? What's 'transformed' about the computing experience?

 

[Stinker]

After a little more research, I am definitely NOT impressed given the price premium...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lR0XoHFU6Y

STINKER

 

[Handruin]

If you start doing other tasks like video editing, photo editing/processing or other I/O intensive tasks that take a while, you can probably see a benefit with an SSD.

 

[LunarMist]

I have been thinking about getting a SSD. However, I don't really understand what the big deal could be.

The first time I launch FFox after a reboot, sure, it takes a second or two for it to come up. However, after I shut it down, the restart of the app. is instantaneous. The same is true for most, if not all, of my other apps. Besides a quicker boot of Windows that I tend to read about on all the Newegg reviews, what's the big hoopla all about? What's 'transformed' about the computing experience?

A good rule of thumb is to examine any activity that takes longer than you are comfortable waiting to complete. If the CPU utilization is less than 100% (or 100% of the usable cores in the application) during that time, the HD is probably a limiting factor. Most users don't really need SSDs in desktop systems equipped with modern 7200 RPM 32/64MB caches drives. Don't feel pressured to buy one. Most of us here have specific usage patterns that benefit from SSDs or are simply interested in trying them. If I did not use PS every day and PTGUI frequently, I would not have a real need either. One aspect of SSDs that I like is that they do not need any mounting, so I was able to stuff a couple of extra drives in an already full 10-bay case.

 

[CityK]

Does this only apply to the latest Lenovo ThinkPads for this year or select models? My T500 which is less than a year old has a 2.5" Hitachi 160GB 7200 SATA drive inside which was the default option.

Ah, my mistake. It is indeed only the case with a few select models (T400s and T410s)...all the others use 2.5". Not sure why I'd thought they had moved to the smaller form factor across the entire lineup. Sorry for the noise. Now back to your regular SSD programming!

 

[Stinker]

A good rule of thumb is to examine any activity that takes longer than you are comfortable waiting to complete. If the CPU utilization is less than 100% (or 100% of the usable cores in the application) during that time, the HD is probably a limiting factor. Most users don't really need SSDs in desktop systems equipped with modern 7200 RPM 32/64MB caches drives. Don't feel pressured to buy one. Most of us here have specific usage patterns that benefit from SSDs or are simply interested in trying them. If I did not use PS every day and PTGUI frequently, I would not have a real need either. One aspect of SSDs that I like is that they do not need any mounting, so I was able to stuff a couple of extra drives in an already full 10-bay case.

Good advice. It seems like a lot of the people buying these things aren't really benefiting from them much other than holding a stopwatch while booting their computer and/or running benchmarks. They will be a nice thing to have once the price comes down to a reasonable level though..

 

[Stinker]

Newegg had this OCZ Vertex 30GB for $70 after rebate.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227393

Would have jumped on it for my wife's laptop which has a nice C2D processor and ample RAM with XP but a painfully slow 4200RPM hard drive. It sold out too fast though.. :-(

Any pitfalls with XP and these SSDs? I read that they tend to do better on Win7.

 

[Handruin]

I remember there being some issues with partition alignment under windows XP which causes the stuttering effect.

There is information in this thread somewhere from Timwhit who I believe used a software solution called SteadyState to remedy the issues.

 

[Stereodude]

Good SSD's don't have those issues under XP even if they're not aligned.

 

[Handruin]

Is the OCZ that Stinker mentioned one of those good SSDs you spoke of?

 

[ddrueding]

OCZ Vertex work great straight out of the box in XP without any tweaking at all. Disabling the defrag service will help with drive lifetime.

 

[Stereodude]

Is the OCZ that Stinker mentioned one of those good SSDs you spoke of?

Yes, the Vertex and the other Indilinx based drives are considered good along with the Intel based drives. I'm not very knowledgeable about the newer drives.

 

[Will Rickards]

The Vertex Turbo ones though right? The regular Vertex ones are not so good?

 

[Stereodude]

The Vertex Turbo ones though right? The regular Vertex ones are not so good?

They are both Indilinx based along with the Agility series as well I believe. It was my impression that the turbo drives are overclocked. :-?

 

[MaxBurn]

Think that's right. Also that's one of the general things I don't like about OCZ, they have a long solid history of running devices out of spec.

 

[ddrueding]

All the Vertex drives are fine. I have a LOT of them, and I've never had a failure. Some running in servers, in laptops, and in brutal industrial environments. All fine.

 

[Santilli]

In going over to SSD's, I've noticed that it's much more like having everything in RAM.

In other words, windows paging, program paging, anything that would normally be stored on a hard drive, happens at what we preceive as nearly RAM speed.

Programs that normally take awhile to load, like Office programs, are pretty much instant.

I suspect we don't realize how much we are slowed down in normal functions by constant, small hard drive calls from the operating system, and programs. When that's pretty much gone, the result is pretty amazing.

When access time goes from 12-17msec to .1 msec, it really speeds windows normal functions up a LOT>

 

[LunarMist]

Now Greg is touting the joys of SSDs. What has the world come to? :mrgrn:

 

[Stereodude]

Think that's right. Also that's one of the general things I don't like about OCZ, they have a long solid history of running devices out of spec.

That's how they got their start. OverClockerZone... OCZ. They sold processors that were guaranteed to run at a certain overclocked frequency.

 

[LunarMist]

There are too many different OCZ drives with similar names. I have one of the 30GB models (OCZSSD2-1VTX30G) which is OK in XP. It is slower than the X25-M G2 when pushed with heavy writes, but most users don't do that. X25-E is still the better one to use.

 

[Stinker]

Now Greg is touting the joys of SSDs. What has the world come to? :mrgrn:

Maybe balance will be restored to the world when someone releases an SSD with the SCSI interface. :rotfl:

 

[Handruin]

I think the new guy just zinged Greg on his SCSI addicition...

They actually have them!

 

[ddrueding]

The new guy is either a longtime lurker, a sock puppet, or has really been doing his homework.

 

[Handruin]

I was looking for a RAM drive and stumbled onto this forum thread which has some good general info for optimizing your system for SSDs. There is also a link to RAMDisk which works under windows 7.

 

[Santilli]

Adtron pricing made Intel Xeon pricing look sane. Yes, I know they are there.

I still don't think the prices justify SSD's, or are just starting too. I can't help but think
it's going to go the way RAM did in 1994-5, when 32 MB of ram for a mac laptop went from 1250 dollars to 150 in one year...

Unless you can get a decent price on a Vertex Turbo, 150 dollars, and, you can fit all your c drive stuff on to 30 gigs.

A lot of home users could do this, and, in that case, it's an upgrade that really makes sense, since most home users aren't using 15K SCSI drives, in Raid 0.

I can like two girls at the same time, two cars, and multiple types of storage without denegrating another. I'm not married to a storage solution. I've been very happy with removeable SATA drives for storage, and high capacity storage, likewise some PATA drives.

By the way, I've been looking at this sort of stuff for a long time. Enterprise solutions used to be PCI-X boards with 128 mb of ram on them, that would function as a hard drive, for the stuff Handruin's link suggests using ramdisks for.

Problem is those boards came with huge price tags, and were pretty absurd.

I've waited a long time for the prices to come down far enough for me to think it was
reasonable...

David:
Is the ramdisk worth doing?
I wonder if any human can tell the difference, considering two SSDS, X-25M's in Raid 0?

Might be worth it to take the wear and tear of constant small writes off the SSD's?

 

[Stinker]

The new guy is either a longtime lurker, a sock puppet, or has really been doing his homework.

YES!

 

[timwhit]

YES!

Can I guess?

 

[Stinker]

Well, I'm definitely not a sock puppet.

 

[LunarMist]

The new guy is either a longtime lurker, a sock puppet, or has really been doing his homework.

It is not so difficult to figure this place out.

 

[ddrueding]

I must just be slow.

 

[Chewy509]

I must just be slow.

I thought I was the slow one around here?

 

[Handruin]

I know who it is. :-D

 

[LunarMist]

Not a sock puppet and you know. Odd.

 

[Santilli]

I miss Gary. Wonder what he's been up to?

Buck too.

 

[LunarMist]

Yes, I was thinking of Gary H. too, since the logo is goofy. He was the king of the socket puppets.

 

[Santilli]

I just can't imagine him asking us about SSD's. Knowing him, he'd have his entire company on SCSI SSD's LONG ago for boot drives..

 

[Handruin]

Probably not. Earlier SSD drives were likely horribly expensive (especially if you think they're expensive now). I can't see that making much sense to invest in unless you had a very specific need.